Rumor: Nylander like Matthews unextended. Nothing to see here.

[Morbo]

should be able to get Willy at a decent cap hit on a 3 year extension

Not sure I want William Nylander on a big ticket well into his 30s anyway

 

[Dekes For Days]

You think Tkachuk coming off a 104 point season and signing for 9.5 is comparable to Willie?

Contracts aren't based on one season. Sample size has value, and you're not going to be paid anything close to a consistent 100 point player when you were pacing for 60 points the season prior.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yes nylanders 3 hits in 11 games tells us how willing he is for contact

It is true that Nylander is not a big hitter. Nobody is arguing against that. That's fine, and very different from claiming that he avoids walls and corners, or misrepresenting what happened on a specific play.

 

[KPower]

Contracts aren't based on one season. Sample size has value, and you're not going to be paid anything close to a consistent 100 point player when you were pacing for 60 points the season prior.

Tkachuk’s value after his 104 point season is way higher than Nylander’s.

He signed a team friendly contract because he wanted to go to Florida.

Our stars don’t believe in team friendly deals.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Tkachuk’s value after his 104 point season is way higher than Nylander’s.
He signed a team friendly contract because he wanted to go to Florida.

Tkachuk's value after producing similarly to Nylander over the 3 years prior to signing was not "way higher than Nylander's". Demanding a trade as an RFA to a tax-free contender location that you hand-pick that requires an immediate signing to facilitate usually results in a pretty good contract, but people really have the wrong idea about what he was actually worth to start with. I'm not sure where people got the idea that you could have one inflated year and then get paid based exclusively on that, especially when we have so many recent examples of the exact opposite happening.

 

[KPower]

Tkachuk's value after producing similarly to Nylander over the 3 years prior to signing was not "way higher than Nylander's". Demanding a trade as an RFA to a tax-free contender location that you hand-pick that requires an immediate signing to facilitate usually results in a pretty good contract, but people really have the wrong idea about what he was actually worth to start with. I'm not sure where people got the idea that you could have one inflated year and then get paid based exclusively on that, especially when we have so many recent examples of the exact opposite happening.

So you think If Willie went to open market today he’d get the same as Matthew Tkachuk if he went to open market after last season?

 

[andora]

Meier signed for a Cap Hit of 10.54 on the current Salary Cap.

Nylander will be signing based on the projected cap hit of next year as he is under contract for this year.

Projected Cap: $87.50mm * 10.54% = $9.225mm

Cant sign on projections ! Thats lunacy!

The frustrating thing is a double edged sword. We have three exceptional talents and based on what they produce offensively.. the numbers being thrown around relative to %s and comparables ARENT crazy - they are in fact very fair when comparing to other players relative to production, types of production and ice time

However

It goes to the argument of cap augmentation and going forward heavy and if the surrounding cast can be properly built with what is left

Sadly it is tavares number for two more seasons that f***s everything up.. as it did from the beginning. NOT because it affected the 3 amigos numbers but everyone elses

 

[TheShape]

Treliving needs to put his foot down somewhere, Personally, I'd rather target the guy asking for a raise [Marner] who never even lived up to the first contract.

I don't know what it is, if it's marketing or Marner being the hometown kid or both, but something tells me this organization has not and will not even entertain the idea of moving Mitch Marner.

I've said it before: I'll take Nylander at a raise over Marner at his current cap hit. I'd also move both in a heartbeat if it made the team better + cap flexibility.

 

[613Leafer]

Our core players price themselves to a standard as if the Leafs belonged to a Champions League above the NHL fray and salary cap. Compared to the cream of the crop in the NHL each one of them expects to be paid million plus more than similar players with similar or superior numbers and championship pedigree and recently signed contracts.

But here we are with fans who seem to cheer this on without thinking about the downstream consequences that we might be able to keep them all if they keep up demands, will have worse players around them and we won’t ever build out a championship. It’s like having a collection of names is more important than actually doing anything on the ice, in the playoffs.

Yea, I cant wrap my head around how any fan who has watched this team struggle to put together a team with quality depth, the revolving door on left wing and in net, the consistent lack of a quality 3rd line, etc, see how that was all tied back to the last contracts for this group, and then turn around and have no issue paying Nylander 8 X 9.5-10M, despite very recent contracts to Meier (8 X 8.8M), Fiala (7 X 7.875M), Debrincat (4 X 7.875M), Forsberg (8 X 8.5M) etc, or Matthews 5 X 13.5M or 8 X 14.5M+ despite very recent contracts to Tkachuk (8X 9.5M), MacKinnon (8X 12.6M), Pastrnak (8X 11.25M), etc.

The media and half the fanbase act like Nylander at 8 X 8.5-9M or Matthews at 8 X 12.7-13M is a "discount", which is ridiculous. A "discount" would be Nylander at 8 X 8M and Matthews at 8 X 11.5-12M, which literally no one is asking for or expects.

 

[ULF_55]

What's there to be stressed out about?

Elizabeth said it best ..

What they make is ...

"I have said no such thing. I am only resolved to act in that manner, which will, in my own opinion, constitute my happiness, without reference to you, or to any person so wholly unconnected with me."

 

[Dekes For Days]

So you think If Willie went to open market today he’d get the same as Matthew Tkachuk if he went to open market after last season?

Tkachuk was an RFA, and wasn't on an open market. In fact, it was the most limited market possible where he would only accept signing with one team that he hand-picked.
But yeah, he would have been considered in a tier offensively that is comparable to Nylander today.
If Tkachuk was signing after this season instead, he'd pretty easily get more, but he's not.

 

[ULF_55]

Cant sign on projections ! Thats lunacy!

The frustrating thing is a double edged sword. We have three exceptional talents and based on what they produce offensively.. the numbers being thrown around relative to %s and comparables ARENT crazy - they are in fact very fair when comparing to other players relative to production, types of production and ice time

However

It goes to the argument of cap augmentation and going forward heavy and if the surrounding cast can be properly built with what is left

Sadly it is tavares number for two more seasons that f***s everything up.. as it did from the beginning. NOT because it affected the 3 amigos numbers but everyone elses

Neither Matthews nor Nylander have to sign based on projected Cap.

They can sign next year after the Cap is announced, which will be before July 1st.

 

[andora]

Yea, I cant wrap my head around how any fan who has watched this team struggle to put together a team with quality depth, the revolving door on left wing and in net, the consistent lack of a quality 3rd line, etc, see how that was all tied back to the last contracts for this group, and then turn around and have no issue paying Nylander 8 X 9.5-10M, despite very recent contracts to Meier (8 X 8.8M), Fiala (7 X 7.875M), Debrincat (4 X 7.875M), Forsberg (8 X 8.5M) etc, or Matthews 5 X 13.5M or 8 X 14.5M+ despite very recent contracts to Tkachuk (8X 9.5M), MacKinnon (8X 12.6M), Pastrnak (8X 11.25M), etc.

The media and half the fanbase act like Nylander at 8 X 8.5-9M or Matthews at 8 X 12.7-13M is a "discount", which is ridiculous. A "discount" would be Nylander at 8 X 8M and Matthews at 8 X 11.5-12M.

Maybe instead of discount it should be looked at as numbers that would pay them closer to the mean for production being compared to their equals

Matthews versus his comparables has been the 2nd most efficient 5on5 scorer on his 2nd contract when compared to over a dozen other top centers 2nd contraxt scoring rates from the cap era - he is only behind crosby.

The number that would put him right at being paid an average rate for primary 5on5 scoring relative to comparables would be just over 13million / season

Neither Matthews nor Nylander have to sign based on projected Cap.

They can sign next year after the Cap is announced, which will be before July 1st.

Oh for sure i was just doing the silly joke

 

[notDatsyuk]

So Nylander (not that I agree) has been the line driver and the 2nd line has been shit. Marner and Matthews are line drivers.

I can't see many ppl saying Nylander is a line driver.

Matthews, Marner, and Bunting, at even strength (3818 minutes), combined for 60 goals (27, 17, and 16).

Nylander, Tavares, and Jarnkrok, at even strength (3290 minutes), combined for 65 goals (31, 18, and 16). If you want to use Kerfoot instade of Jarnkrok, it's 56 goals (31, 18, and 7) in 3354 minutes. Yes, despite his linemates being shit, the line hasn't been bad.

I always laugh at the people who say Matthews and Marner are both line drivers, but then turn around and say they have to play together. (Not that you said that, just a general observation.)

The “quality and impact” of a player like Nylander relative to the “quality and impact” of a player like Matthew Tkachuk for example… who leads his team to the finals, plays with edge, leadership, scores the same number of goals. 20+ more points, who beat Nylander head to head. Or the classic Marner vs a Rantanen, the guy who scores 50 goals, 100 points, won a Stanley Cup vs our guy who should make more.

Now do the same, comparing Matthews to Tkachuk and Rantanen.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Matthews versus his comparables has been the 2nd most efficient 5on5 scorer on his 2nd contract when compared to over a dozen other top centers 2nd contraxt scoring rates from the cap era - he is only behind crosby.

At the same cap hit, every gm in the league would take McDavid over Matthews. None would care IN THE f***ING SLIGHTEST that Matthews had more efficient "5v5 production."

Good lord... the MADNESS fans here go through to rationalize the overpayments of our players.

We're belittled for this league wide. For stat mining insanity to argue our players are better than everybody elses. It's embarrassing.

And if f Debrincat was a leaf and Nylander on another team (all same stats), the narrative here would be that Debrincat was a proven 40 goal scorer TWICE and a higher ppg over career. We'd argue he's 2 years younger. We'd argue he deserves 10 mil plus even though Nylander signed for 7.8.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't know what it is, if it's marketing or Marner being the hometown kid or both, but something tells me this organization has not and will not even entertain the idea of moving Mitch Marner.

I've said it before: I'll take Nylander at a raise over Marner at his current cap hit. I'd also move both in a heartbeat if it made the team better + cap flexibility.

I have the same feeling about Marner. It makes no sense whatsoever and maybe it's just paranoia but nevertheless ...

 

[Stephen]

Our core players price themselves to the same standard as everybody else. They expect to be paid more than players they are better than, even if some of their own fans always think the grass is greener on the other side, and won't acknowledge their obvious quality because of unrelated team accomplishments or improper contract valuation techniques.

The only thing most fans are cheering on is keeping their elite players at prices that benefit their team, and are consistent with history. Something that will help in the pursuit of a cup. Would we all want super massive discounts on all our players? Absolutely! But we're trying to have discussions about what's realistic and fair.

Yes. Players who were pretty comparable at time of signing their respective contracts, likely to get comparable contracts.

Yes. Marner getting a slightly bigger contract than a worse player, consistent with the gap in their quality and impact at time of signing. Naming a bunch of misleading or team-based things other players did or were a part of post-signing that had zero impact on their contract doesn't help your case, for the record.

You’re very entrenched in defense of Dubas’ historic overpays despite the team falling short of all it’s playoff goals and now overlaying it with pre-rationalizing overpays before they’ve even happened.

At what point does the health of the Toronto Maple Leafs as a 22 man unit come into consideration when all this energy is focused on just a handful of players?

 

[Stephen]

Yea, I cant wrap my head around how any fan who has watched this team struggle to put together a team with quality depth, the revolving door on left wing and in net, the consistent lack of a quality 3rd line, etc, see how that was all tied back to the last contracts for this group, and then turn around and have no issue paying Nylander 8 X 9.5-10M, despite very recent contracts to Meier (8 X 8.8M), Fiala (7 X 7.875M), Debrincat (4 X 7.875M), Forsberg (8 X 8.5M) etc, or Matthews 5 X 13.5M or 8 X 14.5M+ despite very recent contracts to Tkachuk (8X 9.5M), MacKinnon (8X 12.6M), Pastrnak (8X 11.25M), etc.

The media and half the fanbase act like Nylander at 8 X 8.5-9M or Matthews at 8 X 12.7-13M is a "discount", which is ridiculous. A "discount" would be Nylander at 8 X 8M and Matthews at 8 X 11.5-12M, which literally no one is asking for or expects.

I accept the inevitable overpay as the price of doing business in this market to some extent. You need elite talent, you need support and there’s a fine balancing act, necessary evil and whatnot.

But for the life of me I can’t understand why a Leaf fan would actually go through lengths to suggest that bigger dollar amounts are appropriate when the team has hit its competitive ceiling as a result. I can only imagine this is the first core group for some fans and they’ve never experienced what it’s like for a core group that doesn’t work to be dismantled.

 

[ToneDog]

Contracts aren't based on one season. Sample size has value, and you're not going to be paid anything close to a consistent 100 point player when you were pacing for 60 points the season prior.

Again with the consistent 100 point player bullshit. Did you know MT has more 100 point seasons than Matthews, Marner, Tavares and Nylander combined?? The guy is also not afraid of his own shadow.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You’re very entrenched in defense of Dubas’ historic overpays despite the team falling short of all it’s playoff goals and now overlaying it with pre-rationalizing overpays before they’ve even happened.
At what point does the health of the Toronto Maple Leafs as a 22 man unit come into consideration when all this energy is focused on just a handful of players?

This has nothing to do with Dubas, at least on my end. Treliving is the one negotiating these contracts, and you're still out here talking about Dubas.
There were never any "historic overpays", and nothing indicates there will be moving forward.
The only thing I'm in defense of is the truth about how contracts work in the NHL, and the factual quality and impact of our players.

I'm just as upset that we haven't yet hit our playoff goals, but berating players, undervaluing them, making false claims about them, and throwing them away out of impatience when they can still benefit you doesn't help anything.

The health of the Toronto Maple Leafs as an entire roster and team is and always has been of the highest priority, and it's what my energy is focused on. These "handful of players" you dismiss are very important to the health and cup potential of the team overall, and we are a better team with them than without them, even at the rumoured contracts.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

You’re very entrenched in defense of Dubas’ historic overpays despite the team falling short of all it’s playoff goals and now overlaying it with pre-rationalizing overpays before they’ve even happened.

At what point does the health of the Toronto Maple Leafs as a 22 man unit come into consideration when all this energy is focused on just a handful of players?

Six months ago I made this post that has turned out pretty accurate so far.

Salary Cap: - Value of nylanders next contract

What would be a fair contract for Nylander Maybe someone could make a poll I think 5 years 10 million Why shouldn’t he be making what the bug boys are

forums.hfboards.com

I said that these players and agents will use the same nonsense they used as rfa's to rationalize getting massive overpayments. As rfa's they had ZERO leverage. Now they hold ALL of the leverage.

The numbers I estimated are pretty accurate so far based on insiders.

Those numbers were mocked by Dekes and the gang back then. Now they're defending such numbers.

It's bewildering to watch.

 

[ACC1224]

I don't know what it is, if it's marketing or Marner being the hometown kid or both, but something tells me this organization has not and will not even entertain the idea of moving Mitch Marner.

I've said it before: I'll take Nylander at a raise over Marner at his current cap hit. I'd also move both in a heartbeat if it made the team better + cap flexibility.

Probably more to do with being crazy talented and super elite.
Safe to say that he isn't being kept for marketing reasons.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The numbers I estimated are pretty accurate so far based on insiders.
Those numbers were mocked by Dekes and the gang back then. Now they're defending such numbers.

To be clear, you claimed in that post that Nylander would "not accept a penny less than 11m", and that Matthews and Marner would each get 15m.
Those numbers you claimed are not accurate at all, just as people calmly explained to you back then. Nobody is here defending that kind of compensation.

 

[andora]

At the same cap hit, every gm in the league would take McDavid over Matthews. None would care IN THE f***ING SLIGHTEST that Matthews had more efficient "5v5 production."

Good lord... the MADNESS fans here go through to rationalize the overpayments of our players.

We're belittled for this league wide. For stat mining insanity to argue our players are better than everybody elses. It's embarrassing.

And if f Debrincat was a leaf and Nylander on another team (all same stats), the narrative here would be that Debrincat was a proven 40 goal scorer TWICE and a higher ppg over career. We'd argue he's 2 years younger. We'd argue he deserves 10 mil plus even though Nylander signed for 7.8.

i should have qualified - in my post when i reference who he was compared to, it was only based on guys that have already signed their 3rd contracts, so not mcdavid. it was just seeing who produced what on their second contracts, and what they signed for on their 3rd contracts and then seeing how the 3rd contract money paid them relative to their second contract's production.

 

[Stephen]

Contracts aren't based on one season. Sample size has value, and you're not going to be paid anything close to a consistent 100 point player when you were pacing for 60 points the season prior.

Matthew Tkachuk had more 100 point seasons under his belt at time of negotiation than any Big 4 Leaf contract. In fact, his 2x 100 point seasons is more than all 100 point seasons put up by Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Tavares combined.