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What is your limit for a "Cap %" for Nylander

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Americanadian said:
Why does Nylander deserve the same cap hit % as Marner? Marner doesn't even deserve the same cap hit % as Marner.

It has already been discussed today in this thread but compounding mistakes doesn't lead to success.
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JT WN AM MM

Are all trying to milk every last spare dime out of this franchise. WN took the least amount of overpay out of them all.

If anyone thinks a cup is priority 1 out of this group... I will laugh. MM was the worst of them all.
 
Americanadian said:
Not trading Marner this off-season was a huge mistake but I put that on Shanahan for switching management at the most crucial point of that process. I would personally pursue a Marner trade through any avenue possible. If he won't waive then I'd let him walk to UFA where he can find out for himself that no one will pay him 11M (I am confident in this, I understand not everyone is). I would also trade Nylander today, for the best package of futures (I proposed Nylander+McCabe for Miller+Lafreniere yesterday). I would then re-invest funds into 2C, defense and eventually goaltending. Build from the middle outwards rather than spend 1/4 of the cap on two RW's (Nylander 10+Marner 10.9 over a 87.7M cap).
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I wanted to look into trading Marner after the MTL series when he was under contract for 4 more years and his value was high because of that but whatever.

The problem with the bolded is that it's not as simple as "invest funds". The only place you get players for nothing more than money is the UFA market and if you're not OK with overpayments, it's gonna be tough to build a winner that way.
 
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The longer it takes to get Nylander re-signed, the higher the chance becomes that he walks on UFA status.
 
Gary Nylund said:
The problem with the bolded is that it's not as simple as "invest funds". The only place you get players for nothing more than money is the UFA market and if you're not OK with overpayments, it's gonna be tough to build a winner that way.
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It depends what type of player you're looking for in UFA. There were plenty of good discounts available in UFA over the last couple of years (Rodrigues, Niederreiter, Demelo). They could also have used the pieces they spent in trades better. Ekholm went for the same price as McCabe.
 
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Americanadian said:
Why does Nylander deserve the same cap hit % as Marner? Marner doesn't even deserve the same cap hit % as Marner.

It has already been discussed today in this thread but compounding mistakes doesn't lead to success.
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My comment was geared towards Marner and you thinking he should not be paid more than $10.5m. I would not pay Marner the same cap% either. You need to go under 12% just to get to $10.5m on an $88m cap.
 
Gary Nylund said:
Mostly valid points. I would only say that the bolded h as not been true in the playoffs where the history has been that Marner does AWOL after the first few games and I'm not sure that Marner having a better season this time around is a high probablity.

Recent seasons also carry more weight that whatever happened years ago, I don't think there's any question that the gap between Marner and Nylander isn't what it once was.

As far as overpaying players, it's tough when you get to UFA status which is where you could argue that players get overpaid as a rule so overpay them, or maybe they walk. If I have to choose between paying Nylander 10.5x8 and losing him, I choose to pay him 10.5x8, even though that's maybe a slight overpayment.

The big mistake was overpaying Marner when he was nowhere near UFA status, we had leverage and we didn't use it. Now Nylander's agent is probably comparing him to Marner and I'd be doing the same thing if I was him.
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The mistake was signing nylander after the walk out on the team for three months. The next mistake is giving matthews all that money and only getting a 5 year contract. The next mistake was lying to marner that they don’t give out bonuses then giving them to matthews.

As far as marner and nylander there is no doubt that nylander at times can be as skilled as marner. The biggest difference is nylander can’t play one lick of defense. His defense is terrible. Two things you will never see in your life, a unicorn and Willy out on the ice in the last minute while defending a one goal lead.
 
notdoneyet said:
The mistake was signing nylander after the walk out on the team for three months. The next mistake is giving matthews all that money and only getting a 5 year contract. The next mistake was lying to marner that they don’t give out bonuses then giving them to matthews.

As far as marner and nylander there is no doubt that nylander at times can be as skilled as marner. The biggest difference is nylander can’t play one lick of defense. His defense is terrible. Two things you will never see in your life, a unicorn and Willy out on the ice in the last minute while defending a one goal lead.
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I don't mind signing Nylander when they did. The way I remember it was Nylander called with less than one hour to go to accept our offer.

The big mistake was giving Marner 11 million for 6 years, that was a sick joke of a contract. The bonuses OK, that was on Lou but that's no reason to give Marner that deal.

Yes Marner and Nylander are different players. Nylander's not good defensively, Marner goes AWOL after the first few games of the playoffs. For the regular season I take Marner but for the playoffs, I prefer Nylander.
 
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Gary Nylund said:
I don't mind signing Nylander when they did. The way I remember it was Nylander called with less than one hour to go to accept our offer.

The big mistake was giving Marner 11 million for 6 years, that was a sick joke of a contract. The bonuses OK, that was on Lou but that's no reason to give Marner that deal.

Yes Marner and Nylander are different players. Nylander's not good defensively, Marner goes AWOL after the first few games of the playoffs. For the regular season I take Marner but for the playoffs, I prefer Nylander.
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You mean the playoff nylander this year in 11 games

10 points 6 of those points were at 5v5 and he finished
At a -4 which means 5v5 he scored 6 points but was on the ice for 10 goals against. Oh should i mention he had 3hits

Marner in the same 11 games
14 points finished with a +7 and had 18 hits

Nylander may have called but he sat out for three months got all the money back that he lost while he chose to hold out.

They overpaid matthews and because Mitch lost his bonus and better point wise than matthews on their elc
They had to overpay him.

This management just keeps doing the stupid things that keep us from a cup. Not saying nylander isn’t worth it but he will then become overpaid like the other 3z.

Dubas ran this franchise into the ground and we just keep doing the same thing
 
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notdoneyet said:
You mean the playoff nylander this year in 11 games

10 points 6 of those points were at 5v5 and he finished
At a -4 which means 5v5 he scored 6 points but was on the ice for 10 goals against. Oh should i mention he had 3hits
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Contact wise he is garbage. I think he had some pretty bad outlier games that accounted for the horrific +/- (no excuses though)
notdoneyet said:
Marner in the same 11 games
14 points finished with a +7 and had 18 hits
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Could argue he really disappeared in the most important games. PP pts
notdoneyet said:
Nylander may have called but he sat out for three months got all the money back that he lost while he chose to hold out.
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Yep he did that.
notdoneyet said:
They overpaid matthews and because Mitch lost his bonus and better point wise than matthews on their elc
They had to overpay him.
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Sure dud and then really overpaid Marner after. Huge missteps.
notdoneyet said:
This management just keeps doing the stupid things that keep us from a cup. Not saying nylander isn’t worth it but he will then become overpaid like the other 3z.
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Exactly
notdoneyet said:
Dubas ran this franchise into the ground and we just keep doing the same thing
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He did a real number on us for sure.
 
notdoneyet said:
You mean the playoff nylander this year in 11 games

10 points 6 of those points were at 5v5 and he finished
At a -4 which means 5v5 he scored 6 points but was on the ice for 10 goals against. Oh should i mention he had 3hits

Marner in the same 11 games
14 points finished with a +7 and had 18 hits

Nylander may have called but he sat out for three months got all the money back that he lost while he chose to hold out.

They overpaid matthews and because Mitch lost his bonus and better point wise than matthews on their elc
They had to overpay him.

This management just keeps doing the stupid things that keep us from a cup. Not saying nylander isn’t worth it but he will then become overpaid like the other 3z.

Dubas ran this franchise into the ground and we just keep doing the same thing
Click to expand...
I mean playoff Marner every year when he disappears after the first few games.

Plus minus in such a small sample size means nothing, and Marner's 18 hits means nothing to me either.

Argue they had to overpay Marner if you like, but overpaying him by 1.5-2 million a year of 6 years, and also agreeing to 6 years instead of 7 was insanity.

Saying Dubas ran the franchise into the ground is extreme hyperbole. What it looks like to me is that this is M&M's team, they don't have the character and leadership qualities required for playoff success so as long as those two are at the top of the food chain, it doesn't matter what else Dubas did. Dubas bet on the core, 99% of GM's would have done the same. Not sure how he could possibly know that these guys play good for 82 games and 6 games of the playoffs and then they just stop in game 7. I still thought last years playoff roster was the best Leaf team I've seen in 50+ years, so did many other people. He made some mistakes, Marner's contract IMO was the biggest mistake he made but he did some good things too.
 
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Gary Nylund said:
I wanted to look into trading Marner after the MTL series when he was under contract for 4 more years and his value was high because of that but whatever.

The problem with the bolded is that it's not as simple as "invest funds". The only place you get players for nothing more than money is the UFA market and if you're not OK with overpayments, it's gonna be tough to build a winner that way.
Click to expand...
Personally I thought Marner was a dead man walking the day they signed that contract - obviously should have been.

This summer the dynamics changed drastically. The odds of getting worthwhile trade value now are so low its not worth spending time on. It's just a question of reallocating cap. Trade flexibility doesn’t help much because we don't have much to offer.

As you said it boils down to a question of whether or not we get get better team value through FA while watching a superstar walk for free. I think that's an interesting discussion but it's almost funny our incompetence persisted so long that our best bet to complete the era may be to just pay and keep him.
 
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10 would have been and would be fine but he’s currently in the middle of that thing he does, where he’s an elite player for 85% of the season and completely null for the remaining 15%.

At least it’s happening in November-December and not February-March like it usually does.

10 is okay, 9.5 would be great, if he gets 100 points he prices himself out and will leave, probably.
 
Americanadian said:
Pastrnak is the same age but his contract already started. Similar to Larkin, similar to Fiala. These players will all see these big deals expire at an earlier age than Nylander despite being the same age today.
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His contract already started, so it's not relevant? Got it.
 
Americanadian said:
Not trading Marner this off-season was a huge mistake but I put that on Shanahan for switching management at the most crucial point of that process. I would personally pursue a Marner trade through any avenue possible. If he won't waive then I'd let him walk to UFA where he can find out for himself that no one will pay him 11M (I am confident in this, I understand not everyone is). I would also trade Nylander today, for the best package of futures (I proposed Nylander+McCabe for Miller+Lafreniere yesterday). I would then re-invest funds into 2C, defense and eventually goaltending. Build from the middle outwards rather than spend 1/4 of the cap on two RW's (Nylander 10+Marner 10.9 over a 87.7M cap).
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Even better, let JT walk and move Willy back to his natural centre - better and cheaper C and only one overpaid RW.
 
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thewave said:
JT WN AM MM

Are all trying to milk every last spare dime out of this franchise. WN took the least amount of overpay out of them all.

If anyone thinks a cup is priority 1 out of this group... I will laugh. MM was the worst of them all.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure $6.9 was an overpay, but yes, Dubas really screwed up on at least the other three.
 
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Voodoo Child said:
10 would have been and would be fine but he’s currently in the middle of that thing he does, where he’s an elite player for 85% of the season and completely null for the remaining 15%.

At least it’s happening in November-December and not February-March like it usually does.

10 is okay, 9.5 would be great, if he gets 100 points he prices himself out and will leave, probably.
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11.5% of the cap is reasonable. If the projection of 87.5 m holds that’s 10 mill X 8.

if he doesn’t want to sign it now, you start the trade negotiations.
 
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