Nylander contract discussion - New Poll

[Leafs4Life77]

I'm a lawyer. I have tax lawyers in my office who spend a lot of their time devising tax planning structures that mitigate the amount of tax very wealthy people pay. I have seen lots of these plans. People in this position pay very expensive professional advisors for a reason.

As an aside, do you know what the biggest benefit is for NHL, NBA and MLB players who play on Canadian teams? They are paid in USD to live in CDN dollar markets. It's interesting that I never see that mentioned.

Probably because most things in Canada are 30% - 50% more expensive than in the U.S.

I'm not sure it's a benefit at all.

 

[ToneDog]

How about 5 goals in the first 17 games for an $11M player? That's Mitch at the moment. Matty just ended a four game goalless streak.

And that's just looking at this season so far. All players have goalless streaks.

P.S. Let's not forget that there are still people on these boards who criticize him for being afraid of contact and being a perimeter player.

Agreed and I stated just this morning that Mitch is taking a haircut if he signs this summer if he continues to play like he has. I have also stated it has been feast or famine for 16 and 34 but this was about Willie's play 3 seasons ago. I recall being one of Willie's worst critics after he signed and came in out of shape. I don't any more. He has earned my respect. I do comment on how much we should pay him but that is only because I do not believe we can win with 4 forwards eating half the cap.

 

[ACC1224]

Agreed and I stated just this morning that Mitch is taking a haircut if he signs this summer if he continues to play like he has. I have also stated it has been feast or famine for 16 and 34 but this was about Willie's play 3 seasons ago. I recall being one of Willie's worst critics after he signed and came in out of shape. I don't any more. He has earned my respect. I do comment on how much we should pay him but that is only because I do not believe we can win with 4 forwards eating half the cap.

I wouldn't think Marner would sign this summer if he has an underwhelming season by his standards.

 

[Drytoast]

Sure, but it becomes a matter of how best to do it.

Does throwing away your second-best player (and 4th highest paid if he gets <$11M) now, make more sense than waiting 1+ years to get rid of your (at best) 5th best player (who's likely still been making more)?

Dealing in panic 'we have to win now' mode when it isn't feasible is a large part of how we got in this mess in the first place.

I'm not in any kind of panic mode. The other beauty of the salary cap is that it demands every offseason that talent will be available to be acquired. Boston for example is likely going to need to move on from Swayman this summer. Both he and Ullmark are starters and will want Starter salaries. We will likely have to move on from Nylander.

At the end of the day all that matters is the talent you bring in versus the cost. Vegas has done an AMAZING job at bringing in the right type of solid talent and have built a very balanced, very hard working team. Boston is another one. They've lost big names over the summer last year. Did that matter? Nope! Because the locker room is healthy, their cap is well spent.

 

[Stephen]

Overpaying Nylander just perpetuates the problem. In THIS dressing room everyone is going to bounce their value against Matthew's cap hit. Which is why we are in this mess to begin with. Dubas set the cost too f***ing high. He set the bar with Tavares and then leapt over it with Matthews and Marner.

I dunno what Willie is. He can't play for shit in his own end. He doesn't kill penalties. He floats. He doesn't really play the body, go in the corners. He has great hands, a deceptive shot, great zone entries and can pass the puck.

He is great but he is certainly NOT a complete player by any stretch of the imagination. And for that I do not value him to be an 11M player.


And a goalie. Or haven't you noticed that we are back to letting in 1 bad goal a game regardless who's in net?

Moving on from Nylander to get a better defensive player that puts us into championship strata is a false dilemma because people are simultaneously imagining too many things all at once.

Let’s say you could trade Nylander for Cale Makar 1 for 1. You’ve certainly upgraded to the best defenseman money can buy, but your offensive firepower has taken a big hit without your leading scorer.

Let’s say you move Nylander to solve your depth problems. Well how often in the past did we dream of trading Bozak, Phaneuf and a 2nd rounder to get a real star? Why would we now want to do the reverse when it makes us a worse team up top?

Finally we have a one year Tavares overlap. Why wouldn’t we just keep our guys and let his contract run out and have all our cap issues alleviated? Why would we downgrade from Willie as he’s breaking out, lose him. Then lose JT and go from 4 stars to 2?

 

[Drytoast]

He actually plays well in his own end, and kills penalties. He doesn't hit much, but he does go into the dirty areas and take hits, and if instead of hitting he just takes the puck away, is that so bad?

He has game-breaking speed, great hands, an excellent shot, great zone entries and can both pass the puck and handle it without giving it away.

He doesn't kill penalties. He's put out there only at the tale end of the kill...sometimes. Marner and Matthews have been our penalty killers this year. Nylander has never been leaned on as "the guy" to kill penalties. He's very soft in our end and last game that softness led directly to a goal because he couldn't tie up his man who was heading to the net.

It's 8 years. We know what Willie is and isn't.

At 7 million a season, he's far from overpaid. I assume you're complaining about his next deal but it might make more sense to wait and see what the deal actually is before getting angry.


What does the list have to do with anything? You need a willing partner that goes without saying - I could also say that hockey pucks are black but that adds nothing to the discussion. And trading a rental player is the last minute pretty much by definition and yes, that is why we would get pennies on the dollar if we traded him.

Nylander has priced himself out of Toronto. I would only go as high as 9.5. That's it. Any higher and we are overpaying for what the talent can deliver. And I guarantee you he wants higher. Especially in that locker room.

Moving on from Nylander to get a better defensive player that puts us into championship strata is a false dilemma because people are simultaneously imagining too many things all at once.

Let’s say you could trade Nylander for Cale Makar 1 for 1. You’ve certainly upgraded to the best defenseman money can buy, but your offensive firepower has taken a big hit without your leading scorer.

Let’s say you move Nylander to solve your depth problems. Well how often in the past did we dream of trading Bozak, Phaneuf and a 2nd rounder to get a real star? Why would we now want to do the reverse when it makes us a worse team up top?

Finally we have a one year Tavares overlap. Why wouldn’t we just keep our guys and let his contract run out and have all our cap issues alleviated? Why would we downgrade from Willie as he’s breaking out, lose him. Then lose JT and go from 4 stars to 2?

We don't need Nylander's offense. We need Marner and Matthews to finally figure out the postseason. If neither can't we are not winning anything with or without Nylander.

I want a more balanced cap structure that actually gets more of a fair value from the cap cost from it's players. We have been overpaying our talent since Dubas signed Tavares. I refuse to support perpetuating a broken cap structure that makes the locker room toxic.

 

[Evilhomer]

Probably because most things in Canada are 30% - 50% more expensive than in the U.S.

I would imagine that most athletes structure their larger purchases to take place in the US rather than in Canada, but no doubt the daily cost of living in some Canadian cities would be higher than some US cities. It would be a very location-specific issue. For instance, the cost of living (and the cost of real estate) in Edmonton or Winnipeg is much less than comparable costs in New York City or LA, just as Toronto and Vancouver would be much more expensive than Raleigh or Tampa. My only point was that the tax impact is overblown. If it were as egregious as people claim it to be, we would see athletes in other sports where salaries are much higher flock to low or no tax states, but that generally doesn't happen.

 

[arso40]

He doesn't kill penalties. He's put out there only at the tale end of the kill...sometimes. Marner and Matthews have been our penalty killers this year. Nylander has never been leaned on as "the guy" to kill penalties. He's very soft in our end and last game that softness led directly to a goal because he couldn't tie up his man who was heading to the net.

It's 8 years. We know what Willie is and isn't.


Nylander has priced himself out of Toronto. I would only go as high as 9.5. That's it. Any higher and we are overpaying for what the talent can deliver.


We don't need Nylander's offense. We need Marner and Matthews to finally figure out the postseason. If neither can't we are not winning anything with or without Nylander.

I want a more balanced cap structure that actually gets far value from the cap cost from it's players. I refuse to support perpetuating a broken cap structure that makes the locker room toxic.

Huh? You sound like nylander personally did something to you you wouldn’t pay him over 9.5?? Thank god your not the one signing the checcs cause that’s crazy are you watching him you would rather bet on Matthew and marner figuring it out marner who looks like he’s hit a wall the last 2 years, the only two players that bring it in game 7 is rielly and willie your watching willie dominate like only mcdavid and mac have and you want to trade that and depend on that??

 

[rumman]

Yes that is how you solve the cap issue. Impactful ECL players but realistically you are not winning a SC. You can also save money in goal if Woll can take over from Sammy. Tre would also have to bat close to 1000 in his FA shopping and sign the right pieces. Not the way I'd build my team but it seems that is the way it has been since the rookie took over.

one of Dubas' problems was where he shopped, or where he had to shop..........

 

[m1ker]

I'm trading Matthews and Marner before I'm moving Nylander.

 

[rumman]

Moving on from Nylander to get a better defensive player that puts us into championship strata is a false dilemma because people are simultaneously imagining too many things all at once.

Let’s say you could trade Nylander for Cale Makar 1 for 1. You’ve certainly upgraded to the best defenseman money can buy, but your offensive firepower has taken a big hit without your leading scorer.

Let’s say you move Nylander to solve your depth problems. Well how often in the past did we dream of trading Bozak, Phaneuf and a 2nd rounder to get a real star? Why would we now want to do the reverse when it makes us a worse team up top?

Finally we have a one year Tavares overlap. Why wouldn’t we just keep our guys and let his contract run out and have all our cap issues alleviated? Why would we downgrade from Willie as he’s breaking out, lose him. Then lose JT and go from 4 stars to 2?

I know your only using Makar for Nylander as a example, but if there ever was a opportunity to get Makar for 88 plus plus plus you'd have to be crazy not to do it

I'm trading Matthews and Marner before I'm moving Nylander.

packaging them together would be the only way to get them to waive their NMC's that's for sure..............

 

[ToneDog]

one of Dubas' problems was where he shopped, or where he had to shop..........

View attachment 772356

Cheaper bargains at

MOEZ Binz & Liquidation​

Everything is $2 on Fridays. LOL.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm a lawyer. I have tax lawyers in my office who spend a lot of their time devising tax planning structures that mitigate the amount of tax very wealthy people pay. I have seen lots of these plans. People in this position pay very expensive professional advisors for a reason.

As an aside, do you know what the biggest benefit is for NHL, NBA and MLB players who play on Canadian teams? They are paid in USD to live in CDN dollar markets. It's interesting that I never see that mentioned.

OK I get that these tax lawyers mitigate the tax amounts, but still, I'm guessing they can't always eliminate tax completely, or can they?

Example (numbers pulled out of the air). A player with a 5 million salary in 2 different locations, one has a 20% tax rate, the other has a 40% tax rate. So without tax lawyer magic, in one location the net would be 3 million, in the other 4 million. After the lawyers are done, would the player take home 5 million regardless of which location he plays in? Or some amount less than 5 million but still, the same in both locations?

I imagine it's complicated and that different "structures" are legal in different states/countries but still, I have a hard time understanding how a lower tax rate would of no benefit whatsoever. Might it be fair to say that playing in a state like FLA with a lower state tax rate is beneficial, but perhaps not as beneficial as the the raw tax numbers might suggest?

Your point about getting paid in US dollars but living in Canada seems completely valid to me, thanks for pointing that out!

rant
And that's just another reason to be pissed at Dubas for the Marner contract (just taking the most egregious example). It's not enough that we front load the crap out of contracts on a regular basis, it's not enough that a guy like Marner has more endorsement opportunities that he'd have anywhere else, there's also the fact that he's paid in US dollars and spending Canadian dollars, all these things should be more than enough to compensate for a lower tax rate, even if that is still somewhat of a factor regardless of tax lawyers.
/rant

 

[ToneDog]

I know your only using Makar for Nylander as a example, but if there ever was a opportunity to get Makar for 88 plus plus plus you'd have to be crazy not to do it


packaging them together would be the only way to get them to waive their NMC's that's for sure..............

Would have to be a hell of an offer to get Makar.

 

[GoonieFace]

Another bonus; endorsement deals in a larger market.

Another bonus: smarties and ketchup chips. Who says no to those luxuries

 

[Gary Nylund]

packaging them together would be the only way to get them to waive their NMC's that's for sure..............

I like the way you think!!

Imagine the package we could get for M&M together. Matthews signed for 5 years, Marner sure to extend to be with his buddy. We could completely revamp the team, Nylander would the the focus on offense, of course replacing an elite #1 centre would be hard to way the least, hmm ...

 

[Gary Nylund]

Nylander has priced himself out of Toronto. I would only go as high as 9.5. That's it. Any higher and we are overpaying for what the talent can deliver. And I guarantee you he wants higher. Especially in that locker room.

We don't need Nylander's offense. We need Marner and Matthews to finally figure out the postseason. If neither can't we are not winning anything with or without Nylander.

I want a more balanced cap structure that actually gets more of a fair value from the cap cost from it's players. We have been overpaying our talent since Dubas signed Tavares. I refuse to support perpetuating a broken cap structure that makes the locker room toxic.

I think Nylander is worth more than 9.5 as of right now.

IMO we absolutely do need Nylanders' offence.

I agree with not wanting to overpay anyone and our cap structure might be less than ideal.

I would imagine that most athletes structure their larger purchases to take place in the US rather than in Canada, but no doubt the daily cost of living in some Canadian cities would be higher than some US cities. It would be a very location-specific issue. For instance, the cost of living (and the cost of real estate) in Edmonton or Winnipeg is much less than comparable costs in New York City or LA, just as Toronto and Vancouver would be much more expensive than Raleigh or Tampa. My only point was that the tax impact is overblown. If it were as egregious as people claim it to be, we would see athletes in other sports where salaries are much higher flock to low or no tax states, but that generally doesn't happen.

I think that might answer the question in my last post - the tax does have an impact, but the impact isn't as big as the raw numbers might suggest.

 

[Arzak]

Matthews - 13.5m
Marner - 11m
Nylander - 10.5m
Tavares - 5m

Seems pretty workable, especially if we make the massive assumption that Marner isn’t going to command a raise. Up it to 12 if we need to, but that Tavares cap relief gives us room to keep Nylander and this is a much better salary structure than paying those 4 guys 40m between them. Can you believe that after next year we’ll have them all under contract for just… 40m…

Shit.

What are you smoking?


Marner got $11M as RFA - no major award, not really close to top goal or point producer. The same Marner that's talking about the supporting cast stepping up after a failed playoff series?

It's not just the core 4 Mitch Marner? I can't even imagine this Mitch going 180 saying I don't deserve a raise.


Mitch is making $12M +. Too valuable on PK.

You build your championship team around your elite PK (mind you- elite player not PK unit). You're no-contact hockey playing, goal-challenged winger.

 

[Evilhomer]

Might it be fair to say that playing in a state like FLA with a lower state tax rate is beneficial, but perhaps not as beneficial as the the raw tax numbers might suggest?

Exactly. You are never going to eliminate tax entirely unless you are doing things that involve certain offshore jurisdictions (which wouldn't work for a North American professional athlete). It's just about mitigating wherever you can. There has been a lot of noise lately about CRA going after certain Blue Jay players who CRA alleges improperly contributed to their RCAs, but I'm not sure that RCAs were ever that important of a tool for athletes in Canada.

Another bonus: smarties and ketchup chips. Who says no to those luxuries

Why did the M&M go to school?

 

[Martin Skoula]

What are you smoking?


Marner got $11M as RFA - no major award, not really close to top goal or point producer. The same Marner that's talking about the supporting cast stepping up after a failed playoff series?

It's not just the core 4 Mitch Marner? I can't even imagine this Mitch going 180 saying I don't deserve a raise.


Mitch is making $12M +. Too valuable on PK.

You build your championship team around your elite PK (mind you- elite player not PK unit). You're no-contact hockey playing, goal-challenged winger.

I haven’t seen the other 3 cry during a game a single time, it really separates the man from the boys in terms of leadership. Those kinds of intangibles are worth a 1mil raise on their own.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I'm not in any kind of panic mode. The other beauty of the salary cap is that it demands every offseason that talent will be available to be acquired. Boston for example is likely going to need to move on from Swayman this summer. Both he and Ullmark are starters and will want Starter salaries. We will likely have to move on from Nylander.

At the end of the day all that matters is the talent you bring in versus the cost. Vegas has done an AMAZING job at bringing in the right type of solid talent and have built a very balanced, very hard working team. Boston is another one. They've lost big names over the summer last year. Did that matter? Nope! Because the locker room is healthy, their cap is well spent.

That's all somewhat beside the point, and you didn't answer the question I asked.

 

[Stephen]

He doesn't kill penalties. He's put out there only at the tale end of the kill...sometimes. Marner and Matthews have been our penalty killers this year. Nylander has never been leaned on as "the guy" to kill penalties. He's very soft in our end and last game that softness led directly to a goal because he couldn't tie up his man who was heading to the net.

It's 8 years. We know what Willie is and isn't.


Nylander has priced himself out of Toronto. I would only go as high as 9.5. That's it. Any higher and we are overpaying for what the talent can deliver. And I guarantee you he wants higher. Especially in that locker room.


We don't need Nylander's offense. We need Marner and Matthews to finally figure out the postseason. If neither can't we are not winning anything with or without Nylander.

I want a more balanced cap structure that actually gets more of a fair value from the cap cost from it's players. We have been overpaying our talent since Dubas signed Tavares. I refuse to support perpetuating a broken cap structure that makes the locker room toxic.

While I don’t disagree with the general and historic notion that more fiscal conservativism would have helped the Leafs a lot between 2019-now, the horse is already out of the barn and we are moving into a post flat cap world. So whatever notion of depth you wanted to solve by booting this year’s leading scorer is a pretty bad idea.

You say you want a more balanced cap. I think that makes sense in theory but not always in practice. Nylander at $11 million sure looks awful on paper but the $3-$5 million range can often be a disaster zone for contracts. Are we better off with a real superstar, or 2x Domi’s and Brodie. Or a Bertuzzi and Brodie. Or Muzzin and Bertuzzi. Or 3x Nick Ritchies. I can go down the list of those middle class players that didn’t work out.

At the end of the day, if we were swapping out Nylander for Cale Makar at least you could say we shifted our elite player to another position. But that doesn’t seem to be on the table at all. So why are we getting more balanced and worse to make a better budget on paper when the cap environment is going to be very different in 2 years time?

 

[notDatsyuk]

He doesn't kill penalties. He's put out there only at the tale end of the kill...sometimes. Marner and Matthews have been our penalty killers this year. Nylander has never been leaned on as "the guy" to kill penalties. He's very soft in our end and last game that softness led directly to a goal because he couldn't tie up his man who was heading to the net.

It's 8 years. We know what Willie is and isn't.


Nylander has priced himself out of Toronto. I would only go as high as 9.5. That's it. Any higher and we are overpaying for what the talent can deliver. And I guarantee you he wants higher. Especially in that locker room.


We don't need Nylander's offense. We need Marner and Matthews to finally figure out the postseason. If neither can't we are not winning anything with or without Nylander.

I want a more balanced cap structure that actually gets more of a fair value from the cap cost from it's players. We have been overpaying our talent since Dubas signed Tavares. I refuse to support perpetuating a broken cap structure that makes the locker room toxic.

"He doesn't as much' isn't the same as 'he doesn't' - I suppose it's pointless to mention he's the only one with a short-handed goal this year, or that with less than four times the SH ice time, Marner has been on for five times as many goals?

Main penalty killers have been, in order, Kampf, Marner, and Jarnkrok.

Are you referring to the play where Nylander had the player's stick tied up, but the puck went in off his skate?

You're right - it's 8 years and we know what Willy is - getting better and better each year, and now one of the best players in the league and probably the second-best player on the team. On the other hand, it's been 7 years with Matty and Mitch in the playoffs - we know what they are and aren't?

Based on your last paragraph, it looks like you're advocating getting rid of Tavares and Marner.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I'm trading Matthews and Marner before I'm moving Nylander.

I wouldn't say Matthews, but certainly Tavares and Marner.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I'm a lawyer. I have tax lawyers in my office who spend a lot of their time devising tax planning structures that mitigate the amount of tax very wealthy people pay. I have seen lots of these plans. People in this position pay very expensive professional advisors for a reason.

As an aside, do you know what the biggest benefit is for NHL, NBA and MLB players who play on Canadian teams? They are paid in USD to live in CDN dollar markets. It's interesting that I never see that mentioned.

But how expensive are the professional tax advisors in Canada compared to the US?