Nylander contract discussion - New Poll

[kevsh]

Otherwise watching Nylander walk because we thought for some stupid reason that we had a serious chance to win the cup this one last year with him is destructive and asinine.

100%. But we both know that's exactly what they'll do.

 

[Gary Nylund]

4) Where is the absolute "stupidity" directed at you in the following sequence of discussions?

You have repeatedly said that risking Nylander walking by not trading him at the TDL is "absolute stupidity".

Therefore, anyone that disagrees with you is according to you, "absolutely stupid".

Does that help?

 

[Pengu]

Stop with the sillyness. There is just no way management will look at the situation and trade Nylander if he can't get signed. Like they'll just give up on a season when all of the core players are in their prime which is basically what you'll do if you get rid of him as the team will be weaker.
None of the other 3 will be traded as they ALL have NMC and there is NO WAY any of them will waive no matter how much you wish for it. And Nylander will not get the return you think as for the same reason, he will NEVER agree to a sign and trade when he's a few months from UFA status. Add to that the fact that he has a no trade list which means he can basically nix any trade to a team he doesn't want to go to. Management has ZERO leverage on ANY of the core 4 and that's just the way it is...

 

[notDatsyuk]

McDavid is also overpaid. No one player is worth that much of the cap. Edmonton is experiencing the same issues we are.

I'm looking at this core group. And you have hardly a point if it's actually 7 years of the Matthews/Marner era, not 8.

If we continue to over pay our talent to stay here, rewarding mid performance at best in the playoffs, we are not winning anything. And it should be no shock to anyone here as we continue to get slammed by lesser skilled teams who simply have a work ethic.

"I don't know why we have problems starting on time?!"
"where were our stars? Why don't they show up?!"
"how come we always seem to get 'goalied'?"
"our defense is shit"
"we need balanced scoring!"

Don't ask these questions. I'm telling you why. All of these problems are downstream from overpaying players who haven't proven that they can compete and win when it matters. Willie has a 17 point streak. Willie has great hair. Neither of these things are reason enough to over pay the kid to stay in Toronto. If he wants anything more than 9.5...f*** off. Trade him for a few hard working players.

The point about McDavid and anyone else making top dollars is that this is the way the league, and other professional leagues, operates: too much to the 'stars' and too little to the trenchmen. I don't necessarily agree with it,but I understand it.

Nylander is likely to get $10M+ from someone. If he gets $10, he'll be underpaid by comparison to several other 'stars', particularly the ones on the Leafs.

I don't disagree with you on the structure or leadership of the team, or that we need at least one fewer $11M player, but if you want to complain about being overpaid (especially when it comes to playoff performance), start with Mitch and JT; if you want to complain about leadership, start with JT and Matty; if you want to complain about structure, start with Dubas and Keefe.

If you want to complain about hair, yes, it's Willy.

 

[ACC1224]

The point about McDavid and anyone else making top dollars is that this is the way the league, and other professional leagues, operates: too much to the 'stars' and too little to the trenchmen. I don't necessarily agree with it,but I understand it.

Nylander is likely to get $10M+ from someone. If he gets $10, he'll be underpaid by comparison to several other 'stars', particularly the ones on the Leafs.

I don't disagree with you on the structure or leadership of the team, or that we need at least one fewer $11M player, but if you want to complain about being overpaid (especially when it comes to playoff performance), start with Mitch and JT; if you want to complain about leadership, start with JT and Matty; if you want to complain about structure, start with Dubas and Keefe.

If you want to complain about hair, yes, it's Willy.

What?
Best hair on the Team, super elite, not even up for debate.

 

[ToneDog]

2019-20 PPG/cap hit:

Matthews 1.14/11.6=.098
Marner 1.14/10.9=.105
Tavares 0.95/11.0=.086
Nylander 0.87/7.0=.124

He certainly sucked compared to the other three.

Second in goals, and only one behind JT for third in points.

You are right but I was comparing him against Pasta. Pasta's number look great in both regular season and playoffs. Willie's < PPG in both regular season and playoffs. Pasta money for a guy who has zero 100 point and 50 goal seasons is nutz IMO. Worse when you already have 3 guys making 33m.

 

[81Leafs50]

im wrong about my opinion because JT is an amazing human being? he scores 50% of his points on the PP, his advanced stats 5v5 are not very pretty and hes not a fast player. like i said its my opinion but just telling me im wrong because of how you personally feel about him isnt exactly debate worthy stuff.

So let me get this straight....A point a game, perennial 30 goal scorer, PP lock to score, is not a good player because why? because hes not fast? thats not good enough.

John Tavares is a future HOFer, 6 pts away from 1000pts in the NHL and OH yeah hes 3rd in goals since being drafted into the NHL.

MORE GOALS THAN SIDNEY CROSBY.

This take is strictly a coerced hockey take from the media in regards to the cap. This is not an educated hockey take.

 

[Arzak]

Cause they never brought in an 11 mill player to throw there cap structure outta wacc

On their defence, Boston really tried to get JT in order to address ageing C squad.

They went as far as asking Krejci if he would wave so they could trade him (7M cap hit) in order to accommodate JT.

This IMO (and I'm speculating here) means JT was seriously considering joining Boston and it wasn't really about pyjamas and going home, but more about the best offer out there (and Leafs paying top $).

 

[ToneDog]

Probably not.

So now the real question is where do we go? IMO, 3 players making ~36m is simply untenable. If Marner doesn't waive his NTC, then we're either re-signing him at whatever bogus rate he wants or letting him walk. We don't want to let him walk any more than we want to let Nylander walk, so it feels like our choices are either trade Nylander or commit money and term to the big3.

The cupboards are bare after years of going all in. The value that we have in our franchise is almost entirely tied up in Rielly, Marner, Matthews, Nylander, and the few talented youngsters we have left. If either of Marner or Nylander walk as UFA's, we are losing a massive percentage of the organizational value we still hold. If we are fully locked in on Marner, then I suggest that our only choice is to trade Nylander because that trade is the only way to ensure we keep enough assets to remain competitive in the medium-long term. We went all-in last year, the only way to go all-in again is to make a visit to the loan sharks.

No doubt that trading Nylander causes us to take a step back this year, but honestly with the state of our defense and goaltending we should be considering a 1-2 year retool so that we can be serious contenders again for as much time during Matthews and Marner's primes as possible. Take a step back so that we can take two steps forward tomorrow.

They won't do it, but history will prove you are right. I was against the moves Dubas made at the TDL unless we could bring those players back for a second run. How's that looking now?

 

[Arzak]

So let me get this straight....A point a game, perennial 30 goal scorer, PP lock to score, is not a good player because why? because hes not fast? thats not good enough.

John Tavares is a future HOFer, 6 pts away from 1000pts in the NHL and OH yeah hes 3rd in goals since being drafted into the NHL.

MORE GOALS THAN SIDNEY CROSBY.

This take is strictly a coerced hockey take from the media in regards to the cap. This is not an educated hockey take.

View attachment 771643

Marchand 7th .., the guy is insane and that's without overhyping how elite on PK he actually is.

 

[PromisedLand]

Stop with the sillyness. There is just no way management will look at the situation and trade Nylander if he can't get signed. Like they'll just give up on a season when all of the core players are in their prime which is basically what you'll do if you get rid of him as the team will be weaker.
None of the other 3 will be traded as they ALL have NMC and there is NO WAY any of them will waive no matter how much you wish for it. And Nylander will not get the return you think as for the same reason, he will NEVER agree to a sign and trade when he's a few months from UFA status. Add to that the fact that he has a no trade list which means he can basically nix any trade to a team he doesn't want to go to. Management has ZERO leverage on ANY of the core 4 and that's just the way it is...

So whats the solution then?

Keep going at it status-quo and hope Willy signs. If he doesn't and walks then it is what it is?

Whats the over/under of Leafs at least making the conference finals given team defense/goaltending and more importantly the past playoffs performances, same coach and leafs' inability to navigate through netural zone trap or fast and heavy forecheck?

 

[notDatsyuk]

When were these contracts signed??

Pastrnak signed a year earlier than Willy, for about $300K less.

Ehlers signed a year earlier than Willy, for about $1M less.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Leafs always have "a chance". But if we are playing odds, then the odds are not great with "rolling it back" again and praying for a different result having made no changes or improvements over last year.

If you want to sustain the longevity of the talent of this team, then if you can't sign Nylander...ya gotta trade him and get SOMETHING worthwhile back. Otherwise watching Nylander walk because we thought for some stupid reason that we had a serious chance to win the cup this one last year with him is destructive and asinine.

Since Nylander is one of the key talents on this team (#3 if not #2), wouldn't signing him "sustain the longevity of the talent" as opposed to throwing it away?

Trading a pending UFA as a rental is not going to get you anywhere near his value.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

So whats the solution then?

Keep going at it status-quo and hope Willy signs. If he doesn't and walks then it is what it is?

Whats the over/under of Leafs at least making the conference finals given team defense/goaltending and more importantly the past playoffs performances, same coach and leafs' inability to navigate through netural zone trap or fast and heavy forecheck?

There is no solution. They backed themselves into a corner and will pay Nylander whatever he wants. Just like Matthews, just like Marner, just like Matthews last time, and just like Nylander last time. The "team" consists of a handful of players. They aren't letting any of them go.

They have zero chance of any real success barring a fluke like the Tampa series, but that's not happening multiple times in a row. The team is built on a faulty premise and it's not ending any time soon. But there's a generation of fans that seem to enjoy and be proud of this so it is what it is.

Their only hope is what it always has been. That their stars will outproduce their inflated pricetags and carry them in the playoffs. Have they ever come close to showing that they can do this? No. Is there any reason to think they can do it in the future? No.

The Oilers have McDavid and Draisaitl who actually dominate in the playoffs (not what people try to pass Nylander and Kerfoot off as ). Two guys who have carried their team through multiple rounds at great cap hits and they STILL haven't really come close to winning. But it's going to work with worse players and worse economics? Lol.

 

[Drytoast]

Since Nylander is one of the key talents on this team (#3 if not #2), wouldn't signing him "sustain the longevity of the talent" as opposed to throwing it away?

Trading a pending UFA as a rental is not going to get you anywhere near his value.

Depends at the price versus what he offers.

 

[notDatsyuk]

What?
Best hair on the Team, super elite, not even up for debate.

The poster I was replying to complained about his hair in a couple of posts, although I think he was complaining that it is too good.

 

[Arzak]

The point about McDavid and anyone else making top dollars is that this is the way the league, and other professional leagues, operates: too much to the 'stars' and too little to the trenchmen. I don't necessarily agree with it,but I understand it.

Nylander is likely to get $10M+ from someone. If he gets $10, he'll be underpaid by comparison to several other 'stars', particularly the ones on the Leafs.

I don't disagree with you on the structure or leadership of the team, or that we need at least one fewer $11M player, but if you want to complain about being overpaid (especially when it comes to playoff performance), start with Mitch and JT; if you want to complain about leadership, start with JT and Matty; if you want to complain about structure, start with Dubas and Keefe.

If you want to complain about hair, yes, it's Willy.

It can work but you have to keep your picks . Pick and develop, that way you can keep more stars on top dollar.

We fked that model by pretending RFA with limited options (because GMs don't fk each other using offer sheets that you can easily match) are the new UFA.

On top of that we went, fk it, who needs picks and traded all the picks for Foligno's.

And why? Because we are good enough now, just need that one #1 D, goalie, enforcer, leadership....

 

[notDatsyuk]

You are right but I was comparing him against Pasta. Pasta's number look great in both regular season and playoffs. Willie's < PPG in both regular season and playoffs. Pasta money for a guy who has zero 100 point and 50 goal seasons is nutz IMO. Worse when you already have 3 guys making 33m.

My reply wasn't about the Pastrnak comparison, but the idea that Nylander sucked in the full year after signing (2019-20), which is why my comparison was only to other Leafs.

 

[Drytoast]

The point about McDavid and anyone else making top dollars is that this is the way the league, and other professional leagues, operates: too much to the 'stars' and too little to the trenchmen. I don't necessarily agree with it,but I understand it.

Nylander is likely to get $10M+ from someone. If he gets $10, he'll be underpaid by comparison to several other 'stars', particularly the ones on the Leafs.

I don't disagree with you on the structure or leadership of the team, or that we need at least one fewer $11M player, but if you want to complain about being overpaid (especially when it comes to playoff performance), start with Mitch and JT; if you want to complain about leadership, start with JT and Matty; if you want to complain about structure, start with Dubas and Keefe.

If you want to complain about hair, yes, it's Willy.

The beauty of the salary cap is that it doesn't give a single f*** about the prestige of any player. It's simple math. What do you bring and what does that cost?

And we are seeing how that is playing out in the real world given the results of the teams that win. Vegas being the latest example of the teams that are successful. And they went up against yet another team that has great cap cost versus value.

Paying 13 million for Matthews, what are you buying? What is worth 3+ extra million that Matthews brings versus a 9-10 million player?

What does it do to the locker room when you have 3-4 players eating half the cap?

We need to stop this nonsense. At the end of the day I would have prefered Nylander over Marner. I would have prefered Matthews come in lower to extend. But Matthews is signed. Marner and Tavares have NTC. That leaves Nylander as the odd man out.

If we every want to win, this core needs to be broken. The overpaying versus value offered needs to stop.

 

[Lupuls Grit]

The only scenario in which the Leafs should trade Nylander during the season is if they believe they will not be able to resign him AND they can acquire a top defenceman to better balance out the team. If he walks, not a big deal. You use that eleven million dollars for that purpose. Sign Hanifin. Or Pesce. Maybe bring in Stamkos to play with JT! Nylander has been fantastic this season but he is more of a luxury than a need as a scoring winger.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The beauty of the salary cap is that it doesn't give a single f*** about the prestige of any player. It's simple math. What do you bring and what does that cost?

And we are seeing how that is playing out in the real world given the results of the teams that win. Vegas being the latest example of the teams that are successful. And they went up against yet another team that has great cap cost versus value.

Paying 13 million for Matthews, what are you buying? What is worth 3+ extra million that Matthews brings versus a 9-10 million player?

What does it do to the locker room when you have 3-4 players eating half the cap?

We need to stop this nonsense. At the end of the day I would have prefered Nylander over Marner. I would have prefered Matthews come in lower to extend. But Matthews is signed. Marner and Tavares have NTC. That leaves Nylander as the odd man out.

If we every want to win, this core needs to be broken. The overpaying versus value offered needs to stop.

I agree with this in principle, the problem I have is that I have little faith left in Marner. If it was Nylander instead of Marner we were "stuck with", I'd agree but since Marner is what he is, and Nylander looks like he might be emerging as a superstar, I say keeping him is our best shot. Once JT's contract is over, the big picture will look better than it does now.

 

[ToneDog]

My reply wasn't about the Pastrnak comparison, but the idea that Nylander sucked in the full year after signing (2019-20), which is why my comparison was only to other Leafs.

I had said he sucked for the first year and a half after signing in December 2018. Look at his stats for the first half of the second season. He had some bad stretches in November and December.

 

[Menzinger]

So whats the solution then?

Keep going at it status-quo and hope Willy signs. If he doesn't and walks then it is what it is?

Whats the over/under of Leafs at least making the conference finals given team defense/goaltending and more importantly the past playoffs performances, same coach and leafs' inability to navigate through netural zone trap or fast and heavy forecheck?

If the question to the front office is do you want to prioritize being as competitive as possible now, or tread water/ocus on futures, they're going to pick the first option.

They will either extend Willy now or will try in the offseason (risking him walking)

 

[Martin Skoula]

If Nylander would accept 9 million, that contract would already be done. Like yesterday.
I expect full term somewhere between 86-88 million. This is his set me up for life contract.

Even if he flipped burgers for a living he and his great grandkids would be set up for life. Doesn’t mean he won’t chase numbers, Hyman was even more set and he still did, but it’ll be more about team hierarchy than actual financial concerns.

 

[PromisedLand]

If the question to the front office is do you want to prioritize being as competitive as possible now, or tread water/ocus on futures, they're going to pick the first option.

They will either extend Willy now or will try in the offseason (risking him walking)

If Willy walks as a UFA; guaranteed Leafs SUCK next season as Leafs don't have anything of similar value to replace him; and that will be an asset walking free; it will be even more disastrous if Leafs exist in the 1st round again