Amazing Kreiderman
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2011
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Post-Game Talk: NY Rangers @ Penguins | 4/6/19 - 7PM - MSG
- Thread starter The Crypto Guy
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Ghost of jas
Unsatisfied
Yeah, I’ve kind of reached that point myself. It’s going to kill me seeing him get moved, but, in the long run, it’s probably for the best.
This is subjective.
Not that long could mean 3 years, could mean 5 years.
Either way, we're 1 year in.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
They played 42 one-goal games this season... literally over half the year... and played another 23*** where an empty net goal was scored. That's nearly 80% of the games where it was tied or within a goal in the last couple of minutes of the game. They're also 11th in the league in 3rd period goals while being 24th in total goals for.
Vancouver has 42 one-goal games, but only 10 games with an ENG.
*** this might not be precise. They scored 5 ENGs and allowed 18, but some of those may have come in the same game, but that definitely didn't happen too often, if at all.
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Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
That's true.
My bigger concern is Dolan.
I know a lot of people with season tickets and from what I've heard through the grapevine, we're gonna be really surprised by how few people are at Rangers games next season.
Somewhat true, in the end, cap or no cap, majority of winners have had at least two to three HOF players playing at the best to raise the Cup. The cap might have saved the league and leveled the playing field, but the haves still win over the havenots. It’s just the havenots have a shot at winning.
aufheben
#Norris4Fox
The Canucks also wasted a couple years dicking around because of the Sedins. Jumping the gun can create huge setbacks, but if you dally for too long, you're going to force yourself into a situation where you end up having to do that anyway. That's when teams start doing insane shit like trading Taylor Hall and Ryan O'Reilly (Edmonton did also have their $0.5 billion arena opening).
effen
Registered User
- Jun 27, 2003
- 12,743
- 10,951
If the Knicks/Rangers are for sale or to be sold, long term contracts (Panarin) are seen as liabilities and not assets. A clean cap sheet is massively preferred.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
PuckLuck3043
Stairway To Heaven
Oilers beat Calgary. I guess the world isn't ending after all. Whew.
smoneil
Registered User
Hey, context is lovely, so let's add some, hey?
I'll take it all the way back to the post-2005 lockout era (a total of 13 Stanley Cups):
More than half of those Cups were all won by three teams:
3 for the Penguins (09, 16, and 17)
3 for the Blackhawks (10, 13, and 15)
2 for the Kings (12 and 14)
The Penguins had the following tank-based top 5 picks:
-Jordan Staal (2nd OA--2006)
-Crosby and Malkin (1st and 2nd OA--2004 and 2005)
-Fleury (1st OA--2003)
-Ryan Whitney (5th OA--2002)
Whitney never lifted the Cup with Pittsburgh. Staal was on the team for the 2009 Cup, but not the two more recent ones. Staal also didn't play a significant role in the 2009 Cup (checking center and .5ppg pace). They won in 2009 in spite of Fleury, and while he was on the roster for the two recent Cups, he barely played in the 2016 post-season, and split duties with Murray in 2017. So it comes down to Crosby and Malkin. So to follow the Penguins approach, we would suck intentionally for several years, to the point that the team almost gets moved to the midwest. All of this will yield a nobody defenseman, a mediocre goalie who gets supplanted by his backup (who was drafted 83rd overall), a checking line center whose best season will be his rookie year, and hey, all will be fine as long as we--like Pitts--luck in to two generational talents, including the consensus best player since Gretzky in a year where the draft was the most random as its ever been. Sounds feasible.
The Blackhawks had the following tank-based top 5 picks:
-Kane (1st OA--2007)
-Toews (3rd OA--2006)
-Cam Barker (3rd OA--2004)
Barker was not on the team for the Cups in 2013 or 2015. He started the season with them in their 1st Cup (2010), but was traded well before the Cup run. So Barker is irrelevant. Kane and Toews are great players. No denying that. They were key contributors to all three Cup runs. Those Chicago teams won because of them AND the depth they surrounded them with, however. Those Chicago teams had 7 or 8 guys who all contributed (during one of the Cup runs, Toews was only the 5th leading scorer on the team).
The Kings had the following tank-based top 5 picks:
-Schenn (5th OA--2009)
-Doughty (2nd OA--2008)
-Thomas Hickey (4th OA--2007)
The Kings won in 2012 and 2014. Brayden Schenn (traded to the Flyers in 2011) and Thomas Hickey (never made the team and was waived in 2013) were no longer with the Kings, so the entirety of your argument here rests on Drew Doughty. Doughty is a very good #1 D. But he didn't win the Norris in either of those years (his only win was 2016). He didn't win the Conn Smythe in either of those years either (Quick--drafted 72nd overall--won in 2012, and Justin Williams--drafted 28th overall--won in 2014). Doughty was a key player, but the Kings won their Cups on goaltending and contributions from players like Dustin Brown (13th OA), Kopitar (11th OA), Williams, Mike Richards (24th OA), Jeff Carter (11th OA), Dustin Penner (Undrafted), Gaborik (3rd overall, but not by the Kings), and Jake Muzzin (Undrafted).
So again, their top pick got them a key piece, but they won that Cup on the backs of a 3rd round goalie and a bunch of guys drafted in the middle of the first round or lower. So the LA Kings model looks very similar to the Rangers model, outside of the fact that they got one useful player out of their three tank jobs.
Now let's look at the one-offs:
2018: The Washington Capitals have had 3 top 5 picks over the last 15 or so years:
-Alzner (5th OA--2007)
-Backstrom (4th OA--2006)
-Ovechkin (1st OA--2004)
Alzner wasn't even on the team last season. Backstrom and AO were big contributors. But they had been on the team for over a decade, never making it past the second round (often ousted by the Rangers), until last year. Two players who had AS big a contribution were Kuznetsov (drafted in the mid-20s) and Carlson (27th overall). So to replicate the Capitals strategy, we simply need to suck enough to land the top draft pick, do it in the right year to get one of the best players in the history of the game, be completely irrelevant for over a decade, and then win it all. Sounds like a plan.
2011: The Boston Bruins have had 1 top 5 draft pick in the last ten years:
-Seguin (2nd OA--2010).
To be fair, Seguin WAS on the roster the year they won the Cup. He was the [checks the numbers] 12th leading scorer on the team in the regular season, and their 15th leading scorer in the playoffs, where he only played half the games. So, unlike the Capitals, who at least got a CONTRIBUTION from their top picks, Seguin was barely a passenger. Who brought the Cup to Boston, then? These guys:
-Tim Thomas (217th OA)
-David Krejci (63rd OA)
-Patrice Bergeron (45th OA)
-Brad Marchand (71st OA)
and -Nathan Horton (a top 5 pick, but acquired via trade during his 2nd contract, not via tank).
2008: The Red Wings had the following tank-based top 5 picks:
-Nobody.
You need to go back to 1990 for Detroit's last top pick (Keith Primeau). Their Cup was won on the efforts of the following players:
Zetterberg (210th OA, also leading scorer and Conn Smythe winner), Datsyuk (171 OA), Franzen (97th OA), Kronwall (29th OA), Hudler (58th OA), Rafalski (Undrafted), Samuelsson (145th OA), Lidstrom (53rd OA), Holmstrom (257th OA), and Filppula (95th OA).
Not only does this team not have a top 5 pick in a key role, but they only have one FIRST ROUNDER among their top 10 scorers.
2007: The Ducks had the following tank-based top 5 picks:
-Bobby Ryan (2nd OA--2005)
-Stanislov Chistov (5th OA--2001)
Again, all of the key players on this team were either outside of the top 5, or brought in from other organizations. Of the guys actually drafted by the Ducks, you have: Getzlaf (19th OA), Perry (28th OA), and Selanne (10th OA). Even among the important imports, the draft pedigree isn't top 5: Giguere was drafted 13th OA by the Whalers and Andy McDonald was undrafted.
Scott Niedermayer (3rd OA) and Chris Pronger (2nd OA) were top 3 picks, but they were drafted by other teams nearly 15 years before Anaheim's Cup.
Finally, we have
2006: The Hurricanes had the following tank-based top 5 picks:
-Svechnikov (2nd OA--2018)
-Hanifan (5th OA--2015)
-Lindholm (5th OA--2013)
-Jack Johnson (3rd OA--2005)
-Andrew Ladd (4th OA--2004)
-Eric Staal (2nd OA--2003)
Now obviously, Svechnikov, Hanifan, and Lindholm couldn't have factored into the Canes 2006 Cup. I include them to make a point. The Hurricanes, in their 22 years of existence, draft top 5 on average once every four years. They have missed the playoffs in 13 of the last 15 years (despite having FIVE top 5 draft picks during that span).
Johnson never played for the Canes. Ladd played parts of three seasons before being shipped off to Chicago, and Ladd's contribution to the 2006 Cup was minimal at best (5 points in 17 games, and under 10 minutes TOI). Eric Staal DID contribute. He was the Canes' top scorer and one of their two best skaters in that run (28 points in 25 games). Their best player, and the reason they won the Cup, however, was Conn Smythe winner Cam Ward (25th OA--2002). Aside from Cam standing (and spinning) on his head, the Canes had a pretty balanced set of contributors, with 8 guys scoring 15+ points during the run. In addition to Staal, they had:
Cory Stillman (26 points)--6th OA by the Flames in 1992
Rod Brind'Amour (18 points)--9th OA by the Blues in 1988
Justin Williams (18 points)--28th OA by the Flyers in 2000
Matt Cullen (18 points)--35th OA by the Ducks in 1996
Mark Recchi (16 points)--67th OA by the Penguins in 1988
Doug Weight (16 points)--34th OA by the Rangers in 1990
Ray Whitney (15 points)--23rd OA by the Sharks in 1991
So again, like with the Kings and Doughty, the Canes top pick was a big contributor, but he was very much a member of a committee, and the rest of that committee was made up of guys drafted in the mid first and second rounds.
TLDR: You claim that teams have to tank and get top 5 picks to win because "every recent Cup winner" has done that. Don't bullshit a researcher.
They have NOT done that. What you have is:Penguins: A team that lucked into two generational players (in their 5 cracks at it)
Blackhawks: A team that won with depth, and that depth outshone one of their top picks
Kings: Got a really nice piece (going 1 for 3 in top picks), but won two Cups on goaltending and forward depth
Capitals: Had a trio of top picks for a decade and never went anywhere. Added a trio of lower-drafted guys, and win a Cup.
Boston: Had a top pick on the team, but won the Cup because of four guys who weren't even 1st rounders.
Detroit: Won a Cup with no first rounders among their top 10 scoring.
Ducks: Only top 5 picks on their Cup roster were imports in the latter years of their career.
Canes: Won a Cup with a good contribution from their top draft pick, but won because of their goalie and their collection of
players with less draft pedigree--Also, they seem to have tried to follow the "suck for talent" model since then, and
the result is that the playoffs seem like a foreign country to them.
I've played it over and over again but it sounds like Sam said Gentzel's stick is underneath the ass of Georgiev. Is it supposed to be pads?
BleedinBLUEsince92
Registered User
We’re not 1 year in. Retool/rebuild began with the Stepan trade. After this draft we will have had at least 7 1st round picks in the past 3 years...
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
ReggieDunlop68
hey hanrahan!
Hey, context is lovely, so let's add some, hey?
I'll take it all the way back to the post-2005 lockout era (a total of 13 Stanley Cups):
More than half of those Cups were all won by three teams:
3 for the Penguins (09, 16, and 17)
3 for the Blackhawks (10, 13, and 15)
2 for the Kings (12 and 14)
The Penguins had the following tank-based top 5 picks:
-Jordan Staal (2nd OA--2006)
-Crosby and Malkin (1st and 2nd OA--2004 and 2005)
-Fleury (1st OA--2003)
-Ryan Whitney (5th OA--2002)
Whitney never lifted the Cup with Pittsburgh. Staal was on the team for the 2009 Cup, but not the two more recent ones. Staal also didn't play a significant role in the 2009 Cup (checking center and .5ppg pace). They won in 2009 in spite of Fleury, and while he was on the roster for the two recent Cups, he barely played in the 2016 post-season, and split duties with Murray in 2017. So it comes down to Crosby and Malkin. So to follow the Penguins approach, we would suck intentionally for several years, to the point that the team almost gets moved to the midwest. All of this will yield a nobody defenseman, a mediocre goalie who gets supplanted by his backup (who was drafted 83rd overall), a checking line center whose best season will be his rookie year, and hey, all will be fine as long as we--like Pitts--luck in to two generational talents, including the consensus best player since Gretzky in a year where the draft was the most random as its ever been. Sounds feasible.
The Blackhawks had the following tank-based top 5 picks:
-Kane (1st OA--2007)
-Toews (3rd OA--2006)
-Cam Barker (3rd OA--2004)
Barker was not on the team for the Cups in 2013 or 2015. He started the season with them in their 1st Cup (2010), but was traded well before the Cup run. So Barker is irrelevant. Kane and Toews are great players. No denying that. They were key contributors to all three Cup runs. Those Chicago teams won because of them AND the depth they surrounded them with, however. Those Chicago teams had 7 or 8 guys who all contributed (during one of the Cup runs, Toews was only the 5th leading scorer on the team).
The Kings had the following tank-based top 5 picks:
-Schenn (5th OA--2009)
-Doughty (2nd OA--2008)
-Thomas Hickey (4th OA--2007)
The Kings won in 2012 and 2014. Brayden Schenn (traded to the Flyers in 2011) and Thomas Hickey (never made the team and was waived in 2013) were no longer with the Kings, so the entirety of your argument here rests on Drew Doughty. Doughty is a very good #1 D. But he didn't win the Norris in either of those years (his only win was 2016). He didn't win the Conn Smythe in either of those years either (Quick--drafted 72nd overall--won in 2012, and Justin Williams--drafted 28th overall--won in 2014). Doughty was a key player, but the Kings won their Cups on goaltending and contributions from players like Dustin Brown (13th OA), Kopitar (11th OA), Williams, Mike Richards (24th OA), Jeff Carter (11th OA), Dustin Penner (Undrafted), Gaborik (3rd overall, but not by the Kings), and Jake Muzzin (Undrafted).
So again, their top pick got them a key piece, but they won that Cup on the backs of a 3rd round goalie and a bunch of guys drafted in the middle of the first round or lower. So the LA Kings model looks very similar to the Rangers model, outside of the fact that they got one useful player out of their three tank jobs.
Now let's look at the one-offs:
2018: The Washington Capitals have had 3 top 5 picks over the last 15 or so years:
-Alzner (5th OA--2007)
-Backstrom (4th OA--2006)
-Ovechkin (1st OA--2004)
Alzner wasn't even on the team last season. Backstrom and AO were big contributors. But they had been on the team for over a decade, never making it past the second round (often ousted by the Rangers), until last year. Two players who had AS big a contribution were Kuznetsov (drafted in the mid-20s) and Carlson (27th overall). So to replicate the Capitals strategy, we simply need to suck enough to land the top draft pick, do it in the right year to get one of the best players in the history of the game, be completely irrelevant for over a decade, and then win it all. Sounds like a plan.
2011: The Boston Bruins have had 1 top 5 draft pick in the last ten years:
-Seguin (2nd OA--2010).
To be fair, Seguin WAS on the roster the year they won the Cup. He was the [checks the numbers] 12th leading scorer on the team in the regular season, and their 15th leading scorer in the playoffs, where he only played half the games. So, unlike the Capitals, who at least got a CONTRIBUTION from their top picks, Seguin was barely a passenger. Who brought the Cup to Boston, then? These guys:
-Tim Thomas (217th OA)
-David Krejci (63rd OA)
-Patrice Bergeron (45th OA)
-Brad Marchand (71st OA)
and -Nathan Horton (a top 5 pick, but acquired via trade during his 2nd contract, not via tank).
2008: The Red Wings had the following tank-based top 5 picks:
-Nobody.
You need to go back to 1990 for Detroit's last top pick (Keith Primeau). Their Cup was won on the efforts of the following players:
Zetterberg (210th OA, also leading scorer and Conn Smythe winner), Datsyuk (171 OA), Franzen (97th OA), Kronwall (29th OA), Hudler (58th OA), Rafalski (Undrafted), Samuelsson (145th OA), Lidstrom (53rd OA), Holmstrom (257th OA), and Filppula (95th OA).
Not only does this team not have a top 5 pick in a key role, but they only have one FIRST ROUNDER among their top 10 scorers.
2007: The Ducks had the following tank-based top 5 picks:
-Bobby Ryan (2nd OA--2005)
-Stanislov Chistov (5th OA--2001)
Again, all of the key players on this team were either outside of the top 5, or brought in from other organizations. Of the guys actually drafted by the Ducks, you have: Getzlaf (19th OA), Perry (28th OA), and Selanne (10th OA). Even among the important imports, the draft pedigree isn't top 5: Giguere was drafted 13th OA by the Whalers and Andy McDonald was undrafted.
Scott Niedermayer (3rd OA) and Chris Pronger (2nd OA) were top 3 picks, but they were drafted by other teams nearly 15 years before Anaheim's Cup.
Finally, we have
2006: The Hurricanes had the following tank-based top 5 picks:
-Svechnikov (2nd OA--2018)
-Hanifan (5th OA--2015)
-Lindholm (5th OA--2013)
-Jack Johnson (3rd OA--2005)
-Andrew Ladd (4th OA--2004)
-Eric Staal (2nd OA--2003)
Now obviously, Svechnikov, Hanifan, and Lindholm couldn't have factored into the Canes 2006 Cup. I include them to make a point. The Hurricanes, in their 22 years of existence, draft top 5 on average once every four years. They have missed the playoffs in 13 of the last 15 years (despite having FIVE top 5 draft picks during that span).
Johnson never played for the Canes. Ladd played parts of three seasons before being shipped off to Chicago, and Ladd's contribution to the 2006 Cup was minimal at best (5 points in 17 games, and under 10 minutes TOI). Eric Staal DID contribute. He was the Canes' top scorer and one of their two best skaters in that run (28 points in 25 games). Their best player, and the reason they won the Cup, however, was Conn Smythe winner Cam Ward (25th OA--2002). Aside from Cam standing (and spinning) on his head, the Canes had a pretty balanced set of contributors, with 8 guys scoring 15+ points during the run. In addition to Staal, they had:
Cory Stillman (26 points)--6th OA by the Flames in 1992
Rod Brind'Amour (18 points)--9th OA by the Blues in 1988
Justin Williams (18 points)--28th OA by the Flyers in 2000
Matt Cullen (18 points)--35th OA by the Ducks in 1996
Mark Recchi (16 points)--67th OA by the Penguins in 1988
Doug Weight (16 points)--34th OA by the Rangers in 1990
Ray Whitney (15 points)--23rd OA by the Sharks in 1991
So again, like with the Kings and Doughty, the Canes top pick was a big contributor, but he was very much a member of a committee, and the rest of that committee was made up of guys drafted in the mid first and second rounds.
TLDR: You claim that teams have to tank and get top 5 picks to win because "every recent Cup winner" has done that. Don't bull**** a researcher.
Penguins: A team that lucked into two generational players (in their 5 cracks at it)
Blackhawks: A team that won with depth, and that depth outshone one of their top picks
Kings: Got a really nice piece (going 1 for 3 in top picks), but won two Cups on goaltending and forward depth
Capitals: Had a trio of top picks for a decade and never went anywhere. Added a trio of lower-drafted guys, and win a Cup.
Boston: Had a top pick on the team, but won the Cup because of four guys who weren't even 1st rounders.
Detroit: Won a Cup with no first rounders among their top 10 scoring.
Ducks: Only top 5 picks on their Cup roster were imports in the latter years of their career.
Canes: Won a Cup with a good contribution from their top draft pick, but won because of their goalie and their collection of
players with less draft pedigree--Also, they seem to have tried to follow the "suck for talent" model since then, and
the result is that the playoffs seem like a foreign country to them.
So the overwhelming math still points to picking high increases the chances dramatically even if it leads to trading some of those great picks for other needs.
And during that time span, we had how many cups that with the greatest goaltender of the 21st century and Rangers history as well as other hard working and talented players who dreamed of playing in New York?
And how many have we had since 1967?
Stop rationalizing.
smoneil
Registered User
Stop bullshitting. We had guys who were taken top 3 by other teams. If Nash wasn't such a passenger during the Cup run, it's likely the Rangers would have beat LA.
The reality is that for the majority of the teams who have won over the last 13 years, the whole "winning" thing happened as a result of depth, a hot goalie, or some combination of the two. In the cases where the top-3 original draftees WERE the obvious difference between winning and losing (basically Pittsburgh), it was because they happen to have gotten two of the best players in the history of the league back to back.
You may want the team to suck intentionally for half a decade in the hopes that the next Crosby/Malkin duo comes along, but anyone with an ounce of logic should be able to see that the odds of that happening are absurdly low. Anyone with an ounce of fandom should also want their team to try to win every game they play. This thread has been page after page of people crapping on this team, the players (including taking pot-shots at guys who are going to go down as all-time Rangers, and for what? An extra 1% chance at a player who--historically--is more likely to bust completely than he is to be the next Crosby or Ovechkin.
ReggieDunlop68
hey hanrahan!
I want top 3 picks for a few years. Unless they are generational [Lemieux].
But what really irks me is how you not only over looked Rick Nash's contribution of "things" in the 2014 playoffs, but also grossly underrated his "stuff".
aufheben
#Norris4Fox
Lol so we're still doing the Rangers-are-becoming-[insert perennial bubble team] fearmongering? Zzzz.
You think they're gonna work just as hard after they've signed multi-million dollar contracts are out of the playoffs by January?
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EdJovanovski
#FreeRempe
I’m quite sure we’ve bottomed out already, highly doubt we’re this far down the standings next season
Jaromir Jagr
Registered User
Why would you think that? We are significantly worse than we were at the beginning of the year. The D is still trash, and there’s a decent likelihood Kreider May be moved as well.
At the very least Hayes and Zucc need to be replaced to assume we will be better next year and I don’t see that happening.
Even if we add Panarin, without a replacement for Hayes we are still likely worse.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
This team was out of the playoffs by December and they did.
You can suck and work hard. Again, not mutually exclusive.
That kinda makes me wonder if the letter was more about getting the ducks in a row to sell than it ever was about what was happening on the ice.
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