Now that it's done are you happy with the goaltending?

[Brobust]

Every goaltending decision made over the last week has some element of risk.

Georgiev has numbers just as bad as Murray and Samsonov.

Husso is inexperienced.

MAF and Talbot are both older and have been mediocre.

Campbell and Kuemper were asking for unreasonable term.

I feel like Murray/Samsonov offer similar levels of risk to those guys.

Am I happy? No. We're any of these other goalies going to make me happy? Also, no.

 

[ToneDog]

That's right. They needed new management and to evaluate at the end of last season. Then again at the end of this previous season, but for some strange reason Shanahan has married himself to Dubas. I have no idea if this is because Dubas was a board directed hire and Shanahan doesn't want to rock the boat or pull the trigger, but, it doesn't add up logically.

You understand whats going on in my books. We're all just passengers here on the SS Dubas though, so.

The SS Dubas seems to have sprung a leak. Only a matter when he goes down with the ship.

 

[PromisedLand]

In as many languages as Google images would allow me just so dubas fanclub gets the freakin' message

 

[Drytoast]

This tandem is the ultimate definition of high risk/high reward. There is both reasons for optimism and skepticism.

Murray has won 2 cups and when he is on his game, he is a top 10-15 goalie. But he also comes with a list of injuries and inconsistent play the last few years. He seems to be invigorated about coming to play for his childhood team and be reunited with his favorite goalie coach. We also have a new goalie coach in Sanford who seemingly did a great job in Vancouver.

Samsonov I haven't been overly high on but how can you not like this signing at that cap hit for 1 year and the potential upside that comes with it. Former 1st round pick that had some decent hype about him. He is still only 25, which is young for a goalie and he's healthy.

Our offense and Defense is good enough to carry us to the playoffs but it's the goaltending that is going to make or break this season and what will decide Dubas' fate. I feel that I both like this tandem and not feel confident in this tandem. We just need them to be better than Campbell/Mrazek. Ideally we need them both to be above a .910sv%.

*low risk, high reward.

Low risk because if 1 or both do not work out, their contracts are not binding and easy to get out from under them.

On the flip side, if Campbell shits the bed in Edmonton, they have a 5 year 5 million dollar contract to bury.

Absolutely worst case scenerio Kjellgrin (or however it's spelled) comes in and puts pressure on them and he played great last season.

 

[thewave]

It's tough, there are no easy answers. People are shitting all over Dubas and for sure he is responsible but going into the playoffs, I've liked our team every single year so not sure how much I can complain TBH. Maybe he's assembled the wrong mix of players but if you ask me which ones are the problem, I honestly can't tell you because like I said, I like our team every year and I've thought we're a top favourite for some time now.

So Dubas had an opportunity and seems to have got the mix wrong. Fair.

And we really played well last year I thought, we could have so easily beaten TB, for the first time in a long time I don't feel ashamed about the way we lost to that's something at least. It's not success, but saying fire everyone and tear it all down to me seems like a ridiculous POV.

Tending was and is a concern. The team is a force and it's understandable why people like it.

If I was in charge, I would have interviewed Dubas after the end of the season the last 3 years (especially the last 2) and depending on what he said his plan was, I may have kept him on or I would have stared to look for a replacement. I'm just a dumb fan though so what I will do is sit back, watch and hope, same as every other year.

Rational. I know I would have moved on from him sooner and certainly no chance he is here now.

I'm not too worried about Matthews leaving. Doesn't impact this season anyway so not going to waste my time on that right now.

Fair

You don't have faith in what the bookies say and that's fine. I think they're right, we are one of the best teams in the league and if I had to rate our changes of winning the cup, I'd put us behind COL and probably TB as well but beyond that, I can't name one other team who's chances I like better. Can you?

With the tender situation I am very concerned. Statistical improbabilities hold weight.

I don't believe in curses. We've lost 6 PO series in a row. The odds of that happening as it did are well below 5%. So many people are confident that the past dictates the future, I'm not one of them. We'll see what happens this season, it could another punch in the gut or we could win the cup. So much rides on the goaltending, we'll see what happens.

Not into curses either. The gamble is baked into the cake at net. We'll certainly see.

It's easy to be down about what's happened, I get it and I'm pretty down about it myself. But if I put my emotions aside and look at things from a distance, well it's like I said, we're one of the favourites to win the cup this season so it's not all bad, simple as that. And that being the case, I can't take those people seriously who think Dubas is a complete moron, I just can't. That said, I do believe this is his last kick at the can and how our new goalies play will decide if we break through this season or not and if not, I think Dubas is gone.

The primary reason so many people feel Dubas is a complete moron at this point are the rd1 exits and the tender position. Some of the greater depth concerns are getting worse year over year as well. We're bleeding assets to satisfy contender status rather than pragmatic consistent growth. What happens when we have little to no assets? Does it all just fold up and we rebuild? It's arguable we're already on the down swing now with last year being the peak.

Hope I am wrong.

*low risk, high reward.

Low risk because if 1 or both do not work out, their contracts are not binding and easy to get out from under them.

Absolutely worst case scenerio Kjellgrin (or however it's spelled) comes in and puts pressure on them and he played great last season.

Contracts are finite. It's high risk high reward unless you discount the time your core has on contract. They are not for certain staying here either, that changes the whole makeup of the team.

 

[Drytoast]

Contracts are finite. It's high risk high reward unless you discount the time your core has on contract. They are not for certain staying here either, that changes the whole makeup of the team.

A 5 year 5 million dollar commitment on a goalie like Campbell would be an albatross to try and get out from under without cost. And you have to play the game assuming that you can resign Marner and Matthews. So you need to set up your cap with that as an expectation.

If those two do not re-up here, then the team just gets blown up, you tank and collect picks. And none of this matters.

This is absolutely low risk, high reward. All Dubas is hoping for is that 1 of the 2 goalies works out. That's all he needs.

He has done well.

 

[thewave]

A 5 year 5 million dollar commitment on a goalie like Campbell would be an albatross to try and get out from under without cost. And you have to play the game assuming that you can resign Marner and Matthews. So you need to set up your cap with that as an expectation.

If those two do not re-up here, then the team just gets blown up, you tank and collect picks. And none of this matters.

Correct. That's not my argument. My argument is that a long term top 10 goalie should have been already in place to work in tandem with Matthews and the core. That's where Dubas has failed us above all else, really the organization is not developing quality tenders at all. That's a major area of concern that a competent GM would be on top of.

 

[Bloomberg]

I'd be happier if it was just Samsonov. Still don't understand adding Murrary's cap hit

 

[Drytoast]

Correct. That's not my argument. My argument is that a long term top 10 goalie should have been already in place to work in tandem with Matthews and the core. That's where Dubas has failed us above all else, really the organization is not developing quality tenders at all. That's a major area of concern that a competent GM would be on top of.

Who? Andersen? He was an 8.96 goalie with us. In Carolina with their D, he's what? a 9.30?

Campbell? I loved the kid but he's a gamble. He has mental/confidence issues and is injury prone.

Who is this phantom goalie that the Leafs had access too that they could have snagged? You are acting like the Leafs had access to any goalie they want...which is unrealistic and ridiculous. Teams generally protect their starters. Plus some goalies just don't want to come here.

I suppose they could have traded to get a top 5 goalie but it would have taken more than Willie to get one.

 

[Chief Leaf]

I don't mind the tandem.
Keumper -eye, yi eye!
Campbell- nice guy but he shit his pants and something got into his head as he seemed to avoid the crease last year.
Bobo at a 50% retention may have looked good but what we may have had to sent back the other waayy was probably too much of an ask.

I think Dubas did what he had to do, went with what was out there, and admittingly when he signed Murray and Samsonov came up just before the trade, I was question Dubas's straight b-line in signing Murray rather than Sammy. But,..Dubas landed him and now we have a tandem that imo is better than last years tandem.

We still need a few more adds imp but it is summer and what can I do about other tthan root for this team when it is finally constructed. It is goin to be a fun watch because everyone feels that the Dubas balls are on the line so,... he is going to do his best in order to save them.

And lol who know's..If we win the cup maybe he gets all drunk and loosened up pointing down saying "suck my balls, suck my balls everybody'!

 

[thewave]

Who? Andersen? He was an 8.96 goalie with us. In Carolina with their D, he's what? a 9.30?

Campbell? I loved the kid but he's a gamble. He has mental/confidence issues and is injury prone.

Who is this phantom goalie that the Leafs had access too that they could have snagged? You are acting like the Leafs had access to any goalie they want...which is unrealistic and ridiculous. Teams generally protect their starters. Plus some goalies just don't want to come here.

I suppose they could have traded to get a top 5 goalie but it would have taken more than Willie to get one.

That's for the GM to work out. We had so many assets at one point and cap as well, enough to land us a real long term tender and really. That was what needed worked out firstly not scrambling now.

 

[Drytoast]

That's for the GM to work out. We had so many assets at one point and cap as well, enough to land us a real long term tender and really. That was what needed worked out firstly not scrambling now.

Oh for crying out loud you are now being obtuse.

We had Andersen for 5 years, up until last season. He was considered a top 10 goalie.
He got out played by Campbell so we replaced him with Campbell who last year made the all star game.

So that leaves this summer. You can't resign Campbell and you have no cap space...and you somehow think we could have snagged a top 5 goalie? You don't know who or how...you are just having a tempertantrum for the sake of having a temper tantrum.

Ridiculous.

Dubas has done great given the circumstances. Covid caused a HUGE dance of musical chairs this offseason incase you hadn't noticed, due to almost every team that was successful last year being cap crunched. Including us.

The options were limited. I suspect they were after Fleury but he chose to stay in Minnesota. Once that was settled Dubas went with plan B, and then improved on it with Samsonov. That's a good GM.

 

[crump]

Question marks abound. The addition of Samsonov eases my worries a little. Both goalies have good "pedigrees" as people say, so it's not like they haven't played at an elite level at a distant time in the past. Both are years removed from the accolades and cups.

If the Leafs want to win while the window is open, they are going to need one of those 2 to rebound and have a stellar season or 2.

Both need to revamp their game, apparently controlled lateral movement is important now. Both tend to lose their net but I'm no goalie expert.

We all have fond memories of Curtis Joseph and Ed Belfour, 2 goalies that put us in contention for the years they were here. However, if my memory serves me, both were coming in on the hope they could rekindle their careers. Joseph had a few mediocre seasons in Edmonton and Belfour was a few years removed from his cup runs and had a suspect .895 % and 36 years old the year before signing with the Leafs. Newspaper stories and mugshots did nothing to build confidence in the former cup winner, especially with his slow start. Most of us thought we were in trouble in net.

I am willing to see what these two can do given a new start, and new goalie coaches. I have no choice.lol.

 

[thewave]

Oh for crying out loud you are now being obtuse.

We had Andersen for 5 years, up until last season. He was considered a top 10 goalie.
He got out played by Campbell so we replaced him with Campbell who last year made the all star game.

So that leaves this summer. You can't resign Campbell and you have no cap space...and you somehow think we could have snagged a top 5 goalie?

Ridiculous.

The GM is paid to make sure we have staff that is capable of assessing where we are from that perspective. They are paid to make sure that we don't end up in situations like this and when teams find themselves in something like this, people usually get fired. Tampa moved on from top 10 goalies in the past for instance, they just were on top of what was going on.

Smarter = better.
Intelligence = winning.

 

[zeke]

Happy isn't the word that's for sure.

If the sens had eaten the full 50% to give us extra cap to add a good forward id be happy-ish.

But I'm intrigued at least.

 

[Drytoast]

The GM is paid to make sure we have staff that is capable of assessing where we are from that perspective. They are paid to make sure that we don't end up in situations like this and when teams find themselves in something like this, people usually get fired. Tampa moved on from top 10 goalies in the past for instance, they just were on top of what was going on.

Smarter = better.

Incase you missed it, I'll repeat it again.

Up until this summer we have had a top 10 goalie. And so it's really only this summer that you can state that the Leafs had issues in net. So in this summer given the circumstances there were no options to trade or snag a top ten goalie that you could afford. So Dubas went with the next best option which is to gamble that 1 of these 2 goalies finds their game this year for us.

A 2 time stanley cup winning goalie and another goalie who was drafted in the first round. Odds are damn good ONE of them finds their game and if they do, then they too will be considered a top 10 goalie.

You are being ridiculous.

 

[Gary Nylund]

So Dubas had an opportunity and seems to have got the mix wrong. Fair.

Tending was and is a concern. The team is a force and it's understandable why people like it.

Rational. I know I would have moved on from him sooner and certainly no chance he is here now.

Fair

With the tender situation I am very concerned. Statistical improbabilities hold weight.

Not into curses either. The gamble is baked into the cake at net. We'll certainly see.

The primary reason so many people feel Dubas is a complete moron at this point are the rd1 exits and the tender position. Some of the greater depth concerns are getting worse year over year as well. We're bleeding assets to satisfy contender status rather than pragmatic consistent growth. What happens when we have little to no assets? Does it all just fold up and we rebuild? It's arguable we're already on the down swing now with last year being the peak.

Hope I am wrong.

Contracts are finite. It's high risk high reward unless you discount the time your core has on contract. They are not for certain staying here either, that changes the whole makeup of the team.

I wouldn't say we're on a down swing. Me may be a bit weaker than last season but I think COL, TB and FLA have taken bigger hits than we have. It'll all come down to goalies for us, we have two guys who have the potential to be really good and if one of them figures it out by spring, we don't have reason to fear anyone in the East. And as far as bleeding assets goes, we're in a better shape pick wise going forward then most of the other contenders, I believe only Carolina is arguably in better shape than we are.

Last year wasn't the peak, we lost in the 1st round. Maybe regular season wise but that doesn't matter to me. Finish 1st overall, great! Finish 9th, that's fine too as long as the team is healthy and ready to boogie when the playoffs start. Hopefully the peak will be when we win the cup next spring.

I also have a feeling that this will be the year that we will spend at the TDL if we can. It just feels like we need a win in the playoffs really bad from an organizational standpoint, we'll see.

 

[thewave]

Incase you missed it, I'll repeat it again.

Up until this summer we have had a top 10 goalie. And so it's really only this summer that you can state that the Leafs had issues in net. So in this summer given the circumstances there were no options to trade or snag a top ten goalie that you could afford. So Dubas went with the next best option which is to gamble that 1 of these 2 goalies finds their game this year for us.

A 2 time stanley cup winning goalie and another goalie who was drafted int he first round. Odds are damn good ONE of them finds their game and if they do, then they too will be considered a top 10 goalie.

You are being ridiculous.

Did you not say that Anderssen was not good enough while with us? Tampa moved on from Bishop. You don't think we could have worked something else out? The organization simply lacks foresight and are a reactionary mess. That's the point.

Right now we are spending assets to get worse. It's actually that bad.

 

[Drytoast]

Did you not say that Anderssen was not good enough while with us? Tampa moved on from Bishop. You don't think we could have worked something else out? The organization simply lacks foresight and are a reactionary mess. That's the point.

Right now we are spending assets to get worse. It's actually that bad.

Andersen was never the problem.

Our defense was. He proved that once he performed well in Carolina.

But we couldn't afford to take that chance and re-up Andersen on the off chance that both he and the defense were the problem so we smartly went with the cheaper option in Campbell.

What assets did we spend? I think we ended up ahead when it was all said and done with the cost of Myrazek versus the gains from Murray. Or it was a wash.

 

[thewave]

I wouldn't say we're on a down swing. Me may be a bit weaker than last season but I think COL, TB and FLA have taken bigger hits than we have. It'll all come down to goalies for us, we have two guys who have the potential to be really good and if one of them figures it out by spring, we don't have reason to fear anyone in the East. And as far as bleeding assets goes, we're in a better shape pick wise going forward then most of the other contenders, I believe only Carolina is arguably in better shape than we are.

For me, when your net is your weakness, it all becomes a gamble and I am not a gambler at all. Not in the least.

Last year wasn't the peak, we lost in the 1st round. Maybe regular season wise but that doesn't matter to me. Finish 1st overall, great! Finish 9th, that's fine too as long as the team is healthy and ready to boogie when the playoffs start. Hopefully the peak will be when we win the cup next spring.

I feel last year was peak because better depth shaping up and the tender position wasn't as much a gamble.

I also have a feeling that this will be the year that we will spend at the TDL if we can. It just feels like we need a win in the playoffs really bad from an organizational standpoint, we'll see.

Unless they switch to some far fetched restructuring scheme under Dubas (Not happening). I don't think we have a choice but to sell the farm to win and that includes doing so mid season to get a real tender if it's possible.

 

[Chief Leaf]

The GM is paid to make sure we have staff that is capable of assessing where we are from that perspective. They are paid to make sure that we don't end up in situations like this and when teams find themselves in something like this, people usually get fired. Tampa moved on from top 10 goalies in the past for instance, they just were on top of what was going on.

Smarter = better.
Intelligence = winning.

Dubas did exactly that and hired Murrays long time guru, adapted at the trade deadline after signing Murray because that writing was on the wall the way Dubas did set it up and eventually penned Sammy on the cheap. That is adapting and ensuring that our tender posoitions are filled, which also allows the oother young tenders time to grow and get better themsmelves.

and pssst,...You don't have to be intellegent to win because there are many factors that have to come into play in order to win and I feel Dubas is setting us up for the best possibility of winning. He has intellegence and is smart and is sticking to his style and ways of trying to produce a highly competive team......again. Just look around at the other clubs who know and realize we are on the cusp.

 

[Gary Nylund]

For me, when your net is your weakness, it all becomes a gamble and I am not a gambler at all. Not in the least.

I feel last year was peak because better depth shaping up and the tender position wasn't as much a gamble.

Unless they switch to some far fetched restructuring scheme under Dubas (Not happening). I don't think we have a choice but to sell the farm to win and that includes doing so mid season to get a real tender if it's possible.

The tender is a gamble, no argument there. At the same time, most other teams are in a similar spot, goalies being voodoo and all. Colorado for example, how confident can they possibly with what they have? At least we have two guys who both have the potential to be really good and if even just one of them figures it out by spring, we're good

I asked you before, who would you say has a better chance than us to win the cup this season? I'd say Colorado and probably TB but after than, I'm stuck. That's not such a bad place to be IMO. Can you name some other teams who you think are in better shape than we are for next season?

Going forward we're in good shape too as most of our core is in their prime. It's not all bad from where I sit and we're in better shape than most, both this season and going forward. The f***ing tide is going to turn at some point, it just has to.

 

[nuck]

I'd be happier if it was just Samsonov. Still don't understand adding Murrary's cap hit

As I have dug a bit further I find myself a bit more positive about Murray and less so about Samsonov. The goalies analytics I have seen don't like Samsonov at at all. 107 out of 119 for goals saved above expected. Most of the other bottom guys in that group are with weak clubs getting their asses shot off every night. Even in his good year he was only 42nd. Murray was 28th in this category last year in spite of the injury(s) and Jack had plummeted to 68th by the end of the season.

A grain of salt on this particular stat as players like Blackwood and Fleury have gone from one extreme to another in a single season. Samsonov can get better for sure, but if your best season for saves above expected is still in the negative, that isn't good. I guess Murray just needs to stay healthy and then it won't matter. A bit of sheltering will maybe give the kid a chance for some better outcomes.

 

[yzerman]

Samsonov can win Vezina next year that type of goalie but he can also be Jonas Gustavsson but most likely inbetween so you will likely get Bernier type of numbers.

 

[Zur En Arrh]

Djbiyas should have acquired a legitimate number 1 goaltender

awesome idea. where? if cambell got five x five (yuck) then the going price via trade for a num 1 (which there are like 5 or 6 in the nhl) starts at a price no one would of been happy with.

the risk of murray at two years with a third and seventh and sam at 1 year >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cambell at 5x5 AINEC