OT: Non-Hockey Sports Thread XI - Defense? Who Needs Defense?! (Wade Wilson Memorial Edition)

[TaLoN]

So...Timberwolves look good finally. I think I'd rank the GMs in Minnesota as

Connelly
Levine
Guerin
Kwesi

I have Kwesi above Guerin

 

[Digitalbooya]

So...Timberwolves look good finally. I think I'd rank the GMs in Minnesota as

Connelly
Levine
Guerin
Kwesi

Guerin has more grit than the rest combined though

 

[Sad People]

Jury is still out on KAM. Hes done a good job at getting rid of old and expensive contracts and clearing up cap space within the next 2+ years.

 

[thestonedkoala]

I have Kwesi above Guerin

Kwesi hasn't done really good at trades nor drafting

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I have Kwesi above Guerin

As long as he has people can stop him from trading down in the draft I guess.

 

[TaLoN]

Kwesi hasn't done really good at trades nor drafting

TJ trade was good
Has done ok in the draft
Coaching hires have been excellent.

My only complaint so far is he waited too long before turning over the on-field personnel on the defense. They started doing so this year and the upgraded speed along with the youth have been a huge breath of fresh air. Because he waited too long though, it's still paper thin.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

TJ trade was good
Has done ok in the draft
Coaching hires have been excellent.

My only complaint so far is he waited too long before turning over the on-field personnel on the defense. They started doing so this year and the upgraded speed along with the youth have been a huge breath of fresh air. Because he waited too long though, it's still paper thin.

Not taking Hamilton hurts. Even before Cine got hurt, he wasn't tracking great.

 

[TaLoN]

Not taking Hamilton hurts. Even before Cine got hurt, he wasn't tracking great.

Hence... ok, not great, but not bad either.

 

[Wabit]

I’ve been tooting the Penix Jr horn to the Vikings almost all year. I think he would be a great selection.

Limited viewing of him, but he seems like a QB that would be better off getting the same type of understudy treatment Love got, compared to a Fields just being thrown into the fire approach. IT would also give his body a chance to heal after all the injuries he's had.

The 5th year option bumps him up to a late 1st for a team that can take this approach with QB. Without looking I couldn't say what teams could even do this with a QB that is aging/contracting out in this window.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Limited viewing of him, but he seems like a QB that would be better off getting the same type of understudy treatment Love got, compared to a Fields just being thrown into the fire approach. IT would also give his body a chance to heal after all the injuries he's had.

The 5th year option bumps him up to a late 1st for a team that can take this approach with QB. Without looking I couldn't say what teams could even do this with a QB that is aging/contracting out in this window.

Totally agree. I've been saying the vikings should re-sign Cousins and draft a QB early. It's interesting to watch guys like Judd Zulgad and Declan Goff be so against that.

 

[TaLoN]

Totally agree. I've been saying the vikings should re-sign Cousins and draft a QB early. It's interesting to watch guys like Judd Zulgad and Declan Goff be so against that.

Cousins maybe opening the door to a "discount" to re-sign with the Vikes short term...

Kirk Cousins plans to "relinquish" to his upcoming free agency

He wants to win, and he thinks it can happen in Minnesota.

www.yahoo.com

"God has blessed me financially beyond my wildest dreams, so at this stage of my career, the dollars are really not what it's about," Cousins said.

He nevertheless recalled something a coach told him eight or nine years ago: "It's not about the dollars, but it is about what the dollars represent."

Seems like he knows he's not playing too much longer himself. Sign him to a discount for 2 years, draft Penix and let him learn in the wings.

 

[Wabit]

Cousins maybe opening the door to a "discount" to re-sign with the Vikes short term...

Kirk Cousins plans to "relinquish" to his upcoming free agency

He wants to win, and he thinks it can happen in Minnesota.

www.yahoo.com

Seems like he knows he's not playing too much longer himself. Sign him to a discount for 2 years, draft Penix and let him learn in the wings.

I saw that article too. There were a lot of buzzwords in Cousins' statements and it sounds like a politician on the campaign trail saying the right/good things (I'll be back and maybe at a discount) and shifting the blame (team and/or agent) if what he doesn't get paid a lot of money.

I really don't like election years, the cynic in me really comes out.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

With Cousins, he's 36/37 and coming off of an achilles tear. If he's expecting top level QB money after that, then I don't think he's being realistic. I think he'll sign for a respectable amount, that is fully guaranteed of course.

 

[thestonedkoala]

TJ trade was good

Hockenson trade was meh. Detroit got a similar tight end in LaPorta and for cheaper. Hockenson also got a record deal from the Vikings. Hockenson would make sense more on a competitive team than a...whatever the hell the Vikings have been doing.

Has done ok in the draft

His first draft is meh, and his second draft is okay. The best thing is probably Blackmon or signing Pace.

Coaching hires have been excellent.

The jury is still out on O'Connell.

My only complaint so far is he waited too long before turning over the on-field personnel on the defense. They started doing so this year and the upgraded speed along with the youth have been a huge breath of fresh air. Because he waited too long though, it's still paper thin.

He got terrible value in his first draft and his second draft is mediocre. We'll see if O'Connell takes the next step. Kwesi's career rides on this draft.

 

[57special]

Totally agree. I've been saying the vikings should re-sign Cousins and draft a QB early. It's interesting to watch guys like Judd Zulgad and Declan Goff be so against that.

The way the league has been trending is counter to the GB philosophy of having your QB prospect sit behind a starter/mentor for a few years. It's not about what's better for the QB's development, but saving huge amounts of cap space so you beef the team elsewhere on the field while you play your QB on a rookie contract. A decent backup(Case Keenum type, not the jokers we have presently on the team) will cost, what, 5M, instead of the 45M Cousins will cost? Put backup together with a Penix type, and have an extra 40M to spend on beefing up the O line, among other things. The hope is that by year 3 or 4 your QB comes into his own, allowing the team to compete while he is still on his rookie contract, like Russ wilson did in Seattle, Mahomes in KC, etc.

If you can afford putting an extra 20-25M into your offensive line/receivers, you can argue that it does more for your young QB's development, or at least results, than having him sit behind someone for 2-3 years, while the sands run out on his rookie deal.

 

[Digitalbooya]

The way the league has been trending is counter to the GB philosophy of having your QB prospect sit behind a starter/mentor for a few years. It's not about what's better for the QB's development, but saving huge amounts of cap space so you beef the team elsewhere on the field while you play your QB on a rookie contract. A decent backup(Case Keenum type, not the jokers we have presently on the team) will cost, what, 5M, instead of the 45M Cousins will cost? Put backup together with a Penix type, and have an extra 40M to spend on beefing up the O line, among other things. The hope is that by year 3 or 4 your QB comes into his own, allowing the team to compete while he is still on his rookie contract, like Russ wilson did in Seattle, Mahomes in KC, etc.

If you can afford putting an extra 20-25M into your offensive line/receivers, you can argue that it does more for your young QB's development, or at least results, than having him sit behind someone for 2-3 years, while the sands run out on his rookie deal.

I guess it’s just funny that the fanbase endlessly complains about not having a quality QB and they never take any steps to actually fix that problem. Now they are justifying it by means of spending money elsewhere. It’s like prioritizing wings and 2nd pair dmen over centers or top pairing dmen.

 

[TaLoN]

Hockenson trade was meh. Detroit got a similar tight end in LaPorta and for cheaper. Hockenson also got a record deal from the Vikings. Hockenson would make sense more on a competitive team than a...whatever the hell the Vikings have been doing.

His first draft is meh, and his second draft is okay. The best thing is probably Blackmon or signing Pace.

The jury is still out on O'Connell.


He got terrible value in his first draft and his second draft is mediocre. We'll see if O'Connell takes the next step. Kwesi's career rides on this draft.

The Lions didn't draft LaPorta with a puck from us, so he's irrelevant.
Also, you're not giving credit for the Vikes drafting Ty Chandler who has taken over the backfield.

 

[Sad People]

Hockenson also got a record deal from the Vikings.

And that contract will look better in a couple years when other TEs are due for raises. It only looks bad now because Travis Kelce has been underpaid his entire career. Whats the big deal even when the Vikings can afford it?

whatever the hell the Vikings have been doing.

Its been called a competitive rebuild multiple times by the FO for multiple years. Shedding bad contracts and aging veterans while winning games, and clearing cap space for the future ahead which they have been doing. Now if you agree with the "competitive rebuild" aspect of it is a different argument to be had. I wouldnt of gone down that route but its easy for me to say that when its not my job.

His first draft is meh, and his second draft is okay. The best thing is probably Blackmon or signing Pace.

Agreed his first draft wasnt all that great but he still found some players in the later rounds like Evans, Ty Chandler, BA33, Ed Ingram, something Rick struggled with during his tenure here. His 2nd draft was much better.

The jury is still out on O'Connell.

Disagreed. Is he on the level of Shanny, McVay. LaFlower, or Andy Reid? No. Hes not an "elite" offensive mind like those guys are but hes a good HC. He was winning games with a carousel at QB and I doubt Zimmer is doing that. Won a game on the road when his QB didnt even get a practice that week which is hard to do.

He got terrible value in his first draft and his second draft is mediocre.

Once again this is completely subjective depending upon the narrative you wanna support. IIRC, on Jimmy Johnsons trade chart he lost value but on KAMs trade chart he got value on that trade, KAM even said after day one of the draft that he got value on it. If you ask a lot of that "moneyball" people or look and their trade charts he again gained value. Hard to get that FRP in return when there isnt a QB on the board.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I guess it’s just funny that the fanbase endlessly complains about not having a quality QB and they never take any steps to actually fix that problem. Now they are justifying it by means of spending money elsewhere. It’s like prioritizing wings and 2nd pair dmen over centers or top pairing dmen.

Those fans are probably the ones that have severely underestimated Cousins in his time here.

If we had an early 20's pick or something, I'd be much more in favor of taking Penix. #11 is just a little too high to be fully onboard.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Those fans are probably the ones that have severely underestimated Cousins in his time here.

If we had an early 20's pick or something, I'd be much more in favor of taking Penix. #11 is just a little too high to be fully onboard.

You could have taken Levis last year at 23.

I just have little faith the vikings will do the best thing for the franchise. Trading up to get Jayden Daniels would be something I would be intrigued by. Drafting McCarthy in the 2nd round would be the ultimate vikings move.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

You could have taken Levis last year at 23.

I just have little faith the vikings will do the best thing for the franchise. Trading up to get Jayden Daniels would be something I would be intrigued by. Drafting McCarthy in the 2nd round would be the ultimate vikings move.

Different drafts, different players. Addison > Levis.

If they think Penix can be a star, then by all means. Never pass that kind of QB up. But it's an interesting spot with how many offensive players are slated to go in the top 10, and at positions we don't need.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Todd McShay just did a quick top 10 mock on a pod I listen to:

3 QBs
3 WRs
1 TE
2 OTs
1 Defensive player

 

[Wabit]

The way the league has been trending is counter to the GB philosophy of having your QB prospect sit behind a starter/mentor for a few years. It's not about what's better for the QB's development, but saving huge amounts of cap space so you beef the team elsewhere on the field while you play your QB on a rookie contract. A decent backup(Case Keenum type, not the jokers we have presently on the team) will cost, what, 5M, instead of the 45M Cousins will cost? Put backup together with a Penix type, and have an extra 40M to spend on beefing up the O line, among other things. The hope is that by year 3 or 4 your QB comes into his own, allowing the team to compete while he is still on his rookie contract, like Russ wilson did in Seattle, Mahomes in KC, etc.

If you can afford putting an extra 20-25M into your offensive line/receivers, you can argue that it does more for your young QB's development, or at least results, than having him sit behind someone for 2-3 years, while the sands run out on his rookie deal.

Yes and no. It's more of a necessity than a want by teams to play their QBs right away. All the top QB (prospects) are taken top-10, then after that there is maybe 2 taken in the next 30 picks. If you're picking in the top-10 you draft a QB because you're desperate for one. Non-top pick guys like Wilson and Prescot were supposed to sit and develop behind others but they took the jobs as rookies.

Yes, you want the cheap rookie contracts (at all positions) to step in and play right away so you can (over) pay other positions. QB is just the most visual (ad highest paid) position for that. The rookie contracts are the only way GB survived the season with $57m in dead cap and another $20m to a LT that played 1 game this year.

I don't re-sign Cousins to a big guaranteed money contract for the reasons you listed.

 

[Wabit]

Saban retired from Bama. This should shake up college football. Is there a timeframe for players to enter the transfer portal?

 

[thestonedkoala]

The Lions didn't draft LaPorta with a puck from us, so he's irrelevant.

But it shows you that you can get a good tight end without giving up a lot. Minnesota gave up a mid-2nd round pick and a top 3rd round pick for Hockenson. Also the Lions parlayed that pick into Hooker Henderson, but the Chiefs picked Rashaad Rice with that pick, who did well. It isn't irrelevant when you consider the draft capital Minnesota gave up for Hockenson and then the money.

Also, you're not giving credit for the Vikes drafting Ty Chandler who has taken over the backfield.

We'll see if Chandler takes over the backfield or not. I mean it isn't hard to beat out...Mattison, Nwangu and McBride. I mean they were banking of Mattison being the featured back.

And that contract will look better in a couple years when other TEs are due for raises. It only looks bad now because Travis Kelce has been underpaid his entire career. Whats the big deal even when the Vikings can afford it?

Because the Vikings have holes everywhere, especially on defense.

Its been called a competitive rebuild multiple times by the FO for multiple years. Shedding bad contracts and aging veterans while winning games, and clearing cap space for the future ahead which they have been doing. Now if you agree with the "competitive rebuild" aspect of it is a different argument to be had. I wouldnt of gone down that route but its easy for me to say that when its not my job.

The Wild are in the middle of a competitive rebuild themselves. Yes, I've heard competitive rebuild before, but you need a really smart GM to pull that off.

Agreed his first draft wasnt all that great but he still found some players in the later rounds like Evans, Ty Chandler, BA33, Ed Ingram, something Rick struggled with during his tenure here. His 2nd draft was much better.

Rick didn't struggle with it initially either. I remember as well Rick complaining he would draft guys that the coaches wanted and then not utilize them, making the picks look worse than they were. Don't know if they fixed that with Zimmer or not.

Disagreed. Is he on the level of Shanny, McVay. LaFlower, or Andy Reid? No. Hes not an "elite" offensive mind like those guys are but hes a good HC. He was winning games with a carousel at QB and I doubt Zimmer is doing that. Won a game on the road when his QB didnt even get a practice that week which is hard to do.

O'Connell WAS supposed to be an elite offensive mind, the next guy to come out of McVay's tree. The biggest test will be when he has an actually talented rookie quarterback and see what he can do with that.

Zimmer won with Keenum as QB and took the team to the conference finals.

Once again this is completely subjective depending upon the narrative you wanna support. IIRC, on Jimmy Johnsons trade chart he lost value but on KAMs trade chart he got value on that trade, KAM even said after day one of the draft that he got value on it. If you ask a lot of that "moneyball" people or look and their trade charts he again gained value. Hard to get that FRP in return when there isnt a QB on the board.

I mean yeah KAM is going to say he's gotten value on HIS trade chart.

Also hard to get a FRP in return when there isn't a QB on board?

New Orleans traded a first in 2022 and in 2023 to move up two spots in 2022 and didn't select a QB.

You don't move down 20 spots without getting a first back. I'd agree the value is there if Minnesota moved down a few spots, but the entire draft? Ridiculous.