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OT: Non-Hockey Sports Thread X - The Search is on! (Scramblin' Fran Edition)

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TaLoN said:
Dan Marino as well...


Is that why the most immobile QB in history also happens to be considered the greatest QB in history by most everyone, and still plays today at the age of 45? Mobility at the QB position is overrated and shortens careers. A QB's greatest weapon is still his arm at the end of the day, and getting it to the receiver accurately is still their best play. Doing so while standing in the pocket is still the most effective method.

Also, JJ isn't "bigger and stronger". He isn't as big as Moss, Megatron, TO, Carter, Herman Moore, Michael Irvin, AJ Green or even Rice. All of these guys were bigger than him and all played at roughly the same time (Megatron and Green less so, as well as Moore).

In today's game, because of the protection rules, smaller receivers have thrived so much more in recent times. That's why you don't see as many big WR's in today's game. Now you have guys like Chase, JJ, Diggs, Adams, Brown excelling so much more... and one of the biggest guys is Cooper Kupp at only 6'2" which would rank amongst the smallest of the list prior.
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I suppose it depends on what you mean by mobility. I think you're right, if you mean QBs like Lamar. It creates unnecessary hits on the QB.

If you mean the ability to move in the pocket, I would disagree with that as I believe that would reduce the amount of hits on a QB.

That being said, I think your overall point is sound.
 
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Minnewildsota said:
If you mean the ability to move in the pocket, I would disagree with that as I believe that would reduce the amount of hits on a QB.
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Movement within the pocket is even done by statues like Brady and Marino. Marino had a knack for feeling the pressure and stepping up in the pocket and throwing a dime. Couldn't run for shit, but was very elusive in small spaces.
So, yes, I mean QB's like Lamar Jackson and Jalen Hurts. I'm not saying they don't have any value at all, but they won't have the career longevity. I'll take a Dan Marino, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees pocket passer over them any day.
 
TaLoN said:
Movement within the pocket is even done by statues like Brady and Marino. Marino had a knack for feeling the pressure and stepping up in the pocket and throwing a dime.
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Right, which is why I wanted to define what "mobility" meant.

I think you meant scrambling QBs - which I would put Lamar under. If I'm wrong or misunderstanding, my apologies.
 
Minnewildsota said:
Right, which is why I wanted to define what "mobility" meant.

I think you meant scrambling QBs - which I would put Lamar under. If I'm wrong or misunderstanding, my apologies.
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I'm using it by today's standards... of "running QB's". Players that are so good at running - either via scrambling or design, they get a lot of rushing yards.

Josh Allen started as mostly a running QB, but he's developed into more of a pocket passer who can run. I think he's more dangerous today because of his willingness to stay in the pocket more than ever, and it will likely extend his career. His legs will go away long before his arm.
 
TaLoN said:
Is that why the most immobile QB in history also happens to be considered the greatest QB in history by most everyone, and still plays today at the age of 45? Mobility at the QB position is overrated and shortens careers. A QB's greatest weapon is still his arm at the end of the day, and getting it to the receiver accurately is still their best play. Doing so while standing in the pocket is still the most effective method.
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You mean the Brady that evolved as the game has evolved? There is always going to be an outlier or two; Rice and Smith (the greatest WR and RB) were also outliers as well. Mobility at QB is not overrated when they can by time to throw a ball. As mentioned players are getting stronger and bigger. It's an arms race and teams are looking for guys that can move around the pocket and maybe eat up some yards if need be. It gives them more weapons to work.

TaLoN said:
Also, JJ isn't "bigger and stronger". He isn't as big as Moss, Megatron, TO, Carter, Herman Moore, Michael Irvin, AJ Green or even Rice. All of these guys were bigger than him and all played at roughly the same time (Megatron and Green less so, as well as Moore).
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You mean Randy Moss that everyone said was a physical freak; for every Moss there are a dozen Troy Williamson's. Moss was a physical freak at the time. So was Megatron, TO, Irvin, AJ Green and even Rice to an extent. That is a big reason why they were dominate at the time. The cornerbacks were also smaller. A lot of things and not just going from a run base game to an offensive spread has changed the game.
TaLoN said:
In today's game, because of the protection rules, smaller receivers have thrived so much more in recent times. That's why you don't see as many big WR's in today's game. Now you have guys like Chase, JJ, Diggs, Adams, Brown excelling so much more... and one of the biggest guys is Cooper Kupp at only 6'2" which would rank amongst the smallest of the list prior.
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The protection rules play a very small part on why wide receivers are coming in and dominating like they are.
 
thestonedkoala said:
You mean the Brady that evolved as the game has evolved? There is always going to be an outlier or two; Rice and Smith (the greatest WR and RB) were also outliers as well. Mobility at QB is not overrated when they can by time to throw a ball. As mentioned players are getting stronger and bigger. It's an arms race and teams are looking for guys that can move around the pocket and maybe eat up some yards if need be. It gives them more weapons to work.

You mean Randy Moss that everyone said was a physical freak; for every Moss there are a dozen Troy Williamson's. Moss was a physical freak at the time. So was Megatron, TO, Irvin, AJ Green and even Rice to an extent. That is a big reason why they were dominate at the time. The cornerbacks were also smaller. A lot of things and not just going from a run base game to an offensive spread has changed the game.

The protection rules play a very small part on why wide receivers are coming in and dominating like they are.
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Mobility is lower on the list for QBs skills than reading the defense, making adjustments, and being able to make all the throws. The pass rush isn't getting to the QB any quicker than it did in the past. Most of the mobility in the pocket is just a small shuffle step, not a Steve Young scramble. The after the ball is released hits are gone too, so QBs can hold the ball that much longer instead of throwing it away to avoid a bit hit.

For all the bigger and stronger players are the hits are a lot softer on WRs. The safeties and MLBs used to just punish any receiver that dared come across the middle. Or in the Tampa 2 they would play the body on deep balls. There were a lot more dropped passes and receivers giving up on badly thrown balls in the past.

Even the bigger part is debatable. WRs are still 5'-11" to 6'-2", linemen are still 6'5" 300 lbs, The secondary is still 5'9" to 6'2", just comparing the '95 Cowboys team to the current Vikings team. The nutrition and strength coaches should be better now, so they probably are stronger and in better shape.
 
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thestonedkoala said:
You mean Randy Moss that everyone said was a physical freak; for every Moss there are a dozen Troy Williamson's. Moss was a physical freak at the time. So was Megatron, TO, Irvin, AJ Green and even Rice to an extent. That is a big reason why they were dominate at the time. The cornerbacks were also smaller. A lot of things and not just going from a run base game to an offensive spread has changed the game.
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Physical freaks that are rare... yet they were all in the NFL at the SAME TIME, yet now there are NONE of them? That's my point. The game has been opened up for SMALLER players to be able to dominate today.
 
Wabit said:
Even the bigger part is debatable. WRs are still 5'-11" to 6'-2", linemen are still 6'5" 300 lbs, The secondary is still 5'9" to 6'2", just comparing the '95 Cowboys team to the current Vikings team. The nutrition and strength coaches should be better now, so they probably are stronger and in better shape.
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Hell, one of the Vike's best corners coming out of the 80's into the 90's was Isaac Holt... they made the mistake of trading him in the Hershel Walker trade... he was 6'2".

As for the nutrition and strength aspect, I don't know if it's THAT much better today vs '95... but if you want to argue '85 vs today, I'll agree whole heartedly. I think by the mid 90's nutrition and strength training in the NFL had already come such a long ways, and only had small improvement since.
 
TaLoN said:
Hell, one of the Vike's best corners coming out of the 80's into the 90's was Isaac Holt... they made the mistake of trading him in the Hershel Walker trade... he was 6'2".

As for the nutrition and strength aspect, I don't know if it's THAT much better today vs '95... but if you want to argue '85 vs today, I'll agree whole heartedly. I think by the mid 90's nutrition and strength training in the NFL had already come such a long ways, and only had small improvement since.
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I'd guess the (non-steroid) supplements are better now. It's not something I know little about, so it's a total guess. :dunno:
 
Wabit said:
I'd guess the (non-steroid) supplements are better now. It's not something I know little about, so it's a total guess. :dunno:
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I don't think it would be steriods, but HGH when young to get a bigger frame. Complete speculation on my part. No evidence whatesoever to back that up.
 
TaLoN said:
To counter that though, the actual steroids were harder to catch back then. I think that would balance out.
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I remember roids being all the rage across sports. I didn't pay much attention that noise with girls being much more interesting to me as a teenager.
 
Wabit said:
Mobility is lower on the list for QBs skills than reading the defense, making adjustments, and being able to make all the throws. The pass rush isn't getting to the QB any quicker than it did in the past. Most of the mobility in the pocket is just a small shuffle step, not a Steve Young scramble. The after the ball is released hits are gone too, so QBs can hold the ball that much longer instead of throwing it away to avoid a bit hit.

For all the bigger and stronger players are the hits are a lot softer on WRs. The safeties and MLBs used to just punish any receiver that dared come across the middle. Or in the Tampa 2 they would play the body on deep balls. There were a lot more dropped passes and receivers giving up on badly thrown balls in the past.

Even the bigger part is debatable. WRs are still 5'-11" to 6'-2", linemen are still 6'5" 300 lbs, The secondary is still 5'9" to 6'2", just comparing the '95 Cowboys team to the current Vikings team. The nutrition and strength coaches should be better now, so they probably are stronger and in better shape.
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Agreed. The key thing is to be able to squeeze another second or two out of the play, not run it for 43 yards. Rogers is that type. Also, having the smarts to identify what is going on pre snap, then adjusting, makes a lot of difference. Very few running QB's have long careers. Brady, Montana, Marino, Rogers, Brees, Manning, have the longevity.

Daunte Culpepper looked unstoppable as a running QB weighing 280.... then he wasn't because his knees were got to. Tarkenton was a runner, but he was often doing it to escape the rush, and gain time.
 
Wabit said:
The after the ball is released hits are gone too, so QBs can hold the ball that much longer instead of throwing it away to avoid a bit hit.
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You mean they got rid of cheap shots like this one that virtually ended the career of Jim McMahon? (effectively ended his all-pro caliber ability anyway, his arm never recovered, supposedly his C1 and C2 vertebrae got twisted in the hit, he had spinal fluid flowing in the wrong direction)


 
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TaLoN said:
You mean they got rid of cheap shots like this one that virtually ended the career of Jim McMahon? (effectively ended his all-pro caliber ability anyway, his arm never recovered, supposedly his C1 and C2 vertebrae got twisted in the hit, he had spinal fluid flowing in the wrong direction)


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That was just a dirty/cheap shot on McMahon not any type of football play. It wasn't allowed within the rules, like ever. Really, a player could do the same thing today and it would only be a 15 yd penalty, game ejection, and probably a lifetime ban instead of a couple of games. I still find it ironic that he finished his career with the Packers.

The Saints putting a bounty on Farve in the Playoffs (among other bountygate targets) is a better example of why the new QB protection rules exist.
 
What a great day!

✅ Packers rail the Vikings
✅ Jaire Alexander completely shuts down Jefferson
✅ Alexander does the Griddy dance to clown on Jefferson :laugh:
✅ Jordan Love gets to finish the game out.

 
Digitalbooya said:
What a great day!

✅ Packers rail the Vikings
✅ Jaire Alexander completely shuts down Jefferson
✅ Alexander does the Griddy dance to clown on Jefferson :laugh:
✅ Jordan Love gets to finish the game out.

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Except that was a blatant PI and Green Bay has gotten that call 99/100 in the last 10 years
 
Dr Jan Itor said:
And Washington loses.
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Probably will lose to Detroit next week, so it probably won’t matter. Just nice to have good moments in a pretty forgettable year.
f7ben said:
Except that was a blatant PI and Green Bay has gotten that call 99/100 in the last 10 years
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Nah. Your guy got away with holding Watson on what would have been a house call for 6. They’ve been letting that stuff go for weeks. Dolphins defenders did that all game last week to Packers receivers
 
Digitalbooya said:
Probably will lose to Detroit next week, so it probably won’t matter. Just nice to have good moments in a pretty forgettable year.
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The nice thing I've taken away from the season is they have a dangerous kick returner for the first time since Desmond Howard. Maybe there was someone else? The return game for years was mostly me hoping they just fair catch it and don't take a penalty.
 
Rough game to lose your top 5 RT and your backup center. Hopefully they can get Oneill and Bradbury (never thought id be saying that) before the playoffs.
 
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