Player Discussion: Noah Dobson

CupHolders

Really Fries My Bananas!
Aug 8, 2006
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He's too soft, weak gets pushed around on the boards and in front of the net. He's a big frame kid and doesn't use it at all. Not saying he has to fight, but damn, he's what 6'4 200. needs to get stronger.
Dobson is tall and has a big frame. But his criticism going back to junior was that he has a slender build and needs to gain more mass. So does he need to get stronger to be more effective. Yes he does.

But to be fair your comment was about his temperament: No emtions, no fire, no mean streak at all.

I agree with @Richie Daggers Crime I don’t get the criticism. Showing emotion makes for good tv I suppose. But it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with how good a player is. And successful teams have been so with all types of players and temperaments.
 
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BillD

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Feb 12, 2004
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Dobson is as soft as a puff of wind.
What's worse is that he has no ability to play pucks close to his feet.
He just does not seem to have a move to protect or freeze a puck at his feet that is too close to get a stick on. Having him at the blue line like that usually leads to bad things.
 

doublechili

For all intensive purposes, your nuts
Apr 11, 2006
19,012
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Dobson is as soft as a puff of wind.
What's worse is that he has no ability to play pucks close to his feet.
Sounds like they just need to get him a good, heavy set of chains, and a shorter stick. Problem solved.
 

YearlyLottery

The Pooch Report
Feb 7, 2013
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While I have spent a large part of the season saying how I believe Dobson will be exposed come playoff time (we are seeing it now), I still believe he will be fine. He's never seen this level of play in the role he is currently in. He will struggle and then learn from it.

He does not need to be a physical specimen like Romanov is. He needs to continue to use his frame to successfully keep the opposition to the outside.
 

Glorydays22

Registered User
Nov 21, 2011
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I mean, you can see that "he should get stronger" and "he needs to show more emotions and fire" are two different things, right?
Yes, that's for the clarification. A "slip" of some words, I guess you would say. But regardless, he needs to work on his game. He's not that offensively superior that his defense can be that weak.
 

seafoam

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Couple different points here…

- Even if Dobson gets stronger, it will be of no benefit unless he actually uses his frame to seal off defenders/be vigilant in boxing out/etc. I’d rather see him focus on playing the body more at his current size and focusing on positioning than focus on just “putting on more weight” and hoping it fixes everything .

- For me, he gets caught puck chasing/watching instead of staying in the position the system says he should be in. It’s almost like he’s afraid to be on the wrong side of a goal and is coming out of position to compensate for teammates blowing assignments.
 

13th Floor

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I mean, you can see that "he should get stronger" and "he needs to show more emotions and fire" are two different things, right?

Agreed that these are two different things, but why are these not both valid criticisms of his game? I don't think "showing emotion and fire" means crying like Ryan Smyth. I think it means having a mean streak to your game where you thrash people in front of the net and initiate contact on the boards. He shies away from all that shit like he's allergic to contact.

Two distinct plays I remember from last night:

One was the 2nd goal against where he gave up the entire front of the net on a basically nothing play. He was looking at the puck at his feet instead of looking to put a body on someone and clear the net. Second play is something that happens all the time with him. Puck goes behind our net as the other team forechecks. Dobson does a play where he tries to kind of fake carrying the puck one way and then tries to go the other way while ducking under or spinning away from contact. Yesterday I recall it because they had just switched the camera to behind the net and you saw it clearly. The move didn't work, it was low percentage, he turned over the puck, and he was taken out of the play from a check. To me, that's where the "fire" and "mean streak" come in. Maybe there's semantics in what adjectives we are using, but the intent is clear: he has no interest in playing the body. He needs to absorb that contact and make a safe easy play, but he's trying to skill his way out of it.

He's 6'4 and 195.

For comaprison:
Pelech 6'2 210
Pulock 6'1 213
Romanov 6'0 208
Mayfield 6'4 209
Aho 5'10 186

He needs to be trending toward Mayfield and not toward Aho. He has the body and frame to be an all around stud with offensive skill. Shit Leddy was the same weight but 4 inches shorter, and he was also a guy that was criticized for having no defensive nastiness. Dobson is lanky and needs to fill out so he can be stronger and harder to play against. But he also needs to be tough to play against through his choices. Maybe that will come with a stronger frame and more weight, but right now it looks like a style thing. I have a sense that if Dobson could play a whole game and avoid being checked, he would prefer it.

There's a reason why he doesn't kill penalties. I was looking at this the other day. I'm doing some inference here, so interested in other's takes. Dobson and Aho rarely kill penalties. It's the other 4 that do it. Aho gets 31 seconds of PK time a game and Dobson 29 seconds. Dobson's PP goals against per 60 is 3.57 and Aho's is 1.75. Obviously with 30 seconds per game, that's not a ton of data, but still pretty interesting. I was also looking at the stat of shots created while short handed (shots on goal, shots blocked, shots missed, etc.). Here are the stats for the season next to their SH TOI per 60:

Mayfield: 2:52 SH TOI per 60 | 1 shot created
Pelech: 2:42 | 3
Romanov: 2:03 | 4
Pulock: 1:44 | 10
Aho: 0:31 | 4
Dobson: 0:29 | 42

I'm trying to interpret that (others are welcome -- I'm not that smart). He's on the PK basically 10 seconds per game (given his 20 minutes of ice time), and has twice as money shots created shorthanded then the rest of our defense combined. One theory: he's out there when the power play is expiring and the Isles are moving up the ice. So basically, he's extremely sheltered, still. In his 4th full season as our tallest defenseman. But I don't think the above is just size related. And it certainly isn't age related. If Dobson put on 10 pounds but played the same way (so essentially the same weight as Romanov and 4 inches taller), he likely still won't get PK time over Romanov because of how Romanov plays the game.
 
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CupHolders

Really Fries My Bananas!
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Agreed that these are two different things, but why are these not both valid criticisms of his game? I don't think "showing emotion and fire" means crying like Ryan Smyth. I think it means having a mean streak to your game where you thrash people in front of the net and initiate contact on the boards. He shies away from all that shit like he's allergic to contact.

Two distinct plays I remember from last night:

One was the 2nd goal against where he gave up the entire front of the net on a basically nothing play. He was looking at the puck at his feet instead of looking to put a body on someone and clear the net. Second play is something that happens all the time with him. Puck goes behind our net as the other team forechecks. Dobson does a play where he tries to kind of fake carrying the puck one way and then tries to go the other way while ducking under or spinning away from contact. Yesterday I recall it because they had just switched the camera to behind the net and you saw it clearly. The move didn't work, it was low percentage, he turned over the puck, and he was taken out of the play from a check. To me, that's where the "fire" and "mean streak" come in. Maybe there's semantics in what adjectives we are using, but the intent is clear: he has no interest in playing the body. He needs to absorb that contact and make a safe easy play, but he's trying to skill his way out of it.

He's 6'4 and 195.

For comaprison:
Pelech 6'2 210
Pulock 6'1 213
Romanov 6'0 208
Mayfield 6'4 209
Aho 5'10 186

He needs to be trending toward Mayfield and not toward Aho. He has the body and frame to be an all around stud with offensive skill. Shit Leddy was the same weight but 4 inches shorter, and he was also a guy that was criticized for having no defensive nastiness. Dobson is lanky and needs to fill out so he can be stronger and harder to play against. But he also needs to be tough to play against through his choices. Maybe that will come with a stronger frame and more weight, but right now it looks like a style thing. I have a sense that if Dobson could play a whole game and avoid being checked, he would prefer it.

There's a reason why he doesn't kill penalties. I was looking at this the other day. I'm doing some inference here, so interested in other's takes. Dobson and Aho rarely kill penalties. It's the other 4 that do it. Aho gets 31 seconds of PK time a game and Dobson 29 seconds. Dobson's PP goals against per 60 is 3.57 and Aho's is 1.75. Obviously with 30 seconds per game, that's not a ton of data, but still pretty interesting. I was also looking at the stat of shots created while short handed (shots on goal, shots blocked, shots missed, etc.). Here are the stats for the season next to their SH TOI per 60:

Mayfield: 2:52 SH TOI per 60 | 1 shot created
Pelech: 2:42 | 3
Romanov: 2:03 | 4
Pulock: 1:44 | 10
Aho: 0:31 | 4
Dobson: 0:29 | 42

I'm trying to interpret that (others are welcome -- I'm not that smart). He's on the PK basically 10 seconds per game (given his 20 minutes of ice time), and has twice as money shots created shorthanded then the rest of our defense combined. One theory: he's out there when the power play is expiring and the Isles are moving up the ice. So basically, he's extremely sheltered, still. In his 4th full season as our tallest defenseman. But I don't think the above is just size related. And it certainly isn't age related. If Dobson put on 10 pounds but played the same way (so essentially the same weight as Romanov and 4 inches taller), he likely still won't get PK time over Romanov because of how Romanov plays the game.
Dobson needs to play better defense, it includes him getting stronger and more engaged in congested areas. No one disputes that. And I overall agree with your take on how he needs to approach the game.

But in general, asking a person to be a different temperament just doesn’t work. Moreover, it’s counter productive to the overall team.

There are plenty of examples of players who are not angry or predisposed to trying to thrash players and yet are successful components to a successful team.

Realistically Kenny Jonsson (very under appreciated physical game) would be a better role model for the defensive player he can aspire to be, than say Brendan Witt or Rich Pilon.

To be very clear, I would love for all of the Isles to have Cizikas intensity with Kasparitis level physicality. But it’s unrealistic and generally unnecessary.

Get Dobson to that Jonsson level of defense as soon as possible and don’t waste time trying to remake him as something he won’t do well as. Find the heavy hitting and other stuff elsewhere in the lineup.
 
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13th Floor

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Dobson needs to play better defense, it includes him getting stronger and more engaged in congested areas. No one disputes that. And I overall agree with your take on how he needs to approach the game.

But in general, asking a person to be a different temperament just doesn’t work. Moreover, it’s counter productive to the overall team.

There are plenty of examples of players who are not angry or predisposed to trying to thrash players and yet are successful components to a successful team.

Realistically Kenny Jonsson (very under appreciated physical game) would be a better role model for the defensive player he can aspire to be, than say Brendan Witt or Rich Pilon.

To be very clear, I would love for all of the Isles to have Cizikas intensity with Kasparitis level physicality. But it’s unrealistic and generally unnecessary.

Get Dobson to that Jonsson level of defense as soon as possible and don’t waste time trying to remake him as something he won’t go well in. Find the heavy hitting elsewhere in the lineup.

Great point. And I like the Jonsson comparison. But I also think you hit the nail on the head... he was very underrated physically and how he used his body. So I think the "nastiness" is a fair pushback, but the willingness to clear the front of the net is a choice he needs to start making. It might not be "nastiness", but it's something separate from just size.
 
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Richie Daggers Crime

Boosted 9 times double masked they/them
Mar 8, 2004
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Agreed that these are two different things, but why are these not both valid criticisms of his game?
Because "fire" and "emotion" are generally things fans project onto players rather than being absolute positive attributes in their own right. Individual temperaments are widely variable. In my opinion, I think players can be successful without having "fire and emotion" type personalities.

So, I don't understand that criticism. You might disagree, and that's fine. But, in the end, I responded because it was conflating two distinctly different criticisms.
 

CupHolders

Really Fries My Bananas!
Aug 8, 2006
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Great point. And I like the Jonsson comparison. But I also think you hit the nail on the head... he was very underrated physically and how he used his body. So I think the "nastiness" is a fair pushback, but the willingness to clear the front of the net is a choice he needs to start making. It might not be "nastiness", but it's something separate from just size.
Agree 100%.

As for Jonsson, he used to get criticized for not murdering people in front of the net and corners. But my recollection was that he would often come out of those one-on-one battles with control of the puck. So he was clearly doing something right.

If he didn’t play in an era of liberal head shots he would’ve been a much more appreciated player. Lindblom in Boston, comes to mind.

Tying it back to Dobson, he has to find a way to do as much. Hopefully sooner then later, Otherwise I except that Lou may actually see him as an option to be moved.
 
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13th Floor

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Because "fire" and "emotion" are generally things fans project onto players rather than being absolute positive attributes in their own right. Individual temperaments are widely variable. In my opinion, I think players can be successful without having "fire and emotion" type personalities.

So, I don't understand that criticism. You might disagree, and that's fine. But, in the end, I responded because it was conflating two distinctly different criticisms.

Fair enough -- I see your point on the conflating.

There's something to describe his play that's the opposite of "soft".
 

Osakahaus

Chillin' on Fuji
May 28, 2021
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I'm genuinely just frustrated watching Dobson man the power play. Dude just stinks. I really don't want to gang up on him, but the past two seasons have displayed how meh his defense is. If the isles are smart, they ship him off at his highest value. If they're not, they keep forcing him on the top pair and power play unit.
 

Osakahaus

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May 28, 2021
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What has happened to him.....
What do you mean? He's always been super shaky on defense. This is pretty much confirmation that his defensive play is still poor. I get someone will blame Zdeno for last season, but this is the kind of play Dobson is. Andy Francess on twitter always shows how poor his defense is, and how deceiving his offensive stats can be.
 

WangMustGo

Registered User
Mar 31, 2008
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I'm genuinely just frustrated watching Dobson man the power play. Dude just stinks. I really don't want to gang up on him, but the past two seasons have displayed how meh his defense is. If the isles are smart, they ship him off at his highest value. If they're not, they keep forcing him on the top pair and power play unit.

Im sorry but trading a 23 year old defenseman with his size and skillset is absolutely ridiculous. You realize that Pelech abd Pulock were rookies when they were 23, Mayfield didnt earn a spot until he was 25-26. Defenseman take time to develop. Dobson needs to hit the weight room and continue working on his defensive game, but to trade him now would be incredibly foolish.
 

MarsTBOW

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Jun 30, 2014
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What do you mean? He's always been super shaky on defense. This is pretty much confirmation that his defensive play is still poor. I get someone will blame Zdeno for last season, but this is the kind of play Dobson is. Andy Francess on twitter always shows how poor his defense is, and how deceiving his offensive stats can be.

I would not ship him anywhere. I think it's Coaching. Someone has convinced him he can "Get By With Skill". He needs to learn to be physical and use his Big Frame better. He has no urgency and Skates at half speed much of the time. Kinda like Bailey skates. He needs to hear from a HOFer like Potvin or somebody like that on how much he is wasting while going half speed. It's Malakhov that he is starting to remind me of. Somebody who never used his entire toolbox and got Lazy....
 
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Osakahaus

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Im sorry but trading a 23 year old defenseman with his size and skillset is absolutely ridiculous. You realize that Pelech abd Pulock were rookies when they were 23, Mayfield didnt earn a spot until he was 25-26. Defenseman take time to develop. Dobson needs to hit the weight room and continue working on his defensive game, but to trade him now would be incredibly foolish.
If Noah Dobson becomes on the level of Pelech or Pulock, I will concede any complaints. But this is just baffling awareness from the kid. It's just not there. I understand defensemen take a longer time to develop, but this is almost year #4 in the NHL, and he's still making rookie mistakes like in the Columbus game.

So if Dobson gets the coaching, and he still makes the mistakes, then is it really just him being lazy? I just don't know if the islanders will do a coaching shakeup yet again because it feels unlikely.
 

WangMustGo

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Mar 31, 2008
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If Noah Dobson becomes on the level of Pelech or Pulock, I will concede any complaints. But this is just baffling awareness from the kid. It's just not there. I understand defensemen take a longer time to develop, but this is almost year #4 in the NHL, and he's still making rookie mistakes like in the Columbus game.

So if Dobson gets the coaching, and he still makes the mistakes, then is it really just him being lazy? I just don't know if the islanders will do a coaching shakeup yet again because it feels unlikely.

Pelech/Pulock/Mayfield were all terrible when they were 23.

What Dobson needs is a good defensive defenseman stapled to him. I have been saying Pelech should be with Dobson for a while. Let Dobson learn from him. His awareness is fine, the problem is he isnt strong enough and needs to play more physical. When he gains 15-20lbs of muscle that could easily change. Keep putting him with the likes of Aho/Buldoc and you will get the worst out of him.
 

MJF

Hope is not a strategy
Sep 6, 2003
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Pelech/Pulock/Mayfield were all terrible when they were 23.

What Dobson needs is a good defensive defenseman stapled to him. I have been saying Pelech should be with Dobson for a while. Let Dobson learn from him. His awareness is fine, the problem is he isnt strong enough and needs to play more physical. When he gains 15-20lbs of muscle that could easily change. Keep putting him with the likes of Aho/Buldoc and you will get the worst out of him.
Maybe Dobson can live with the Seidenbergs this summer. The experience will turn him into a man :blush:
 
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Osakahaus

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Pelech/Pulock/Mayfield were all terrible when they were 23.

What Dobson needs is a good defensive defenseman stapled to him. I have been saying Pelech should be with Dobson for a while. Let Dobson learn from him. His awareness is fine, the problem is he isnt strong enough and needs to play more physical.
When he gains 15-20lbs of muscle that could easily change. Keep putting him with the likes of Aho/Buldoc and you will get the worst out of him.
We tried this with Romanov: it was horrible
 

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