Peltz
Registered User
- Oct 4, 2019
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I think Jones earned the spot but Nils will be the more important player to the team's future. He's too good a prospect to stay in Hartford for long.
Nils Lundkvist vs Zac Jones
- Thread starter EdJovanovski
- Start date
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egelband
Registered User
- Sep 6, 2008
- 16,199
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I’d bet dollars to donuts that the spare defenseman is a vet. If a young guy - most likely it’ll be Jones - isn’t in the lineup regularly they’ll send him to be a top pairing guy in Hartford.
Beyond the practicality, staging a competition where one of the young guys is going to for-sure “lose” is probably a bit unhealthy.
- Sep 1, 2010
- 10,036
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i get all that, and next year, or certainly the few following, I wouldn't say that.
But, to me, this is not a Cup contender season anyway.
NYR are ramping up a new staff, and have lotsa guys in new roles, and lotsa new guys.
There will be growing pains and lessons learned.
If, approaching mid-season, they are the team we expect them to be, the season meets its realistic goals.
Peltz
Registered User
- Oct 4, 2019
- 3,925
- 5,628
Yea, thank goodness! If Quinn was around he might ruin these two guys just like he ruined Fox.
pld459666
Registered User
You should look to reward the guys that earn it.
He (Jones) has earned it thus far and until such time that he gets supplanted, he should be given the nod.
The way this kid has looked (in the NHL) and against NHL level competition at the World's, he may end up better than Nils.
Its just not a good message to outplay your competition and still get shafted.
Not a good look for the organization.
pld459666
Registered User
I didn't criticize Nils.
Hes a hell of a hockey player, but one of his contemporaries is playing better and based on the early results should make the team.
I agree that he's learning the game on a smaller surface, but the NHL is not a developmental league. Thats EXACTLY what the AHL is for.
If he turns the table in the nest few games and practices, that's a good thing.
But giving him a spot over a better player today regardless of what they project out to be is a.mistake, IMHO
Amazing Kreiderman
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2011
- 45,070
- 40,920
We wouldn't be having this debate, if Miller wasn't a lock and we would reward all players based on merit...
Based on merit, our defense would look like this:
55-23
6-8
12-64
pld459666
Registered User
I agree.
The only difference I can see here is that Key earned a longer leash after last season.
But I agree, it shouldn't be that much longer that he's a lock
BobMarleyNYR
Rangers future on D
everyone says this but I don't think anybody believes it. This is the most talented team we have had in almost 30 years. I think they are going to contend? Only 1/32 teams will win, but the Rangers are just as strong contender as any team this season. That line is getting old because of unless numbers one two are complete busts, they'll be serious contenders for probably the next 10 years. It's that time.
It almost certainly won't, but part of me is really hoping that happens. All though I think Jones makes or a much better partner for Trouba than does Miller. At least the way they look.
And I really do think he might be the best skater on the team. He surprises me every time with his movement. And it's like there is an invisible thread connecting him to the puck, so he always seamlessly has a direct line to the puck, in what seems a flash. I just think that's something I've seen with great defenders. But his skating really makes it something that I think is going to be very special. And however he ends up offensively, he looks like a well above average future defender, even if he is only 5'10-5'11. LD version of Fox looks plausible. Stylistically. Not sure about ceiling of course.
I think it's the exact opposite. It's not over criticism of Nils it's hype of Nils that makes it seem like criticism. When in reality, all some are saying is that Nils looks like he has a bright future, but might not be ready and can use some time in the A.
Where as Jones has looked more ready to some, more currently able to defend on an NHL level and contribute offensively on par with Lundkvist.
"The goal is to decide who will be best in the long run......." - I wholly disagree with this, because at this point in their careers and the difference in their play would make weighing any such judgement purely speculative. There is a very good chance Jones ends up better than Nils in many ways, or someone like Schneider or Robertson can just perform at a higher level. It's a guessing game based on observable traits, which has its place in scouting and such, but this kind of thing has such a low predictability that it's not necessarily a huge factor in determining what happens now. That would be what you wrote next, which I do wholly agree with.
"and figure out how best to develop all the players." -- this is wholly true, the latter part. That's what is important right now. Not trying to guess who is going to be best. And you want to put them in the right position to succeed, which is really all you can do, the rest is largely up to them. I'm not suggesting that Lundkvist won't or can't be better than Jones one day, but I don't think their ceiling is really disparate enough to warrant gambling on a winner. I think people are way understating Jone's potential at times with this assumption that Nils will be better in the long run. And I just don't think that's true. For me it literally could go either way, 50/50 whomever turns out best in the long run. And I just point to Fox. I think most people liked Fox a lot. Many loved him, some even suggesting he has a huge ceiling, but many not expecting him to reach those heights for various reasons or just a disbelief in that ceiling. But I don't know anyone, literally, anyone, that saw coming what Fox is now. That thought it plausible he'd win a Norris so quickly and dominate the league. I imagine some even thought Nils was going to eventually replace or surpass Fox.
And Jones seriously has some Fox vibes. Not that I do think he will attain that Fox level, but it's not impossible. Or at least coming close, basically achieving what people are expecting out of Nils.
But really, I think what most are suggesting is the best way to help Nils develop right now, would be giving him time in the A. And Jones' path to development might be better served with some NHL ice time. All though I am more on the side of having them both seeing some time in the A ideally. But part of the problem is Miller honestly looks like he needs time in the A too. So legitimately, Jones might be a plausible solution to Miller getting some A time. Not that it's likely.
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perhaps
but while there was some inconsistency particularly end of last yr catching up w/him a bit, including critically when Trouba was out, he was of a certain level acceptably high for a rookie with minimal prep in the minors.
If all of that over most of the season was not an abberration, and he is not injured, then it is fair to ask if it is effort, OR, is he re-acclamating to a largely new team, coach, system, etc.
That's prob part of it
rest of it could be doggin it, but prob not to get hurt preseason
Rempe73
RIP King of Pop
I don’t care who makes it. But competition is good. More of that please. Miller needs to earn his spot too. Guy is just off. Maybe try him with Fox or Nils.
- Jul 16, 2005
- 14,857
- 13,012
I feel like some want him not to make the team because they’ve hitched their wagon to the idea that we need the toughness that Schneider brings more and they are justifying packaging Nils away in a trade.
Miamipuck
Al Swearengen
Why is there a thread pitting a RD vs. LD?
Also sometimes it's a cool thing to have a guy outplaying what we thought he was (Jones) and a guy that was among the best players not in the NHL who is consistently showing improvement game to game. Specifically, when that player is coming into a totally new culture, smaller rinks etc.
I am optimistic that both should have a spot on the team.
Also sometimes it's a cool thing to have a guy outplaying what we thought he was (Jones) and a guy that was among the best players not in the NHL who is consistently showing improvement game to game. Specifically, when that player is coming into a totally new culture, smaller rinks etc.
I am optimistic that both should have a spot on the team.
- Jul 16, 2005
- 14,857
- 13,012
Too 25 prospect in the sport, they say.
I don’t know how you can read this and give any concept to trading him.
Which is an odd take since most of us have been advocating for Jones over Nils.
Slurpeelover27
Unleash the MaKaraken!!!
Check out any professional journalist or fantasy websites or articles that rank prospects. I have seen probably almost all that exist and have yet to see any that say Jones is anywhere close to Nils.
The poll results have also become quite decisive in Nils favour.
The poll results have also become quite decisive in Nils favour.
my 2 cents is over the longer time horizon - prospect games / all preseason games played...which might not even be enough to qualify as a horizon...jones has put together the stronger case.
he's been more comfortable in his own end with/without the puck, done more with the puck on his stick individually, and just played an overall more confident game.
that said, nils has been closing a lot of that fast and shown a ton of progress in a very short amount of time. still not totally sold he's ready mentally and physically to handle the intensity and pace that regular season games will be played at by 10/13. not to say he isn't or won't be, and i have no doubt he's not far away if he isn't at that point. but as of today i'd still have some concerns if we were playing washington tomorrow about him retrieving a puck with someone like wilson bearing down on him...if he could get there and avoid getting killed while also moving the puck to an outlet or recognizing he has to eat it and again, staying alive, how he'd do against the rush with bigger stronger players like ovi/wilson/mantha driving wide and dropping the shoulder or a quicker player like sprong trying to turn the corner on him etc. i have no doubt he'd be an asset coming up ice and manning the point outside of maybe some early jitters.
not to say i think jones has worlds of separation in some of the specific defensive scenarios i mentioned, but at this moment i have more confidence he could handle those situations a bit more capably. still some games to be played, and if you want to argue based on how nils has shown progress everywhere on the ice to the point you think he's tracking to overtake jones decidedly i wouldn't take any issue. and regardless of what i think i do feel like the writing is on the wall the the org at worst already has lundqvist penciled into the number 6 spot, and barring him playing himself out of it and / or jones making an unquestionable case for the spot - which at this point seems like a remote possibility, it'll be him we see opening night. either way though don't see it being much of a big deal, whoever wins the spot in game 1 will have to prove capable there, and whoever ends up in hartford will have be provided a platform to make their case for an nhl roster spot...they'll find their level. not to mention given we've been crushed by a cruel volume of injuries/covid/random disappearances recently hard to imagine opportunities won't arise during the season. game 1 has some meaning in terms of how the org sees the 2 right now and its fun to kick around thoughts, but its largely irrelevant in terms of how things play out for these two over this season and beyond
he's been more comfortable in his own end with/without the puck, done more with the puck on his stick individually, and just played an overall more confident game.
that said, nils has been closing a lot of that fast and shown a ton of progress in a very short amount of time. still not totally sold he's ready mentally and physically to handle the intensity and pace that regular season games will be played at by 10/13. not to say he isn't or won't be, and i have no doubt he's not far away if he isn't at that point. but as of today i'd still have some concerns if we were playing washington tomorrow about him retrieving a puck with someone like wilson bearing down on him...if he could get there and avoid getting killed while also moving the puck to an outlet or recognizing he has to eat it and again, staying alive, how he'd do against the rush with bigger stronger players like ovi/wilson/mantha driving wide and dropping the shoulder or a quicker player like sprong trying to turn the corner on him etc. i have no doubt he'd be an asset coming up ice and manning the point outside of maybe some early jitters.
not to say i think jones has worlds of separation in some of the specific defensive scenarios i mentioned, but at this moment i have more confidence he could handle those situations a bit more capably. still some games to be played, and if you want to argue based on how nils has shown progress everywhere on the ice to the point you think he's tracking to overtake jones decidedly i wouldn't take any issue. and regardless of what i think i do feel like the writing is on the wall the the org at worst already has lundqvist penciled into the number 6 spot, and barring him playing himself out of it and / or jones making an unquestionable case for the spot - which at this point seems like a remote possibility, it'll be him we see opening night. either way though don't see it being much of a big deal, whoever wins the spot in game 1 will have to prove capable there, and whoever ends up in hartford will have be provided a platform to make their case for an nhl roster spot...they'll find their level. not to mention given we've been crushed by a cruel volume of injuries/covid/random disappearances recently hard to imagine opportunities won't arise during the season. game 1 has some meaning in terms of how the org sees the 2 right now and its fun to kick around thoughts, but its largely irrelevant in terms of how things play out for these two over this season and beyond
poll is currently approx roughly 60-40 in favor of Nils, not Jones
EdJovanovski
#FreeRempe
Nemeth plays both the left & right side, today Gallant even made note of that fact in an interview when discussing who could fill the final spot
EdJovanovski
#FreeRempe
He’s saying it’s not about toughness because people are advocating Jones over Nils, not Schneider over Nils
