Toggle sidebar

Nils Lundkvist vs Zac Jones

  • Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates

Who should make the team?

  • Nils Lundkvist

  • Zac Jones

Results are only viewable after voting.
bernmeister said:
what people are forgetting is balance.
We have Fox who is top playmaker
Jones and Nils are both high end QB guys.
The dif is Nils can really shoot the puck, which we need.

Jones has not night and day outplayed Nils which is what the Jones camp is pressing.
Has been ballpark even to date.

Again, if we admit to reality of balance including size
our D of the future projects as

Lindgren-Fox
Miller-Trouba
Robertson-Nils

asap, Schneider replaces Trouba
Hunter Skinner is our 7th.

If we have anough bigger guys, we can replace Lindgren w/Jones
but that means either trading Lindgren
or
making space for him as 4th line checking lw
and likely dealing someone else

Again people,
setting aside Zib,
setting aside need to create cap regardless of zib to extend Fox and be ready for next year,

we can't afford Strome long term
moving him now = relieving some pressure

but let's get on the same pg w/me
generally,
we trade vets, not blue chips
Click to expand...

Miller really needs to step up to keep his spot IMO. He has been disappointing since mid-March and repuration/seniority only gets you so far if you only played 56 games.

Robertson I really wasn't impressed with either. He was a clear candidate to be sent down this early and he was. I think the LHD battle between Jones and Miller, and the RHD battle between Lundkvist and Schneider will be great to watch. None of them are guaranteed to keep their spot unless they earn it.

It's refreshing to have this much depth on defense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Narcissus and bernmeister
pld459666 said:
I think it sends the wrong message to kids on this team that even if you were the better player, you are still not getting the nod.

I'd demand a trade if that happened.

I do not care, nor should I be expected to care about any side agreements team have with other players. If the public stance is the best players make the team, and that is proven NOT to be the case, then I have my agents demand a trade.

I expected Nils to come in an earn the nod. The fact that Jones outplayed him and may still get bent is (would be) a real dick move by the NYR's
Click to expand...
I really don't get the overt criticism of Nils and the unabashed love for Jones. Jones has looked good for sure and had 10 games last year where he was decent, and Nils has started slowly no doubt, but so what? The goal is to decide who will be best in the long run and figure out how best to develop all the players. You should not just judge players on how they have looked over the past 10 days and say this player is better than the other. History and circumstances matter a lot. Nils obviously is coming over from Europe after playing on smaller ice all his life and adjusting to almost everything being new. Tell me anyone who would perform at their best right away? Nils has clearly better upside IMHO. He dominated in the SHL which is one of the best leagues outside of the NHL. Jones did very well in college. If you watch tape of what Nils can do it is easy to see how much talent he has. If you want to win in the best league in the world then you should choose your players with the most potential even if it takes a little longer to get them there. There is no doubt in my mind Nils will be better, but that's just my opinion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jjksport, mas0764 and TheDirtyH
John Snow said:
I really don't get the overt criticism of Nils and the unabashed love for Jones. Jones has looked good for sure and had 10 games last year where he was decent, and Nils has started slowly no doubt, but so what? The goal is to decide who will be best in the long run and figure out how best to develop all the players.
Click to expand...
I agree with the second part of that--choosing how to best-develop your players. The first part is wrong, IMO. You don't put a guy on the team just because you think he'll be better long term, over a guy who also has excellent potential and has maybe played better.

(I'm not saying this applies to Lundkvist vs. Jones, just in general.)

John Snow said:
You should not just judge players on how they have looked over the past 10 days and say this player is better than the other. History and circumstances matter a lot. Nils obviously is coming over from Europe after playing on smaller ice all his life and adjusting to almost everything being new. Tell me anyone who would perform at their best right away? Nils has clearly better upside IMHO. He dominated in the SHL which is one of the best leagues outside of the NHL. Jones did very well in college. If you watch tape of what Nils can do it is easy to see how much talent he has. If you want to win in the best league in the world then you should choose your players with the most potential even if it takes a little longer to get them there. There is no doubt in my mind Nils will be better, but that's just my opinion.
Click to expand...
This is kind of like the previous point. You want to do what's right for your players developmentally. Starting in the NHL and learning on the fly isn't always what's best for people. Look at someone like Brett Howden--he obviously wasn't as talented as either Lundkvist or Jones but it's clear as day that he should have started in the AHL. I know we had a poster earlier that said "no good Swedish prospect ever started in the AHL" or whatever, but even if it's just for a dozen games or so like Carl Hagelin, sometimes that period of acclimation can be really helpful.

I'm not actually advocating for sending Lundkvist to the AHL (I don't really know what they should do with these two guys) but I think the concept of picking Lundkvist over Jones because of perceived upside is one that's based on flawed logic. Sometimes it benefits the team and the player to spend some time in the AHL before making the jump up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheDirtyH, Quinn Coin and HockeyBasedNYC
I emphasized "of the future" = long term

agree
KAM's mailed it in at best so far.

Presuming he is doing the vet move and saving it for opening day
but
even still
yes,
I agree,
his game needs more polish/refinment

Long term, howev, reach/size can't be taught

With the glut we have, would be nice if we could do KAM + acceptable + for Sens Sanderson, even tho he is not available this yr
 
pld459666 said:
I think it sends the wrong message to kids on this team that even if you were the better player, you are still not getting the nod.. I'd demand a trade if that happened....
Click to expand...

c'mon man this is just training camp,
no way that means more than that Jones has 10 games vs men, while Nils has 2 dominant seasons in the 3rd best pro league

(besides, Jones has NOT way outplayed Nils - have you seen


Every NHL hopeful knows that for 99% of them the path to NHL passes through AHL
The team has shown Jones how much they believe in him multiple times from draft year til now

Jones is not going to act out because he gets assigned to AHL,
he knows, everyone knows, it will only make him more ready for his next NHL opportunity
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheDirtyH, John Snow and bernmeister
John Snow said:
I really don't get the overt criticism of Nils and the unabashed love for Jones. Jones has looked good for sure and had 10 games last year where he was decent, and Nils has started slowly no doubt, but so what? The goal is to decide who will be best in the long run and figure out how best to develop all the players. You should not just judge players on how they have looked over the past 10 days and say this player is better than the other. History and circumstances matter a lot. Nils obviously is coming over from Europe after playing on smaller ice all his life and adjusting to almost everything being new. Tell me anyone who would perform at their best right away? Nils has clearly better upside IMHO. He dominated in the SHL which is one of the best leagues outside of the NHL. Jones did very well in college. If you watch tape of what Nils can do it is easy to see how much talent he has. If you want to win in the best league in the world then you should choose your players with the most potential even if it takes a little longer to get them there. There is no doubt in my mind Nils will be better, but that's just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Everything you said is reason why Nils is probably best suited to start in the AHL.

Let him get used to the ice and develop while playing number 1 pairing minutes
 
cwede said:
c'mon man this is just training camp,
no way that means more than that Jones has 10 games vs men, while Nils has 2 dominant seasons in the 3rd best pro league

(besides, Jones has NOT way outplayed Nils - have you seen


Every NHL hopeful knows that for 99% of them the path to NHL passes through AHL
The team has shown Jones how much they believe in him multiple times from draft year til now

Jones is not going to act out because he gets assigned to AHL,
he knows, everyone knows, it will only make him more ready for his next NHL opportunity
Click to expand...


as usual, the voice of reason
 
Seniority always takes precedent over youth in camp. If you came into the season thinking last year's top-4 wouldn't be this year's top-4 then I really don't know what to tell you. Extremely unlikely that Miller's job was ever in question.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nyr2k2
nyr2k2 said:
I'm not actually advocating for sending Lundkvist to the AHL (I don't really know what they should do with these two guys) but I think the concept of picking Lundkvist over Jones because of perceived upside is one that's based on flawed logic. Sometimes it benefits the team and the player to spend some time in the AHL before making the jump up.
Click to expand...

I agree that some players definitely benefit from playing in the minors and you might be right that it would benefit Nils as well. When you say "perceived upside" that should incorporate looking at everything, not just performance over the past 10 days or so. The way I would judge "perceived upside" anyway would be to look at everything and as many have noted Nils has been getting better every game, so why can he not continue to get better? From what many have used to make up their minds about why Jones should stay over Nils has been ONLY that in their opinion Jones has looked better the past 10 days. I won't disagree with that, but looking at the last game each played I would say Nils showed some very solid all around play and some huge skills especially with his offensive capabilities and acumen. He can be elite. Jones should be very good eventually, but I don't think he has the upside from what I have seen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mas0764
Amazing Kreiderman said:
To be fair, this isn't unheard of. It's often discussed during contract negotiations and we saw the same with Zac Jones last season. His agent and Jones negotiated for the contract to kick in immediately, and in exchange the performance bonuses were scrapped. Of course it won't be publicly announced but Lundkvist's negotiations could very well have been steered towards getting a shot on opening night. That doesn't mean he's guaranteed a spot throughout the season of course but it's something that comes up. Jimmy Vesey had a similar discussion during his ELC negotiations.

Lundkvist, one of the top defensive prospects outside the NHL at the time, definitely had some leverage being a year away from going the UFA route.
Click to expand...

That would be plausible. I guess I just have a heavy preference for meritocracy over early agreements. As long as its not a guarantee I suppose. But that sounds like it would be a bit discouraging towards other players who are trying to compete too. Might be a reality of the circumstance, but damn, if I played my butt off and then lost out because a guy steered his contract in that direction, giving another guy the job, even if just temporarily, that would bug me to no end. I'm not sure who I would be more pissed at, the organization for leading me on thinking if I worked hard, I could win the spot or my agent for not doing the same lol.
 
I think if there's a tie it goes to Lundkvist, but not because of upside.

I think it's because

a) he's a year older, which entails a season closer to waiver eligibility
b) He's from Europe, and dissatisfaction with his role in the organization could have a small chance of flight
c) He's a right handed defenseman, and while Gallant may be comfortable playing Nemeth on the right- I'm sure the preference is for him to stay on the natural side if possible.

Unless Jones has some sort of barn burner final game, I think it'll be a 'thank you and see you soon' to Zac.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheDirtyH, nyr2k2 and Trxjw
bernmeister said:
what people are forgetting is balance.
We have Fox who is top playmaker
Jones and Nils are both high end QB guys.
The dif is Nils can really shoot the puck, which we need.

Jones has not night and day outplayed Nils which is what the Jones camp is pressing.
Has been ballpark even to date.

Again, if we admit to reality of balance including size
our D of the future projects as

Lindgren-Fox
Miller-Trouba
Robertson-Nils

asap, Schneider replaces Trouba
Hunter Skinner is our 7th.

If we have anough bigger guys, we can replace Lindgren w/Jones
but that means either trading Lindgren
or
making space for him as 4th line checking lw
and likely dealing someone else

Again people,
setting aside Zib,
setting aside need to create cap regardless of zib to extend Fox and be ready for next year,

we can't afford Strome long term
moving him now = relieving some pressure

but let's get on the same pg w/me
generally,
we trade vets, not blue chips
Click to expand...

Staal - Sanguinetti
Tyutin - Girardi
Del Zotto - Sauer
Baranka
 
  • Like
Reactions: Overcast and TheDirtyH
cwede said:
c'mon man this is just training camp,
no way that means more than that Jones has 10 games vs men, while Nils has 2 dominant seasons in the 3rd best pro league

(besides, Jones has NOT way outplayed Nils - have you seen


Every NHL hopeful knows that for 99% of them the path to NHL passes through AHL
The team has shown Jones how much they believe in him multiple times from draft year til now

Jones is not going to act out because he gets assigned to AHL,
he knows, everyone knows, it will only make him more ready for his next NHL opportunity
Click to expand...


Nils has a 3/6 HDCF/HDCA ratio.

Jones is at 6/2 (2 gp)

Schneider was at 8/6.

Just because he wasn't on the ice for those goals against doesn't mean that he's out performed the other guys.

If I had access to controlled exit numbers, it would be even more heavily slanted in favor of Jones.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Beer League Sniper, Hunter Gathers, Trxjw and 2 others
Uninstaaled said:
Nils has a 3/6 HDCF/HDCA ratio.

Jones is at 6/2 (2 gp)

Schneider was at 8/6.

Just because he wasn't on the ice for those goals against doesn't mean that he's out performed the other guys.

If I had access to controlled exit numbers, it would be even more heavily slanted in favor of Jones.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I have no dog in this fight, but it kind of blows my mind that we're looking at stats--and the most basic of stats!--from two preseason games to justify one guy over the other. The advanced stats are a bit more reasonable to look at but it's all crazy to me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: John Snow and TheDirtyH
Amazing Kreiderman said:
EP released this video on Nils Lundkvist. Interesting to watch as they go over his strengths and weaknesses with actual footage to show what to look for.

I really like these videos and hope EP keeps doing these.

Click to expand...


Funny that in that video they mention K'Andre Miller as a "nuclear level play killer" at 4:20. I'm sure that will make some Rangers fans very happy.

Anyway, awesome video, thanks for posting. Some great clips of Nils and yes, that shot is one of the things that separate him from Jones.

His awareness and gap control, which they cover in the video is what stood out to me in the last game. He has a Fox level intelligence to his game. He will learn a lot from Fox as far as escaping forecheckers and improving his breakouts
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: SnowblindNYR
cwede said:
October and November are not about results, they are about the staff preparing to build their approach for the 2nd half, and a run at a postseason spot.
Click to expand...

I hate this mentality. The games are worth just as much in October and November as they are in March.

Also, in a normal length season, teams in playoff spots by thanksgiving make the playoffs 77% of the time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SnowblindNYR
bernmeister said:
I emphasized "of the future" = long term

agree
KAM's mailed it in at best so far.

Presuming he is doing the vet move and saving it for opening day
but
even still
yes,
I agree,
his game needs more polish/refinment

Long term, howev, reach/size can't be taught

With the glut we have, would be nice if we could do KAM + acceptable + for Sens Sanderson, even tho he is not available this yr
Click to expand...

Miller is not mailing it in. He is what we are seeing.
 
chosen said:
The developments were that only Fox has looked better than Jones, but it never really mattered. So much for earning a spot in the pre-season.
Click to expand...
The Rangers plan is based on everything they knew - and probably promised - up through Sept 2021. They’re not changing that based on Zac Jones playing nicely in two mis-matched pre-season blowouts.
Jones was good, yes. But realistically it would have taken an injury or Nils falling on his face for this to change. Jones will get his shot.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Top Bottom