Nils Lundkvist vs Zac Jones

[Amazing Kreiderman]

His contract doesn't have an SHL out clause.

Correct. Also, his contract with Luleå expired so they could technically loan him out to whoever they want, in whatever league they want. I doubt they would send him to the KHL or something, as he doesn't want to go there.

Lundkvist has said that he has no intention to return to Sweden and will stay in NA.

 

[brakeyawself]

Yea OTT is really stocking the cupboard. Not only did they hit a grand slam getting Sanderson/Stutzle in that draft, but Zub has turned into a physical steady top 4 D in the mold of Cernak. They weren’t expecting that, at least not as fast. They also have Chabot signed to a fair deal and Pinto looking like a legit 2/3 C option. Dorian has done well drafting for sure.
The only real problem there is getting Tkachuk to extend long term and buy in. But both Pinto and Norris look good. They aren’t far away from competing if they can get all their guys signed and actually pay to keep their talent in house.
They are facing a similar problem to us on their blue line, they have too many guys coming on in the same time frame. It’s to the point there, where Brannstrom, who hasn’t looked bad is likely going to be trade bait.

Don't forget Gustavsson in goal either. He was the 2nd best goalie in the entire NHL towards the end of last season, only surpassed by the play of Swayman. Murray has floundered in Ottawa and while there is a chance he can still turn things around, I fully expect Gustavsson to eventually steal his job. I do hope they give him a real chance this season. I think Murray is untradeable at current, so they probably need to run his contract out. But Gustavsson is one of the best unheralded young goalies in the game. I think a lot of people forget about him or gave up on him because he was drafted kind of far back. But he was so young and is still just 23 yo now. So he's entering that breakout age range for goalies.

But yea, they do have a terrific young core of D prospects. Brannstrom, I am not sure what to expect. I think the biggest difference between their young D and the Rangers is where they are in their progression. Rangers young D, for the most part, seem well ahead of the Sens youth D in development. Outside of Sanderson and Brannstrom, and Zub I guess, I am really not sure if the rest are close to deserving playing time. And I don't think any will surpass Chabot in terms of offense and PP with only Sanderson probably surpassing him defensively. The fact that they added Mete is a sign to me though that most of their young D are still not where they want them to be. Even Brannstrom, who has shown a lot of improvement, is not looking like the player many thought he could be. Especially when you consider he was the key piece in trading away one of the leagues best goal scorers and 2 way forwards in Stone. That deal not looking so hot for the Sens. All though I think they've used their draft picks well.

Boucher is interesting. I actually think the Rangers were going to take Boucher ahead of Othmann until Sens beat them to the punch. A lot of people sleeping on Boucher's potential as a future power forward. And yea, I think Norris and Pinto are going to be an excellent 1-2 punch down the middle. But I think they blew a shot to get an even better young center than Pinto when they made that deal with the Kings. Sens ended up with Ostapchuk who might turn out good, but they had a chance to draft Pinelli who was a huge steal at that point in the 2nd. I was really hoping Drury would have traded into the 2nd honestly to take either Pinelli or Raty. Which unfortunately for us, didn't happen. Both are 1st round talents in that draft class IMO.

 

[jay from jersey]

It's wild how Jones has surpassed Robertson this quickly.

Not in my book. Jones has been fantastic and has earned the praise. Robertson is still too green. You watch after a year of heavy AHL 1st pair minutes and another offseason training/camp people will have their hard ons for him again.
He’s a very big boy whose intelligent and moves the puck well. He was very positionally sound in the WHL as well. I’m hoping once he adds a little more muscle he’ll be more comfortable throwing around his body a bit more. He’s never going to be a huge hitter, but a big shut down D who can move the puck in transition is a hell of an add. Our Blue Line is deeeeeeep.
It’s too bad he’s was dealing with the injury for most of this camp, but making the team this season was a real long shot for him anyway.
Hopefully he turns into pre-injury Staal or Nick Hjmarsson style wise if he hits his ceiling

 

[brakeyawself]

Not in my book. Jones has been fantastic and has earned the praise. Robertson is still too green. You watch after a year of heavy AHL 1st pair minutes and another offseason training/camp people will have their hard ons for him again.
He’s a very big boy whose intelligent and moves the puck well. He was very positionally sound in the WHL as well. I’m hoping once he adds a little more muscle he’ll be more comfortable throwing around his body a bit more. He’s never going to be a huge hitter, but a big shut down D who can move the puck in transition is a hell of an add. Our Blue Line is deeeeeeep.
It’s too bad he’s was dealing with the injury for most of this camp, but making the team this season was a real long shot for him anyway.

You mean you don't think Jones has surpassed Robertson? Even though Robertson is still "too green"? I think it's fairly clear that Jones is currently better than Robertson, but also has a higher potential as a 2 way Dman than Robertson. Robertson seems like a perfect candidate for a future 3rd pair guy. Someone who is defensively terrific and dependable but won't wow you with anything in particular. He's got a higher defensive potential than Miller IMO, but is still likely a 3rd pairing guy for this Ranger team considering the other players we have. And Jones is no slouch defensively.

Size can be important, it certainly has its place. But in the big scheme of things, size is probably at the tail end of the trait/attribute value chart. Which people have a tendency to overvalue. Like with Miller. Sure Miller has the size, but what good is it if he doesn't utilize that size to its max? I would rather have someone like Lindgren, who at 6' is a far better defender and a far more physical player even though he doesn't quite have that size.

Anyway, in the long run, it really appears to me that Schneider, probably along with Lindgren, are going to be our two main shut down guys. Schneider has all the makings of a top defensive dman and he has some offensive game also, which is why I actually think he's the only real untouchable young Dmen after Fox and Lindgren. Yup, ahead of Lundkvist, Jones, Miller and Robertson, long term. Because he has that size, which he utilizes, has shut down potential and some offensive ability. Think he is destined to be the eventual 2RD behind Fox for the long term. While Robertson has a bottom pair or middle pair ceiling at best. Jones on the other hand, does have top pairing and PP ceiling, quite similar to Lundkvist but as a LD.

 

[brakeyawself]

Jones is smart and can guess what his opponent is thinking in RSP. It's not even fair.

Yup. Combine that ability with his skating, as he might be the best skater on the entire team, and i think we have a winner. It really seems like he's permanently connected to the puck by an invisible string. No matter where he is on the ice and where the puck is on the ice, he has a direct line to the puck. Which is an amazing ability and something only the top defenders usually have. It's exciting to think of what his future could be, possibly within a very short window.

 

[jay from jersey]

You mean you don't think Jones has surpassed Robertson? Even though Robertson is still "too green"? I think it's fairly clear that Jones is currently better than Robertson, but also has a higher potential as a 2 way Dman than Robertson. Robertson seems like a perfect candidate for a future 3rd pair guy. Someone who is defensively terrific and dependable but won't wow you with anything in particular. He's got a higher defensive potential than Miller IMO, but is still likely a 3rd pairing guy for this Ranger team considering the other players we have. And Jones is no slouch defensively.

Size can be important, it certainly has its place. But in the big scheme of things, size is probably at the tail end of the trait/attribute value chart. Which people have a tendency to overvalue. Like with Miller. Sure Miller has the size, but what good is it if he doesn't utilize that size to its max? I would rather have someone like Lindgren, who at 6' is a far better defender and a far more physical player even though he doesn't quite have that size.

Anyway, in the long run, it really appears to me that Schneider, probably along with Lindgren, are going to be our two main shut down guys. Schneider has all the makings of a top defensive dman and he has some offensive game also, which is why I actually think he's the only real untouchable young Dmen after Fox and Lindgren. Yup, ahead of Lundkvist, Jones, Miller and Robertson, long term. Because he has that size, which he utilizes, has shut down potential and some offensive ability. Think he is destined to be the eventual 2RD behind Fox for the long term. While Robertson has a bottom pair or middle pair ceiling at best. Jones on the other hand, does have top pairing and PP ceiling, quite similar to Lundkvist but as a LD.

I think at this point in time Jones is further along in his development then Robertson. I also think his injury set him back a bit, but nothing crazy. Bigger D always take longer to develop as well. He’s massive at 6”4 already, but he’s needs time to grow into his frame and add weight. It’s like big paws on the puppy, but you can tell the puppy isn’t a Dog yet. Still needs his man strength.
I disagree that Robertson is more suited for 3rd pair. No doubt he’ll break in there, but he has top 4 potential imo.
Jones may put up more points overall, put I think Robertson will be the better all around D. Bigger D that can still skate and are positionally sound are just harder to play against then little guys. There are exceptions like Fox, but he’s not the norm.
That’s why teams/GMS draft and pay a premium to get them. I doubt Robertson will ever run the PP, but he moves the puck very well, is smart, and has a excellent first pass/vision. The key with him is to keep working on his skating and strength and not lose any agility. He doesn’t have to lay hits like Schneider to be a top 4 guy. But he does need to use his body a bit more.
He’s still very young so there’s definitely time.
Robertson and miller would be top 5 prospects on many NHL teams.
I’d expect miller to use his size more this year now that he’s more comfortable. Not laying people out but walling guys off along the boards and cutting down angles more.
Size definitely isn’t the end all be all, but it’s not all the way down the chart either. That’s why guys like McIlrath etc go in the first Rd. It’s about finding big men that can skate and play because they are more in demand

 

[brakeyawself]

I see this for the next 2 years and I can’t wait to watch it unfold

Lindgren Fox
Miller Trouba
Nemeth Lundkvist
Jones Schneider

HM
Robertson
Reunanen

I think MAYBE that's possible for one year. But within 2-3 years, I fully expect at least two of Robertson, Lundkvist, Jones and Miller to be gone. I think it could be any 2 of those 4, completely dependent on what kind of return we would get. But I doubt that all 4 stick around beyond next season. Ultimately, I am pretty sure Jones takes Miller's spot next to Trouba, sometime this season or next. And eventually Schneider takes over for Trouba, when Trouba's NMC is out.

So in 2 years it could legitimately be...

Lindgren Fox
Jones Trouba
Robertson Lundkvist

with Schneider waiting in the wings as our 7th D or possibly swapping sides to pair with Lundkvist, over Robertson, at least until Trouba is gone. If Nemeth is still a starter for this team in 2 years, there is a problem. Something will have had to go horribly wrong with our young D prospects.

But I think the most likely candidate to leave first is Miller, followed by one of Robertson, Jones, Lundkvist, Schneider. In that order of probability to leave from 1st to last.

 

[brakeyawself]

I think at this point in time Jones is further along in his development then Robertson. I also think his injury set him back a bit, but nothing crazy. Bigger D always take longer to develop as well. He’s massive at 6”4 already, but he’s needs time to grow into his frame and add weight. It’s like big paws on the puppy, but you can tell the puppy isn’t a Dog yet. Still needs his man strength.
I disagree that Robertson is more suited for 3rd pair. No doubt he’ll break in there, but he has top 4 potential imo.
Jones may put up more points overall, put I think Robertson will be the better all around D. Bigger D that can still skate and are positionally sound are just harder to play against then little guys. There are exceptions like Fox, but he’s not the norm.
That’s why teams/GMS draft and pay a premium to get them

Sure, if you are basing it on choice based on appearances, without each player's particular skillset on an individual basis. But Jones seems like a potential high end defender, similar to Fox, with a ballpark offensive potential as well. He's not just a "small defender". He's a well above average defender. And I really think that makes all the difference in the world. Basically, with Fox, Jones and Lundkvist, it seriously looks like we have 3 outliers. 3, I wouldn't even say small, they are average height for males, high potential defenders with high potential offense. And ultimately, skill is going to beat out pure size.

Not to mention, we would only really need Robertson at the 3rd pair. Even if he does eventually prove capable of more, I just don't think the space will be there on the Rangers for him to get more. Schneider has a better chance at least of being the main shutdown, size guy. At least on the right side. And obviously Fox is a fantastic defender even at 5'11.

Will have to see I guess. I just don't think size is going to be the ultimate determinant in deciding our future defensive depth chart. It's almost certainly going to be skill and ability, then size. So it really depends on how they work out. Which is why I expect Miller to eventually be traded. All the size in the world right now, can't make him look better than Jones or Lundkvist.

 

[jay from jersey]

Sure, if you are basing it on choice based on appearances, without each player's particular skillset on an individual basis. But Jones seems like a potential high end defender, similar to Fox, with a ballpark offensive potential as well. He's not just a "small defender". He's a well above average defender. And I really think that makes all the difference in the world. Basically, with Fox, Jones and Lundkvist, it seriously looks like we have 3 outliers. 3, I wouldn't even say small, they are average height for males, high potential defenders with high potential offense. And ultimately, skill is going to beat out pure size.

Not to mention, we would only really need Robertson at the 3rd pair. Even if he does eventually prove capable of more, I just don't think the space will be there on the Rangers for him to get more. Schneider has a better chance at least of being the main shutdown, size guy. At least on the right side. And obviously Fox is a fantastic defender even at 5'11.

Will have to see I guess. I just don't think size is going to be the ultimate determinant in deciding our future defensive depth chart. It's almost certainly going to be skill and ability, then size. So it really depends on how they work out. Which is why I expect Miller to eventually be traded. All the size in the world right now, can't make him look better than Jones or Lundkvist.

yea they aren’t just going to play him because his bigger. Check out some Robertson clips of him in the W last year. It’s not like he’s a purely Defensive D. obviously if you have a bigger guy and a smaller guy in the same talent range when all’s said and done, you go with the bigger guy because 9 outta 10 times they are harder to play against, their bodies can take more abuse etc.
Finding a Robertson and what he can provide if he hits his ceiling is harder then finding a Jones and what he brings. Both are great prospects, 1 is just more in demand

 

[brakeyawself]

Myra they aren’t just going to play him because his bigger. Check out some Robertson clips of him in the W last year. It’s not like he’s a purely Defensive D. obviously if you have a bigger guy and a smaller guy in the same talent range when all’s said and done, you go with the bigger guy because 9 outta 10 times they are harder to play against, their bodies can take more abuse etc.

Fair. IF they are in the same tier. I will check out more of Robertson.

I guess I just see Jones, Schneider and Lundkvist in a clear tier above Robertson and even Miller at this point. As far as potential or even current ability. But yea, I will check it out.

 

[jay from jersey]

Fair. IF they are in the same tier. I will check out more of Robertson.

I guess I just see Jones, Schneider and Lundkvist in a clear tier above Robertson and even Miller at this point. As far as potential or even current ability. But yea, I will check it out.

Yea at this point, Jones development wise is for sure ahead, but in a years time it could be a different story. It sucks that we aren’t going to have spots for all our young D cause we’re stacked back there.

Schneider didn’t beat Robertson out by Much for WHL D-man of the year. He was robbed dammit lol. Schneider deserved it. Both guys were beasts

 

[jay from jersey]

Don't forget Gustavsson in goal either. He was the 2nd best goalie in the entire NHL towards the end of last season, only surpassed by the play of Swayman. Murray has floundered in Ottawa and while there is a chance he can still turn things around, I fully expect Gustavsson to eventually steal his job. I do hope they give him a real chance this season. I think Murray is untradeable at current, so they probably need to run his contract out. But Gustavsson is one of the best unheralded young goalies in the game. I think a lot of people forget about him or gave up on him because he was drafted kind of far back. But he was so young and is still just 23 yo now. So he's entering that breakout age range for goalies.

But yea, they do have a terrific young core of D prospects. Brannstrom, I am not sure what to expect. I think the biggest difference between their young D and the Rangers is where they are in their progression. Rangers young D, for the most part, seem well ahead of the Sens youth D in development. Outside of Sanderson and Brannstrom, and Zub I guess, I am really not sure if the rest are close to deserving playing time. And I don't think any will surpass Chabot in terms of offense and PP with only Sanderson probably surpassing him defensively. The fact that they added Mete is a sign to me though that most of their young D are still not where they want them to be. Even Brannstrom, who has shown a lot of improvement, is not looking like the player many thought he could be. Especially when you consider he was the key piece in trading away one of the leagues best goal scorers and 2 way forwards in Stone. That deal not looking so hot for the Sens. All though I think they've used their draft picks well.

Boucher is interesting. I actually think the Rangers were going to take Boucher ahead of Othmann until Sens beat them to the punch. A lot of people sleeping on Boucher's potential as a future power forward. And yea, I think Norris and Pinto are going to be an excellent 1-2 punch down the middle. But I think they blew a shot to get an even better young center than Pinto when they made that deal with the Kings. Sens ended up with Ostapchuk who might turn out good, but they had a chance to draft Pinelli who was a huge steal at that point in the 2nd. I was really hoping Drury would have traded into the 2nd honestly to take either Pinelli or Raty. Which unfortunately for us, didn't happen. Both are 1st round talents in that draft class IMO.

I’m with you, I’d have loved to grab Pinelli in the 2nd in a trade. I don’t hate the Othmann pick either, but I would have went Lucius or Wallstedt with our 1st.
Yea Ott is stacked. I love that Fomenton kid too. He’s prob going to top out as a middle six/3rd liner, but an ideal 1. A big mean kid that hits everything and can give you around 20 goals. Like a physical little less talented Version of Kreider. They are a team to watch for sure

 

[pld459666]

Not to mention Miller.

And potentially Lundkvist.

And I was not impressed with him at all last year.

Kid is good.

 

[Rempe73]

reading a current Kings thread, Vilardi seems like the odd man out and he and Turcotte both have injury concerns. The topic is being discussed because of Denault. Who is worth keeping as a wing, and who is expendable? Byfield is rightfully out of the equation, and Turcotte/Vilardi both have their warts.

Kings fans seem to think Turcotte is their guy in the same way we see chytil, a wing who can take draws in a pinch, with Vilardi as the weaker option. Im not sold on Vilardi for Miller at all and I'm not a "rose colored glasses" Miller supporter given our depth and options.

Agreed, Ott is NOT trading Sanderson. They hit gold with that kid. Anchor material.

I’m not too high on Miller right now and I do think we need to trade one of our young D for one of their young centers, but man. Seeing “Miller for Vilardi” makes me uneasy. It would be foolish to give up on Miller this early. I don’t mind Vilardi though. Maybe one of Robertson/Reunanen and one of Barron/a 2nd rounder for him.

 

[jay from jersey]

I see this for the next 2 years and I can’t wait to watch it unfold

Lindgren Fox
Miller Trouba
Nemeth Lundkvist
Jones Schneider

HM
Robertson
Reunanen

I don’t think it’s going to shake out that way unfortunately. Next season things really begin to clog up and be a problem. Schneider will be ready to go next year for 3rd pair duty, no doubt. He looks like he can play now if we weren’t so deep. The clock is ticking for Jones/Miller/Lundkvist
This year
Lindgren-Fox
Miller-Trouba
Nemeth-Lundkvist/ Jones
Hajek/Tinordi

next season
Lindgren-Fox
Miller/Jones/Lundkvist-Trouba
Nemeth-Schneider
Hajek/Tinordi

Robertson could be in the mix for that 3rd LD spot by next camp or be an injury call up mid season and not go down again like many we’ve seen before- Girardi/Sauer etc
Hopefully skinner keeps developing in Hartford as a cheap legit 3rd pair option as well 2 years from now. I’m also sure we will draft more D-men.
Teams Defenses on 3rd pair are usually a cheap vet and a cheap rookie he helps break in. I don’t see our situation being any different. Your top 4 guys are your minute eaters and guys that make the most cash. It’s how it plays out everywhere.
We aren’t going to be able to keep Schneider in the A for a full 2 years until we can trade Trouba ( maybe). That’s pure fantasy and can do more harm then good for his development.
They also are not going to go backwards and put miller/Lundkvist/Jones there is they too are ready for the show.
You will also have Robertson coming up nipping at their heels trying to break in 3rd pair duty. Ideally, you wouldn’t want 2 rookies on 3rd pair, but it’s been done. Especially if Schneider-Robertson pairing play like monsters all year in the A together this season. Plus in that instance, Nemeth would kind of be like their safety net.
It’s just not logically or realistic that everyone stays. Odds are we are trading likely 2 of Miller/Jones/Lundkvist. 100%. One of them, but likely 2.
The writing is on the wall

 

[cwede]

reading a current Kings thread, Vilardi seems like the odd man out and he and Turcotte both have injury concerns. The topic is being discussed because of Denault. Who is worth keeping as a wing, and who is expendable? Byfield is rightfully out of the equation, and Turcotte/Vilardi both have their warts. Kings fans seem to think Turcotte is their guy in the same way we see chytil, a wing who can take draws in a pinch, with Vilardi as the weaker option. Im not sold on Vilardi for Miller at all and I'm not a "rose colored glasses" Miller supporter given our depth and options...

I’m not too high on Miller right now and I do think we need to trade one of our young D for one of their young centers, but man. Seeing “Miller for Vilardi” makes me uneasy. It would be foolish to give up on Miller this early. I don’t mind Vilardi though. Maybe one of Robertson/Reunanen and one of Barron/a 2nd rounder for him.

Jones<>Kupari is the win-win ... since Miller-Byfield wouldn't happen

 

[Rempe73]

Jones<>Kupari is the win-win ... since Miller-Byfield wouldn't happen

Decent trade for both teams, but I don’t know if I’m as sold on Kupari. Jones idk. Sell high? Or does he have real potential? I just don’t know right now.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Jones<>Kupari is the win-win ... since Miller-Byfield wouldn't happen

What would the comparables in terms of value be if we were to match our Ds to their Cs?

Fox - Byfield
Lundkvist - Turcotte
Miller - Vilardi
Jones - Kupari
Robertson - Thomas
Reunanen - Madden

Something like this?

 

[NYRFANMANI]

What would the comparables in terms of value be if we were to match our Ds to their Cs?

Fox - Byfield
Lundkvist - Turcotte
Miller - Vilardi
Jones - Kupari
Robertson - Thomas
Reunanen - Madden

Something like this?

No knock on Reunanen but that looks like a steal.

 

[cwede]

What would the comparables in terms of value be if we were to match our Ds to their Cs?
Fox - Byfield
Lundkvist - Turcotte
Miller - Vilardi
Jones - Kupari
Robertson - Thomas
Reunanen - Madden
Something like this?

makes close to sense, I like Nils overall more than Turcotte but Turc def has skills
and i like Robertson over Thomas, but only know Thomas from stats and reports, haven't seem him play
Madden was productive at Northeastern, but he is small-ish and IIRC coming off injury

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

No knock on Reunanen but that looks like a steal.

Would be cool to reunite Madden with Jack Hughes' older brother

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Fox has more value than byfield.

quite a bit more.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Fox has more value than byfield.

quite a bit more.

Yeah, but I didn't know who else to use in that scenario for Byfield.

 

[RagFinMet]

Yeah, but I didn't know who else to use in that scenario for Byfield.

Fox for byfield, turcotte and first round pick

 

[TGWL]

Give them both 1 game against the islanders, or similar style team (Full roster in season form) who play a very close-gap game and then we can answer this question. Everything changes when the season starts and the opposite might be the more consistent player for us. Preseason and scrimmages are really hard to determine who is going to be better this season. My concern with both of them is more about what happens when pinning in their own zone with lots of board battles and corner chases. I'm not really concerned with what happens over the red line or best outlet pass as I think they both bring good skill for that.