Nikita Kucherov is the clear favorite for the Art Ross Trophy

[Flat Ronnie]

The Avs are deeper than Tampa is right now. Point and Stamkos combine for 77 goals. Kucherov isn't exactly on an island.

He absolutely was for almost 3/4 of the year. Vasy was out and Stamkos and Point were sucking ass. Kucherov was the one and only reason that team stayed afloat.

If the MVP goes to the player that means the most to his team, that player is Kucherov. The Lightning might hit 100 points this years and every Oz of thanks goes to Kucherov's herculean effort.

 

[Dingo]

who here is happy to see three prime, healthy superstars battling it out in a scoring friendly league???

anyone here put that statement above the petty hilarity running through this thread?

 

[McShogun99]

Mac and McDavid are both having great years, but without Kuch Tampa isn't a playoff team. When Vasy was our the first 1/4 of the season he carried the team to be around .500. Edmonton, Colorado and Tampa all have talented cores, but the point differences between Kuch and the next highest scoring Tampa player is pretty insane. Kuch has been responsible for majority of any offensive production.

Colorado still makes playoffs without MacKinnon. Edmonton, not sure. Tampa has been hot this last month but wad a dumpster fire for 60% of the year and we're lucky to stay afloat.

Tampa is still a stacked team when healthy. Kucherov gets all the points but the team is carried by Vasilevsky. It's no coincidence that Tampa is hot now that he's fully healthy. That being said him and Mackinnon fully deserve the Hart this season for what they're doing.

I'm obviously an Oiler fan but i don't think Mcdavid has put the team on his back this year compared to previous seasons. Maybe the standards for him are to high but it just seems like a good year for Mcdavid, not a great one while Mackinnon and Kucherov are having the best regular season of their careers.

 

[Horvat1C]

In my opinion, its a two-horse race for the Hart.

Going into the season, the Lightning knew they were in a position where they had less depth than ever before. Their solution to this problem was to rely on Kucherov more than every before, and he's delivered. Those three Canucks had that incredible start, but Kucherov carried the scoring lead for most of the year. His consistency throughout the year deserves recognition and would be his biggest advantage over his main opponent (in my mind).

• 48 points than his next closest teammate
• Most assists by a winger ever
• Highest % of team scoring
• Highest PPG against strong competition (1.92 vs. top-5 teams, 2.25 vs teams 6-10)

In the first month of the season, the entire hockey world got a chance to see what the Oilers were without McDavid being the best player in the world. What they were was the team that lost to the Sharks. After a devastating start that would've crippled most franchises, McDavid returned to form and lifted their corpse of a team back to life. The fact that they were comfortably in a Playoff spot months ago and not fighting to get in at the end of the season is ridiculous given the state of their division at the time. Everyone knows he's the best player in the world, but this is truly one of the most incredible seasons of his career given everything he's been through in one year. That type of in season turnaround is impossible for mortals. Throw in the fact that he'll hit a Gretzky level assist total and could win the scoring race after starting a month later and his Hart case is extremely compelling in a very close year.


I don't see any advantage that MacKinnon has over those two. He plays with the strongest teammates and doesn't really have any distinguishing stats. If he wins the scoring race it won't be by much. Breaking Gretzky's home scoring streak would have been a strong addition to his case, but I'd personally favour the others more even with that. He has been absolutely dominant on the ice and a top-3 player in the world, but I don't see the level of distinguishing achievements that the others have. The biggest thing is that he was consistent for the entire year compared to McDavid, but that doesn't separate him from Kucherov. He is due for a Hart though and I agree it would be odd for him to retire without one, but I don't think that's an argument that should have any weight here.

Guys like Matthews, Q. Hughes, Crosby, Josi, Pastrnak, Panarin, etc. have had incredible years and won't sniff the Hart, truly ridiculous.

 

[JoeSakic13]

2 player race unless McDavid steps it up

Accurate up until recently, but all 3 of these guys have shown that they’re more than capable to put up a 3-4 point night regularly.

Edmonton still has 2 more games to play than Colorado or Tampa. So there is still a good chance for all 3 players.

 

[CupsOverCash]

All 3 are deserving as they have carried their teams and are really just having insane seasons.

I don't think they should do it this way but do you think they would do like a 3 way tie for mvp? You've seen them do like a co mvp thing where both has the argument to win nobody really likes it when it happens but it is hard to choose. You look through the thread and if one of them win could pick out one of those comments on why they would win and only argument you have against is my guy is having this insane season too..but they're both not wrong.

 

[tucker3434]

He absolutely was for almost 3/4 of the year. Vasy was out and Stamkos and Point were sucking ass. Kucherov was the one and only reason that team stayed afloat.

If the MVP goes to the player that means the most to his team, that player is Kucherov. The Lightning might hit 100 points this years and every Oz of thanks goes to Kucherov's herculean effort.

I feel like we talk this thing into a circle. None of these guys are doing this on their own. Kucherov has the AR lead because he has more assists than MacKinnon. He got those assists because Point and Stamkos put the puck in the net. We can argue about whether it was Kucherov's excellent passing or Stamkos/Point's excellent scoring that got them a handful more goals than MacKinnon's teammates, but there's not going to be any resolution. It's probably a bit of both.

Kucherov might be the reason the Lightning hit 100 points, but MacKinnon is the reason the Avs could hit 110. With our hit and miss goaltending, Makar likely playing through injury, Nichushkin missing significant time, Landeskog missing all of it, we're probably just a bubble team if it was just the Rantanen show. There's pretty significant value in MacKinnon turning us into a cup contender.

 

[These Are The Days]

Don't let all of this distract you from the fact that McDavid was all "Why they gotta be out there running their top guys on a power play during blow out? Kinda classless if you ask me"

Whatever the hell it was

 

[AppreciateHockey]

Vasilevskiy has less wins and a worse save % than Skinner so declaring he carries the Lightning instead of Kucherov is beyond me. And the Tampa roster has been gutted over the years with a lot wear and tear which shows.

Also, the Oilers resurrection had a lot to do with a new coach, Ekholm coming back which helped Bouchard a lot. On top of that Skinner playing like an actual NHL caliber goalie.

 

[Cup or Bust]

The outscoring the next closest teammate argument needs to be made with context. Often when a player outscores the 2nd highest scorer on their team by a wide margin and they are one of the top scorers in the league it usually means their team has good depth. Tampa has way better forward depth then Colorado. Nishuskin has missed almost 30 games and beyond him Colorado's forward depth is extremely weak, especially top 6 forward depth. Tampa has 4 forwards with 70+ points. Colorado has 2 and Edmonton has 3. You cannot widen the gap between top scorers on a team when only a few players are scoring points. Colorado's forward depth has been pretty terrible this season, it's amazing they have been a top team in the league and they certainly haven't had a goaltending advantage over anyone. If Mackinnon wins the Hart it is because he deserves it, not because he is due. Colorado has been a top team most of the season in spite of weak top 6 forward depth, mediocre goaltending, injuries etc. That is the definition of an MVP.

A good argument can be made for all 3 if someone wants to be unbiased. All 3 could win and it's well deserved, it just depends what factors you choose to value the most.

 

[Video Nasty]

All 3 are deserving as they have carried their teams and are really just having insane seasons.

I don't think they should do it this way but do you think they would do like a 3 way tie for mvp? You've seen them do like a co mvp thing where both has the argument to win nobody really likes it when it happens but it is hard to choose. You look through the thread and if one of them win could pick out one of those comments on why they would win and only argument you have against is my guy is having this insane season too..but they're both not wrong.

Theodore and Iginla tied in total voting in 2001-2002. The tiebreaker went to Theodore for having more first place votes.

 

[wetcoast]

He absolutely was for almost 3/4 of the year. Vasy was out and Stamkos and Point were sucking ass. Kucherov was the one and only reason that team stayed afloat.

If the MVP goes to the player that means the most to his team, that player is Kucherov. The Lightning might hit 100 points this years and every Oz of thanks goes to Kucherov's herculean effort.

3/4 of the year...seriously, I took a quick look and both guys have actually pretty decent splits and you somehow left out Hedman....wonder why eh?

 

[WarriorofTime]

You may as well just admit it was some pretty faulty logic, resorting to "why are you worried about what I think" basically screams you know it made no sense at all.

Its a message board lol, sometimes I see things I agree with and other times I see things I disagree with and I engage in banter. It is what it is


you're probably right, I just like to poke the bear sometimes

You never refuted my point.

 

[Senor Catface]

Dont be mad its a fact

I’m not mad.

Answer the question.

 

[Mez]

Well this thread took a turn for the worse.

Pretty sure it's Kucherov's...easiest schedule and also has the lead, question is if he rests some games or not.
McDavid has most games but a tough schedule with 2 back to backs....now that the division is out of reach he will likely rest some games.
MacK has tough teams left and I'm assuming they won't rest him with the division title being a possibility...he could catch up.

 

[crowfish]

This is bullshit.

Did he not go on the ice the other game and cherry pick from the neutral zone with the empty net?

Or do you just not like that I am reporting reality?

What part is the bullshit?

"I don't like what your saying therefore it is bullshit" lol

 

[dmac7719]

The outscoring the next closest teammate argument needs to be made with context.

 

[killa3312]

Is it really disrespect of the fact that McDavid got an injury and Kuch is having a career year?

Pretty bold post now though eh?

Technically speaking, Kucherov is having a career year, but let’s not pretend like he also doesn’t already have a 128 point season behind him also, lol. This isn’t some random season where he’s never had 100+ points before and then exploded out of nowhere. He’s previously gone head to head, and beat McDavid, in a points race already.

 

[Regal]

In my opinion, its a two-horse race for the Hart.

Going into the season, the Lightning knew they were in a position where they had less depth than ever before. Their solution to this problem was to rely on Kucherov more than every before, and he's delivered. Those three Canucks had that incredible start, but Kucherov carried the scoring lead for most of the year. His consistency throughout the year deserves recognition and would be his biggest advantage over his main opponent (in my mind).

• 48 points than his next closest teammate
• Most assists by a winger ever
• Highest % of team scoring
• Highest PPG against strong competition (1.92 vs. top-5 teams, 2.25 vs teams 6-10)

In the first month of the season, the entire hockey world got a chance to see what the Oilers were without McDavid being the best player in the world. What they were was the team that lost to the Sharks. After a devastating start that would've crippled most franchises, McDavid returned to form and lifted their corpse of a team back to life. The fact that they were comfortably in a Playoff spot months ago and not fighting to get in at the end of the season is ridiculous given the state of their division at the time. Everyone knows he's the best player in the world, but this is truly one of the most incredible seasons of his career given everything he's been through in one year. That type of in season turnaround is impossible for mortals. Throw in the fact that he'll hit a Gretzky level assist total and could win the scoring race after starting a month later and his Hart case is extremely compelling in a very close year.


I don't see any advantage that MacKinnon has over those two. He plays with the strongest teammates and doesn't really have any distinguishing stats. If he wins the scoring race it won't be by much. Breaking Gretzky's home scoring streak would have been a strong addition to his case, but I'd personally favour the others more even with that. He has been absolutely dominant on the ice and a top-3 player in the world, but I don't see the level of distinguishing achievements that the others have. The biggest thing is that he was consistent for the entire year compared to McDavid, but that doesn't separate him from Kucherov. He is due for a Hart though and I agree it would be odd for him to retire without one, but I don't think that's an argument that should have any weight here.

Guys like Matthews, Q. Hughes, Crosby, Josi, Pastrnak, Panarin, etc. have had incredible years and won't sniff the Hart, truly ridiculous.

I think there’s a lot of reputation with the Avs and Oilers that isn’t actually true this year. The Avs have a slightly negative goal differential with MacKinnon off the ice 5v5. The Oilers are slightly positive without McDavid. The Oilers have also been one of the best possession teams in the league this year (while the Avs are a bit above average), even back to their poor start. While McDavid’s injury plagued start was certainly part of it, it was obvious the Oilers bad star was one of those things where everything was going wrong on top of it, and it’s not just McDavid getting healthier that has caused the turnaround, they’ve been much better since overall. Lots of people seem to be assuming the Avs make the playoffs without MacKinnon and I’m not sure that’s the case. Even Makar has bad underlying numbers with MacKinnon off the ice. Their depth hasn’t been there this year.

I can see the case for Kucherov being more valuable (though I believe he’s been the 3rd best overall player of the three), but I don’t see what distinguishes McDavid from MacKinnon this year in terms of actual value other than the comeback is a nice story.

 

[Grifter3511]

The outscoring the next closest teammate argument needs to be made with context. Often when a player outscores the 2nd highest scorer on their team by a wide margin and they are one of the top scorers in the league it usually means their team has good depth. Tampa has way better forward depth then Colorado. Nishuskin has missed almost 30 games and beyond him Colorado's forward depth is extremely weak, especially top 6 forward depth. Tampa has 4 forwards with 70+ points. Colorado has 2 and Edmonton has 3. You cannot widen the gap between top scorers on a team when only a few players are scoring points. Colorado's forward depth has been pretty terrible this season, it's amazing they have been a top team in the league and they certainly haven't had a goaltending advantage over anyone. If Mackinnon wins the Hart it is because he deserves it, not because he is due. Colorado has been a top team most of the season in spite of weak top 6 forward depth, mediocre goaltending, injuries etc. That is the definition of an MVP.

A good argument can be made for all 3 if someone wants to be unbiased. All 3 could win and it's well deserved, it just depends what factors you choose to value the most.

I've seen the 'Makar with Mackinnon' vs 'Makar away from Mackinnon' stats in the Norris thread a bunch to indicate how much Mackinnon seems to be carrying Makar this year. I wonder if instead of Players pts vs the next closest on his team as an indicator of value to the team, looking at the rest of the teams stats when playing with said player vs when not. If one player bumps the majority of his team's underlying stats up significantly more than another, would that not be a better indicator of his value to the team than the pt difference?

Perhaps this has already happened in this thread and I've missed it over the 127 pages.

 

[Horvat1C]

I think there’s a lot of reputation with the Avs and Oilers that isn’t actually true this year. The Avs have a slightly negative goal differential with MacKinnon off the ice 5v5. The Oilers are slightly positive without McDavid. The Oilers have also been one of the best possession teams in the league this year (while the Avs are a bit above average), even back to their poor start. While McDavid’s injury plagued start was certainly part of it, it was obvious the Oilers bad star was one of those things where everything was going wrong on top of it, and it’s not just McDavid getting healthier that has caused the turnaround, they’ve been much better since overall. Lots of people seem to be assuming the Avs make the playoffs without MacKinnon and I’m not sure that’s the case. Even Makar has bad underlying numbers with MacKinnon off the ice. Their depth hasn’t been there this year.

I can see the case for Kucherov being more valuable (though I believe he’s been the 3rd best overall player of the three), but I don’t see what distinguishes McDavid from MacKinnon this year in terms of actual value other than the comeback is a nice story.

I don't view it as McDavid simply got better after a poor start. I view it as extenuating circumstances (his injury or whatever it was) fundamentally crippling both his personal and team's performance so severely that most would not recover at all. The weight from this is compounded by the fact that he is in Edmonton of all markets. They lost to the Sharks, the season should have been over by March.

From the lowest possible abyss that any athlete could find themselves in, McDavid was able to dig deeper than anyone else I've seen in recent memory and not only turn the season around, but do so in like 2 months. I wouldn't have been that surprised if they scratched their way in to the final WC spot in the last weeks of the season, but they were almost challenging for the division. They were in a Playoff spot in January. I view that as a monumental ascension rather than a simple turnaround. Remember how stacked the Pacific was with VAN, VGK and LAK at the start of the year? The team that lost to the Sharks cut through that in 2 months on the back of McDavid.

I might be giving McDavid more credit individually than others, but you can't cite them being a 1-2 man team as a flaw but then give the whole team credit when things go well. I understand that Skinner, the defense, the coaching and the team overall improved, but I attribute that to everything falling in place under the leader, driver and best player in the world regaining his fire more so than others it seems.

The Hockey Gods themselves put McDavid and the Oilers in the grave at the start of the year and McDavid found more. I think if he wins this would be a more remarkable Hart than his 100 point bubble year or last year.

 

[Cup or Bust]

I've seen the 'Makar with Mackinnon' vs 'Makar away from Mackinnon' stats in the Norris thread a bunch to indicate how much Mackinnon seems to be carrying Makar this year. I wonder if instead of Players pts vs the next closest on his team as an indicator of value to the team, looking at the rest of the teams stats when playing with said player vs when not. If one player bumps the majority of his team's underlying stats up significantly more than another, would that not be a better indicator of his value to the team than the pt difference?

Perhaps this has already happened in this thread and I've missed it over the 127 pages.

I am sure a person could dig more into stats and find other things to consider. A different person might value different factors more then I do. Colorado's lack of depth for most of the season might explain why Makar's scoring is much lower without Mackinnon, because realistically there is not a lot of quality forwards on that team to combine with for goals. That likely gives more evidence to how poor Colorado's forward depth has been for a lot of this season. Makar is an amazing player, I don't think he is the problem not being able to combine with Ross Colton for more goals this season. Even if Tampa's players score more with Kucherov then without, I would rather "lift" those forwards then what is on Colorado outside of Rantanen. I absolutely do not take anything away from Kucherov, he has had an amazing season and I think a great argument for either Kucherov or McDavid to win the Hart can be as well, I just feel overall Mackinnon has been the leagues MVP this season and that probably has to do with the fact I think Tampa is actually a good team and a roster I think I would rather have on a Cup run over either Colorado or Edmonton. I would probably give McDavid more credit as well if he wasn't McDavid for the pretty amazing comeback both he and the Oilers made this season and I am an Oilers fan but I can be objective enough to say that another player might deserve it more then he does.

 

[olli]

Empty net points are the new faceoff assist points.

daver has spoken!!

 

[OurlordAndSaviorKuch]

People truly have a bug up their arse when it comes to Kuch for some reason.

The only reason we are remotely in a playoff spot is because he has carried this team kicking and screaming while vasy was hurt and while he was sucking as well as while Point and Stammer have sucked ass this year. Kuch has carried this team and willing it to a playoffs spot.

If this award truly means it is supposed to go the player who has meant the most to his team, Then it has to go to Kuch.

Did he not go on the ice the other game and cherry pick from the neutral zone with the empty net?

Or do you just not like that I am reporting reality?

What part is the bullshit?

"I don't like what your saying therefore it is bullshit" lol

What you call cherry picking we call putting games away and doing what Coop has probably told him to do so it makes the other teams defense back off and have to cover him so they can’t hem us into our own end.

Regardless we get it, you hate Kuch.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

People don't like Kuch because he's Russian. They tried to downplay his cheevos during the repeat by saying Brayden Point was better.

If Nikita Kucherov was from Churchill, MB or Yellowgrass, SK, there would be countless posters on HF pumping his tires.