Nikita Kucherov is the clear favorite for the Art Ross Trophy

[The Macho King]

As good as Kucherov is, prime Jagr's on-ice dominance was on a different level. The guy put up nearly 130 points during the height of the dead puck era and after Lemieux returned in his comeback season he put up 81 points in 45 games, also at the height of the dead puck era. I'd dare say no player today would be able to do so. Also, a guy like prime 66 wouldn't be denied in a Ross race against Kuch or MacKinnon. As great as they are.

The height of the DPE was 2003-4, not 96/97.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

I know this is the AR thread, but I still think MacKinnon takes the Hart if he's within 5 pts of the lead.

The eye test still matters, and IMO he has been the best overall player this year. High speed rushes, end to end rushes, zone entries, etc. he does so much and is all over the ice. He is also the only one of the 3 that brings the physical element he does. Multiple big hits this year illustrate that, and just his ability to maintain possession doesn't always show up on the stat sheet but its a big reason the Avs are doing so well. Obviously, the narrative helps his case but I truly believe he is deserving.

At the end of the day all 3 are worthy of an MVP for their play this season, and whoever wins it - there will be a lot of debate but whichever player wins will have been deserving of it. What a year for all 3.

 

[Primary Assist]

If only the Bolts played the Leafs every night, Kuch could be chasing the Great One

 

[Albatros]

Toroto's #25 Timmons clearly touches the puck, negating Kucherov's secondary assist.

The puck may touch an opponent as long as that opponent does not gain possession or play the puck.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You don't get more points by simply playing at C. He is an offensive-minded W who benefits from being free of the defensive responsibilities of a C while having the offense run through him.

Their numbers speak for themselves. You start playing the "what if" game and you start pages and pages of subjective opinions on hypothetical scenarios.

Centers add a good number of assists via faceoffs. Like MacKinnon is garbage at faceoffs and still takes them, I wonder how many assists that adds to his total.

 

[VinikToWinIt]

The best players get put at C. It's not some random thing. If Kucherov could be more effective at C, he would play C.

Among takes, this is one of them.

 

[WarriorofTime]

"best players" is vague. do you want to try this post again and see if you can crystallize your thought more coherently?

i agree with the latter though. if kucherov was a better center he would play center. you really nailed that one.

It’s a Canada thing. Ever since Gretzky/Lemieux there’s been a movement to put the best kid on every youth team at center. This carries up levels. Moving to winger is a “demotion” more or less. If you look over the years, almost all the best Canadian draft prospects at forward are natural centers and you only get a wing every now and then like Marner and Lafreniere, despite wings taking up 2/3 of the forward spots in a given lineup. Wasn’t always the case (Richard, Howe, Hull, LaFleur were all in best forward discussion during their era) but has become far more prevalent in modern times. Even kids that probably should have moved to wing because their defense and faceoffs aren’t great will stay as Centers if their pedigree is high enough.

This isn’t really the case elsewhere (and in Russia based on the old Soviet way was generally the opposite where you’d want your most dynamic forward at wing). The hyper Canadian focus on nhl coverage carries this over to the non-empirical belief that centers are just inherently much more important. You’ll see this with Kucherov where he can nearly lap his teammates in points but people will say “well they have great centers”, implicitly looking for a center to give credit to.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Among takes, this is one of them.

I'm surprised he's getting pushback.

At every level of hockey in Canada in every region the best players get pushed to centre.

This should hardly be controversial. It's dogma in Canadian hockey training.

You see the same thing in the US.

Look at the last 10 1st overall picks from Canada.

6 centres
2 defensemen
2 wingers

 

[WarriorofTime]

I'm surprised he's getting pushback.

At every level of hockey in Canada in every region the best players get pushed to centre.

This should hardly be controversial. It's dogma in Canadian hockey training.

You see the same thing in the US.

The U.S. is a bit more balanced from my perpsective. I suppose in some ways the USNDTP model forces it because on a top line, only one kid in the center as opposed to the top kids getting diffused through 60 different CHL teams so they are all top line center (more or less, some have to wait for the older guys to leave, but you know what I mean) on theirs.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

2018:

MacKinnon leads avs by 13 pts
Hall Leads Devils by 41 pts

Hall wins

2020:

MacKinnon leads avs by 43 pts
Draisaitl leads Oilers by 13 pts

Drai Wins

2024 thus far:

Kuch leads Lightning by 47 pts
MacK leads avs by 27 pts.


Winner tbd.


MacK has been on the wrong end of the voting in these scenarios twice. Seems like the voters go back and forth on what MVP actually means

 

[daver]

Centers add a good number of assists via faceoffs. Like MacKinnon is garbage at faceoffs and still takes them, I wonder how many assists that adds to his total.

How many points does he lose by having to take on greater defensive responsibilities?

 

[WarriorofTime]

How many points does he lose by having to take on greater defensive responsibilities?

That’s a more ambiguous question but we do know that centers as a whole, get more points than wingers. Not sure to what extent that has to do with faceoffs, what extent it has to do with Canadians (largest nhl talent producer) putting all their best kids at center, what extent it has to do with offensive schemes to funnel offense through them. Even very offensive minded centers that don’t play good defense will get the occasional offensive zone faceoff assist regardless.

 

[Video Nasty]

2018:

MacKinnon leads avs by 13 pts
Hall Leads Devils by 41 pts

Hall wins

2020:

MacKinnon leads avs by 43 pts
Draisaitl leads Oilers by 13 pts

Drai Wins

2024 thus far:

Kuch leads Lightning by 47 pts
MacK leads avs by 27 pts.


Winner tbd.


MacK has been on the wrong end of the voting in these scenarios twice. Seems like the voters go back and forth on what MVP actually means

Voters probably dinged him in the past for his quiet down the stretch play.

2018: 1 goal and 7 assists for 8 points in final 10 games.

2020: 2 goals and 7 assists for 9 points in what turned out to be the final 10 games (COVID halt). Let’s not forget that he was also 17 points out of the scoring race and had four players ahead of him. Not saying you are, but finishing as high as he did can hardly be considered robbery, in fact it’s commendable.

I don’t know why anyone is even hung up on this. He’s been great enough to at least justify the desire to finally give him his flowers and I think it’s been decided among most voters for nearly half a season now that he’s getting the Hart unless something went horribly wrong during the final month of the season.

I would give it to Kucherov if the season ended abruptly, but for the most part, I think it’s a topic that people are just going around in circles for nothing. It’s been decided and has been for quite some time now, right or wrong.

 

[daver]

That’s a more ambiguous question but we do know that centers as a whole, get more points than wingers. Not sure to what extent that has to do with faceoffs, what extent it has to do with Canadians (largest nhl talent producer) putting all their best kids at center, what extent it has to do with offensive schemes to funnel offense through them. Even very offensive minded centers that don’t play good defense will get the occasional offensive zone faceoff assist regardless.

And everything you said is ambiguous too.

As I said, you can take their point totals at face value. If anyone contributes more than just points, its MacKinnon. Throwing out "faceoff assists" as a way to pump up Kucherov can be easily countered with plus/minus.

Even very offensive minded centers that don’t play good defense will get the occasional offensive zone faceoff assist regardless.

Does MacKinnon play bad defense?

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Voters probably dinged him in the past for his quiet down the stretch play.

2018: 1 goal and 7 assists for 8 points in final 10 games.

2020: 2 goals and 7 assists for 9 points in what turned out to be the final 10 games (COVID halt). Let’s not forget that he was also 17 games out of the scoring race and had four players ahead of him. Not saying you are, but finishing as high as he did can hardly be considered robbery.

I don’t know why anyone is even hung up on this. He’s been great enough to at least justify the desire to finally give him his flowers and I think it’s been decided among most voters for nearly half a season now that he’s getting the Hart unless something went horribly wrong during the final month of the season.

I would give it to Kucherov if the season ended abruptly, but for the most part, I think it’s a topic that people are just going around in circles for nothing. It’s been decided and has been for quite some time now, right or wrong.

I hate the idea that the last 10 games are weighted more than any 10 games out of 82. MacK deserved the Hart in 2018. Nobody in their right mind was taking Hall over MacKinnon.

Hall had an amazing individual season, but isn't elevating your teammates supposed to mean you make your team better than thus are more valuable to your team? MacKinnon creates so much space for his linemates he can make anyone ppg when they play with him, Rantanen would have had like 60 pts playing with Hall that year IMO.


2020 Drai deserved it, I just find it funny how the exact reason he lost 2 years prior somehow didn't work in his favor that year. The gap was actually bigger, and McDavid was almost equally as valuable to the success of the oilers that year. I think its a tossup this year, I just find it funny how voting validation changes so much year to year

 

[WalterLundy]

1998-99: EVG: 1.84, PPG: 0.69, SHG: 0.10
2023-24: EVG: 2.35, PPG: 0.63, SHG: 0.09

‘99 Jagr in ‘24 levels:
81 GP: 52 G, 93 A, 145 PTS (1.79)
(42 EVG, 9 PPG, 1 SHG)
(62 EVA, 31 PPA, 0 SHA)

Through 74 games:
74 GP: 43 G, 90 A, 133 PTS (1.80)
(34 EVG, 8 PPG, 1 SHG)
(61 EVA, 29 PPA, 0 SHA)

‘24 Kucherov:
74 GP: 42 G, 88 A, 130 PTS (1.76)
(30 EVG, 12 PPG, 0 SHG)
(53 EVA, 35 PPA, 0 SHA)

I think we all need to appreciate just how great Kucherov is. He deserves way more respect than he gets. His year is basically as good as the peak Jagr season. I absolutely love his game and I believe that he still may squeak out the Ross this year and in my eyes deserves the Hart.

 

[WarriorofTime]

And everything you said is ambiguous too.

Not sure what you're talking about. I can't point to specific instances and say "oh MacKinnon would have gotten a point on that shift had he not backchecked" as easily as I can say "oh the Center got a 2nd assist because he won an offensive zone faceoff". Sometimes I think you just like arguing, man lol

 

[RussianGuyovich]

Does MacKinnon play bad defense?

yes, but just if you believe stats and don't have a cognitive bias to want him to be good at defense.

 

[The Macho King]

And everything you said is ambiguous too.

As I said, you can take their point totals at face value. If anyone contributes more than just points, its MacKinnon. Throwing out "faceoff assists" as a way to pump up Kucherov can be easily countered with plus/minus.




Does MacKinnon play bad defense?

I don't get this. Why? He's not good defensively, he has the best defenseman in the world on his team, and his linemates are solid to boot, so the only answer I can think of "it looks more impressive when he does it."

It's the Roy versus Hasek debate. What's more impressive - making hard things look hard or making hard things look easy? Most of these guys value can be pinned to pretty objective metrics. What metrics you decide to use is up for debate, but at the end of the day MacKinnon and Kucherov are tasked with the same job - make those little disks of vulcanized rubber hit twine. Kucherov is a slow player who creates a lot from the perimeter. MacKinnon is a bull in a china shop that always looks like he's skating down hill. Pucks hit twine at roughly the same rate, so why do I care how it's done?

 

[daver]

Not sure what you're talking about. I can't point to specific instances and say "oh MacKinnon would have gotten a point on that shift had he not backchecked" as easily as I can say "oh the Center got a 2nd assist because he won an offensive zone faceoff". Sometimes I think you just like arguing, man lol

The starting point for this discussion is "Centers get more points than wingers because of random assists; put any winger at center and their point totals automatically go up. Therefore Kucherov > Mac and McDavid".

Do you agree?

I don't get this. Why? He's not good defensively, he has the best defenseman in the world on his team, and his linemates are solid to boot, so the only answer I can think of "it looks more impressive when he does it."

It's the Roy versus Hasek debate. What's more impressive - making hard things look hard or making hard things look easy? Most of these guys value can be pinned to pretty objective metrics. What metrics you decide to use is up for debate, but at the end of the day MacKinnon and Kucherov are tasked with the same job - make those little disks of vulcanized rubber hit twine. Kucherov is a slow player who creates a lot from the perimeter. MacKinnon is a bull in a china shop that always looks like he's skating down hill. Pucks hit twine at roughly the same rate, so why do I care how it's done?

If you are happy to let their point totals speak for themselves and not give Kucherov bonus points for playing at the 'disadvantaged' Winger position, then we are good.

 

[Video Nasty]

I hate the idea that the last 10 games are weighted more than any 10 games out of 82. MacK deserved the Hart in 2018. Nobody in their right mind was taking Hall over MacKinnon.

Hall had an amazing individual season, but isn't elevating your teammates supposed to mean you make your team better than thus are more valuable to your team? MacKinnon creates so much space for his linemates he can make anyone ppg when they play with him, Rantanen would have had like 60 pts playing with Hall that year IMO.


2020 Drai deserved it, I just find it funny how the exact reason he lost 2 years prior somehow didn't work in his favor that year. The gap was actually bigger, and McDavid was almost equally as valuable to the success of the oilers that year. I think its a tossup this year, I just find it funny how voting validation changes so much year to year

Sometimes we just have to recognize that these are simply fellow humans, with bias, agendas, flaws, and simple ignorance running rampant through them, who are casting votes. These are important trophies and sometimes they’re slam dunks and other times not so much.

This season is one of those years where the votes should be razor thin between three different players and the entire body of work looked back on carefully at the end of the season, but realistically, I think it’s been decided by the majority for awhile.

I mean, it’s clear that McDavid should just win it year in and year out, but that’s not the way voting in sports usually works.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The starting point for this discussion is "Centers get more points than wingers because of random assists; put any winger at center and their point totals automatically go up. Therefore Kucherov > Mac and McDavid".

Do you agree?

I don't remember making this argument. I do probably think that if Nick Kutcher grew up in Halifax, there is a good chance he likely would have come up a Center and developed a bit differently and if Nafan Mackinov grew up in Moscow, there is a good chance he likely would have come up a Winger and developed a bit differently.

 

[RussianGuyovich]

The starting point for this discussion is "Centers get more points than wingers because of random assists; put any winger at center and their point totals automatically go up. Therefore Kucherov > Mac and McDavid".

Do you agree?

if kucherov was a center then he'd be better than macK because the best players are centers and hes the best. QED.

 

[The Macho King]

If you are happy to let their point totals speak for themselves and not give Kucherov bonus points for playing at the 'disadvantaged' Winger position, then we are good.

Eh I'm not the one making that argument. The league goes through trends on where the stars get put but for the last ~35ish years it's been largely in the middle. Go through the O6 though and most of the stars were put at the wing (probably true from the advent of the forward pass, honestly). I think Kucherov's skillset is more unique than MacKinnon's - just because high-end playmaking wingers are relatively rare, but that's just a curiousity and not anything about their abilities or value.

But that gets to another point - there's a lot of arguments that Cs are more valuable than Wingers. I've always found that as a convenient aphorism, but thinking that it applies to clear outliers (like Kucherov) is stinkin thinkin. The C/W defense dynamic hasn't been true for at least 15 years - almost every team applies some variety of F1 F2 F3 in the D zone. Additionally - McDavid or MacKinnon having "more defensive responsibilities" is... god damn use your brains people no one is tasking either of those guys to shut anyone down. But even taking the D zone argument out of it, that statement is generally true (but not true in every case) because it is easier to make plays from the center position. You have both sides of the ice to work with, you're often the most talented player on your line, and wingers *tend* to be more goal scoring oriented than Cs. But those general truths go out the window the second you run your offense through a winger instead of a C.

I just get a *little* frustrated at the "well he's a C so that's a better position" when talking about the elite talent in the league. It's incredibly lazy thinking when these guys (Kucherov, Panarin, used to be Kane) are clearly driving the play in a way that's normally reserved for a C, but from the wing.

 

[filinski77]

2018:

MacKinnon leads avs by 13 pts
Hall Leads Devils by 41 pts

Hall wins

2020:

MacKinnon leads avs by 43 pts
Draisaitl leads Oilers by 13 pts

Drai Wins

2024 thus far:

Kuch leads Lightning by 47 pts
MacK leads avs by 27 pts.


Winner tbd.


MacK has been on the wrong end of the voting in these scenarios twice. Seems like the voters go back and forth on what MVP actually means

I think it's a lot more simple than that.

1) Hall's 2018 Hart is generally seen as a complete anomaly. 6th in points and 9th in goals, while also being way behind #1 in goals and #1 in points is extremely rare to ever see a Hart winner do.

2) In 2020 Draisaitl had 17 more points and 8 more goals than Mackinnon. Drai deserved the win over Mackinnon

This year: Mackinnon and Kucherov are pretty neck and neck in both points and goals (I think McDavid is way too far back in goals to win), and could go either way. If it's THAT close, and the deciding factor is that Kucherov is just so much more above his next closes teammate, I think that's fair and there shouldn't be any Avs fans bitching about it.