Nikita Kucherov is the clear favorite for the Art Ross Trophy

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bambamcam4ever

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Eh I'm not the one making that argument. The league goes through trends on where the stars get put but for the last ~35ish years it's been largely in the middle. Go through the O6 though and most of the stars were put at the wing (probably true from the advent of the forward pass, honestly). I think Kucherov's skillset is more unique than MacKinnon's - just because high-end playmaking wingers are relatively rare, but that's just a curiousity and not anything about their abilities or value.

But that gets to another point - there's a lot of arguments that Cs are more valuable than Wingers. I've always found that as a convenient aphorism, but thinking that it applies to clear outliers (like Kucherov) is stinkin thinkin. The C/W defense dynamic hasn't been true for at least 15 years - almost every team applies some variety of F1 F2 F3 in the D zone. Additionally - McDavid or MacKinnon having "more defensive responsibilities" is... god damn use your brains people no one is tasking either of those guys to shut anyone down. But even taking the D zone argument out of it, that statement is generally true (but not true in every case) because it is easier to make plays from the center position. You have both sides of the ice to work with, you're often the most talented player on your line, and wingers *tend* to be more goal scoring oriented than Cs. But those general truths go out the window the second you run your offense through a winger instead of a C.

I just get a *little* frustrated at the "well he's a C so that's a better position" when talking about the elite talent in the league. It's incredibly lazy thinking when these guys (Kucherov, Panarin, used to be Kane) are clearly driving the play in a way that's normally reserved for a C, but from the wing.
It's not that MacKinnon is a great defensive player, but he does a credible job playing his position defensively.

Kucherov is one of the worst defensive players in the league, and is regularly cherrypicking in the NZ looking for space to make plays. Tampa will also employ a different forecheck at times where they pressure the puck carrier right at the blue line when they're exiting the zone. Kucherov is usually the one waiting closer to the goal line if there is a turnover to take advantage of a breakaway or 2 on 1 that his teammates create for him.
 

RussianGuyovich

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It's not that MacKinnon is a great defensive player, but he does a credible job playing his position defensively.

Kucherov is one of the worst defensive players in the league, and is regularly cherrypicking in the NZ looking for space to make plays. Tampa will also employ a different forecheck at times where they pressure the puck carrier right at the blue line when they're exiting the zone. Kucherov is usually the one waiting closer to the goal line if there is a turnover to take advantage of a breakaway or 2 on 1 that his teammates create for him.




kucherov just keeps getting better and making people madder. lmao.
 

Rschmitz

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It's not that MacKinnon is a great defensive player, but he does a credible job playing his position defensively.

Kucherov is one of the worst defensive players in the league, and is regularly cherrypicking in the NZ looking for space to make plays. Tampa will also employ a different forecheck at times where they pressure the puck carrier right at the blue line when they're exiting the zone. Kucherov is usually the one waiting closer to the goal line if there is a turnover to take advantage of a breakaway or 2 on 1 that his teammates create for him.

You literally described how every forward plays defense....unless you are trying to argue that Kucherov doesn't come back and defend when the other team has the puck which is BS.
 

Beyonder91

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It's not that MacKinnon is a great defensive player, but he does a credible job playing his position defensively.

Kucherov is one of the worst defensive players in the league, and is regularly cherrypicking in the NZ looking for space to make plays. Tampa will also employ a different forecheck at times where they pressure the puck carrier right at the blue line when they're exiting the zone. Kucherov is usually the one waiting closer to the goal line if there is a turnover to take advantage of a breakaway or 2 on 1 that his teammates create for him.
Did you ever consider that Kucherov is encouraged by his coach to make those reads?

This has nothing to do with defensive ability.

Man that third assist he was awarded was bogus lol
The NHL looks closely at all goals. He actually wasn't awarded an assist originally.
Nothing new, strange or "bogus" here.
 

Turin

Erik Karlsson is good
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Did you ever consider that Kucherov is encouraged by his coach to make those reads?

This has nothing to do with defensive ability.


The NHL looks closely at all goals. He actually wasn't awarded an assist originally.
Nothing new, strange or "bogus" here.
The NHL is never wrong
 

bambamcam4ever

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Did you ever consider that Kucherov is encouraged by his coach to make those reads?

This has nothing to do with defensive ability.


The NHL looks closely at all goals. He actually wasn't awarded an assist originally.
Nothing new or strange here.
I agree his coach wants him to do that on the forecheck, but that's also why separating a player from the system he's in is crucial to talent evaluation.

I don't think Cooper is telling him to cherrypick though.
 

Beyonder91

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The NHL is never wrong
Yep, I'm sure you looked at it much closer than they did :thumbu:

I agree his coach wants him to do that on the forecheck, but that's also why separating a player from the system he's in is crucial to talent evaluation.

I don't think Cooper is telling him to cherrypick though.

All I can say is he is very good at making those reads and it also causes the other team's defense to spread further away from supporting their forwards. I'm quite sure that Coop realizes this.
Also, the fact he is a winger allows him more leeway as opposed to a center.
 

RussianGuyovich

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that's also why separating a player from the system he's in is crucial to talent evaluation.
oh wow, the bodhisattva warned us against this. no single thing can exist independently of other things. this is because everything is dependent on the existence of, at the very minimum, one other thing. you are dangerously close to losing your path
 

daver

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All I can say is he is very good at making those reads and it also causes the other team's defense to spread further away from supporting their forwards. I'm quite sure that Coop realizes this.
Also, the fact he is a winger allows him more leeway as opposed to a center.

And we have come full circle on why wingers don't get bonus points for not being a C.
 

Turin

Erik Karlsson is good
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nor are you or Kucherov bashers
Since when am I a Kucherov basher? The assist was fraudulent. He didn't touch the puck nevermind possess it. The puck doesn’t change direction or speed at all.
 

Beyonder91

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Since when am I a Kucherov basher? The assist was fraudulent. He didn't touch the puck nevermind possess it. The puck doesn’t change direction or speed at all.
You should apply for the NHL back office. Clearly the people they have dedicated to looking at this stuff aren't as good as you.
 

Turin

Erik Karlsson is good
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You should apply for the NHL back office. Clearly the people they have dedicated to looking at this stuff aren't as good as you.
You’re basically one of those idiots who think you need to play NHL hockey to have an opinion on players huh? Have you ever heard of Appeal to the Authority? The NHL has gotten these things wrong many times.
 

Beyonder91

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You’re basically one of those idiots who think you need to play NHL hockey to have an opinion on players huh? Have you ever heard of Appeal to the Authority? The NHL has gotten these things wrong many times.

Basically

Official Site of the National Hockey League | NHL.com

Here is the link to reach out to the NHL. I'm sure they would love for you to educate them about the bogus and fraudulent assist.
 

Turin

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Bob and 200 others

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bossram

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Glad I'm not the only one :laugh:
I've got a lot of Hart wagers tho, lol. See below.
Well, I actually have wagers on all of them, at varying points in the season.

I got a veerrryyyy good price on Kucherov early, and would really like him to win because it would be a nice payout. He'll have to win the Art Ross at minimum to make it happen though.

I put a decent amount on Mackinnon once I realized the MSM narrative basically decided Mack was going to win in December.

And I put a little on McDavid recently, just to ensure I end up with a profit any way it goes.
 

WarriorofTime

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You literally described how every forward plays defense....unless you are trying to argue that Kucherov doesn't come back and defend when the other team has the puck which is BS.
fwiw, you're replying to a guy who has dismissed Kucherov's career with:

he was great at riding an excellent team though.
Some people don't want to be reasoned with on topics they feel strongly about.
 
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