Player Discussion Nick Suzuki Part 11

[Lafleurs Guy]

Sure, once you stop pretending that the roster context didn't impact his stat line lol

If it happened after CC went down? Sure. But it didn’t.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The difference in production is not as significant as you're trying to make it sound IMO.

He’s a 30 point player once Monahan goes down. After CC’s gone he paces for 62. That’s a big dropoff from the 94 pace he started at.

Slumps happen, that’s fine. And yes the roster fell apart. But let’s not pretend that there wasn’t a drop before CC went down. The dropoff started way earlier.

Doesn’t mean he won’t improve or he sucks. But people have to acknowledge the facts. I don’t know why they’re not willing to do that.

 

[Scriptor]

I'd be surprised if Caufield isn't with Nick most of the season. Not that MSL won't experiment at some point and move guys around. But even if Cole plays on a line with Dach at some point, I don't think it means Nick will suddenly have plugs on his line like was the case with when Habs had half their line-up on IR.

But also, Nick will play a lot with Cole on the PP even if they're not on the same line at 5-on-5.

Anderson had a 20+ goal season. He had good chemistry with Monahan. RHP looked good next to him. Newhook is an option.

Many options, for sure, Not all, unfortunately, that can benefit the development of Caufield, Suzuki, Dach, Slafkovsky, Newhook and RHP to the best degree at the same time.

We need to pick who we need to support more while we develop more prospects to solve the conundrum.

Personally, I think that supporting the continued development of Caufield, Suzuki, each and Slafkovsky is quintessential. All the better if Newhook is part of arriving at that, but he could still support the others' development indirectly by bolstering the top-9 in a 3rd line role if he doesn't pan out so well in the top-6?

I just don't want to be experimenting until Christmas and scrap the continued progress of Caufield, Suzuki, Dach and Slafkovsky in the process.

We already know that Caufield - Suzuki - Dach works wonders as we look for a replacement that will complement Caufield-Suzuki as well.

We also know that Monahan is a good mentor for Slafkovsky.

The easy solution would be:

Caufield - Suzuki - Dach
Slafkovsky - Monahan - Newhook

to start for the top-6, but understand a 10-15 game run with Suzuki - Dach as the one-two punch at C. For that, Caufield-Suzuki would likely be better off with Monahan as the other winger and Dach could C Slafkovsky and Newhook, or, barring that, if it doen't work, Slafkovsky and Anderson, or Newhook and Anderson.

Hopefully the line matches are formed early and work early. I want toes all of Caufield, Suzuki, Dach and Slafkovsky reach new heights this season, even if we are bound to miss the playoffs again.

 

[Scriptor]

He’s a 30 point player once Monahan goes down. After CC’s gone he paces for 62. That’s a big dropoff from the 94 pace he started at.

Slumps happen, that’s fine. And yes the roster fell apart. But let’s not pretend that there wasn’t a drop before CC went down. The dropoff started way earlier.

Doesn’t mean he won’t improve or he sucks. But people have to acknowledge the facts. I don’t know why they’re not willing to do that.

Again, it's natural that a dropoff would happen, even with Caufield still healthy, once Monahan was out of the lineup.

Monahan was the skill that lent support beyond Suzuki's line once Dach became Suzuki's RW.

Take Monahan out of the equation, what exactly was left behind the Caufield -Suzuki- Dach line?

Suzuki's responsibilities increase, he starts getting overplayed and he's now the main target for opposing Ds as the motor of his line.

Dvorak as your 2nd C? hard times, my friend, hard times...

I really don't get your point that Monahan going down wasn't as much of catalyst as Caufield or Monahan going down later.

To each his own, I guess.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Again, it's natural that a dropoff would happen, even with Caufield still healthy, once Monahan was out of the lineup.

Monahan was the skill that lent support beyond Suzuki's line once Dach became Suzuki's RW.

Take Monahan out of the equation, what exactly was left behind the Caufield -Suzuki- Dach line?

Suzuki's responsibilities increase, he starts getting overplayed and he's now the main target for opposing Ds as the motor of his line.

Dvorak as your 2nd C? hard times, my friend, hard times...

I really don't get your point that Monahan going down wasn't as much of catalyst as Caufield or Monahan going down later.

To each his own, I guess.

First, some people haven’t acknowledged the drop before CC going down at all. The guy I replied to called in an ‘unsupported narrative’ and that’s bs. It’s a year later and people still paint it as something that didn’t occur. Yes it did.

Now, why does it matter? It matters because the difference between good and great players is consistency. Yes, we can acknowledge that the injuries hurt his numbers later on. But the drop off happened earlier. And there’s no real excuse for that.

I like Suzuki. He’s a smart two way player. But I’m not convinced he’s the guy I’d want leading our offense. I hope he proves me wrong but I thought he’d have been better by now. He’s good in spurts but he needs to get to the next level or we need to find a real number one.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Habs EOTP top 25 under 25. I posted the Dach ranking in his thread … here’s Suzuki’s.

2023 Montreal Canadiens Top 25 Under 25: #1 Nick Suzuki

For those who have followed our 2023 Top 25 Under 25 series, it should come as no surprise that the captain of the Montreal Canadiens, Nick Suzuki, tops our list yet again. It is his fourth straight…

www.habseyesontheprize.com

 

[Scriptor]

First, some people haven’t acknowledged the drop at all. The guy I replied to called in an ‘unsupported narrative’ and that’s bs. It’s a year later and people still paint it as something that didn’t occur. Yes it did.

Now, why does it matter? It matters because the difference between good and great players is consistency. Yes, we can acknowledge that the injuries hurt his numbers later on. But the drop off happened earlier. And there’s no real excuse for that.

I like Suzuki. He’s a smart two way player. But I’m not convinced he’s the guy I’d want leading our offense. I hope he proves me wrong but I thought he’d have been better by now. He’s good in spurts but he needs to get to the next level or we need to find a real number one.

I look at the team surrounding Suzuki and I'm rather pleased by his performance so far, after four full years in the league.

He's improved consistently, from year to year, with more and more responsibilities, and I see no reason why he wouldn't continue to improve with a slightly healthier lineup and a little more experience to go around for the younger, talented players on this team.

Since, once again, no, Suzuki's no generationnal player to carry an entire team on his back (is that what would make you satisfied, because that's not realistic, IMO), just a little more talent consistently there, behind him in the lineup, on top of talent on his line for him to exploit will ensure he reaches at least the 70-point plateau this season, but he could also come close to a PPG production as soon as this season.

I've liked the way he, along with Caufield, stepped up their game in the playoffs as young, young men and believe that Suzuki is a gamer who'll raise the level of his play when the chips are down.

Would I want a 100-point C that can also shut down opponents' best players? Sure, but how many are there, really? Not McDavid, nor Matthews, nor...

I think we need to look at a tandem of Cs leading our team and, in this instance, I think we can go a long way with that being Suzuki and Dach, when our other young prospects, both up front and on D, have matured or have neared maturity.

Ladies and Gentlemen, realistically, with the contracts that will be handed out by then, look for a legitimate three-year window for Montreal starting in 2027-2028, not really before that. And, even then, the team will likely not be fully mature yet.

We'll have ridden ourselves of all the poisoned contracts left by Bergevin; Dvorak, Armia, Price and, even, Gallagher and Anderson -- 30.35M off the books, 19.85m if you consider that Price's contract had a one-way ticket to Robidas Island. We'll also be rid of Savard's 3.5m along the way, as well as Jake Allen's 3.85M.

Matheson will be an UFA as a 32-yr old and the performance, by then, of young pups such as Guhle, Hutson, Reinbacher, Mailloux and Engstrom/Harris/Xhekaj/Barron/Trudeau will have determined if Matheson has been traded (freeing up another 4.874M) before becoming an UFA, or if he has been offered an extension by Hughes.

Regardless of what happens, by the time we reach a certain level of maturity to contend, along with the risen Cap ceiling by 2027-2028 (in four more full seasons played), Hughes will have had plenty of cap space to retain his better youngsters and enough cap space left over to be weaponized in order to acquire any missing pieces needed to fuel our three-year window.

After this window, that begins to end with Suzuki's contract, we need to make some difficult decisions, or manage to convince our better players up for contract renewals to take a team discount for a continued run at the Cup.

I see Suzuki as part of that picture, only, I don't see it as Suzuki needing to lead our offense, all by himself. In facts don't believe in a top-heavy Cap situation with too much cap space going to too few players, regardless of how talented they are.

You say that Suzuki needs to take another step, with doubt, while everything about his production has been heading forward step by step, year by year, all on a team that lacked the talented depth that would have normally supported this.

After starting at RW on the 4th line in his rookie season, Suzuki averaged .58 PPG in 71 games, working his way up to the top-6 as a C along the way, producing .70 PPG as he accumulated 7 points in 10 games during his first ever NHL playoffs, all under bizarre and difficult conditions because of COVID.

The following year, in his sophmore season, Suzuki produced 41 points again, only in 15 less games (56), for a .73 PPG pace. In the playoffs, on the way to the SCF, he showed up to lead his team in points, with another .73 PPG production, notching 16 points in 22 games.

On a depleted team that finished dead last in the league during his third season, Suzuki still produced 61 points in 82 games for a .74 PPG pace. Dead last, no playoffs.

Last year, on an injury ridden team that was already lacking talented depth to support Suzuki's line lower in the lineup, he still progressed to 66 points in 82 games, all while playing over 20 minutes a night and needing to learn how to dose his energies not to be gassed beyond being productive, reaching the .80 PPG production for the first time in his career.

If you don't see continued and tangible progress -- .58 PPG (.70 in the playoffs), .73 PPG (.73PPG in the playoffs, team leader in points on the way to the SCF), .74 PPG and .80 PPG, all despite the context of skill evaporating from the lineup after the run to the SCF -- suggesting more to come, I don't know how you analyze Suzuki's development to date and are ready to throw in the towel, albeit hoping to be proven wrong?

I wouldn't want to be a boxer named Suzuki with you as my cut man in my corner.

I also don't understand why other posters would not be intent on supporting Suzuki's continued progress that, IMO, definitely has PPG upside with a more balanced, skilled and healthy lineup?

Now, imagine Suzuki as a PPG C in his prime (within two more years as a 26-yr-old) and a 24- year-old Dach also coming into his own with stats akin to (lets be conservative) Bergeron (65 points, on average, with a solid shutdown game)?

With a strong shutdown C in Beck for the third line, a superior D and solid wingers for the top-9 (always easier to accumulate wingers than Cs), how could this team make-up, relying on a Suzuki - Dach - Beck C-line for the top-9, not be at least as much of a contending team as BOS was with Bergeron and Krejci as Cs?

I'd argue that Montreal would be a harder team to face in the playoffs.

Why pine for something else before seeing where Suzuki's ceiling is situated after supporting his development? Where Dach's ceiling is? How well Beck's game translates to the NHL?

I'd be more than happy being able to accumulate all this talent under the league's Cap-driven confines, aligning three defensively sound Cs that can all put up points at the same time, because the odds of them all showing positive goal differentials against those they face would be good enough to make us contenders, especially come playoff time, where the game tightens up and the ability to score at even strength while shutting down your opponent's goal production is no luxury.

Keep in mind we're talking about a PPG, first line C, a 65-point 2nd line C, at a minimum, and a 40-50 point 3rd line, shutdown C.

It's not a lineup with a Draisaitl, McDavid, Crosby, Malkin, Matthews, etc., but it's also not an offense lead by Danault on a first line as the high point.

I think things are looking up for the Habs and that having Suzuki -- along with Dach -- as a one-two punch at C, whomever comes out on top, is a strong enough foundation to leave our mark in the playoffs once the rest of the team is filled out with complementary talent.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I look at the team surrounding Suzuki and I'm rather pleased by his performance so far, after four full years in the league.

He's improved consistently, from year to year, with more and more responsibilities, and I see no reason why he wouldn't continue to improve with a slightly healthier lineup and a little more experience to go around for the younger, talented players on this team.

Since, once again, no, Suzuki's no generationnal player to carry an entire team on his back (is that what would make you satisfied, because that's not realistic, IMO), just a little more talent consistently there, behind him in the lineup, on top of talent on his line for him to exploit will ensure he reaches at least the 70-point plateau this season, but he could also come close to a PPG production as soon as this season.

I've liked the way he, along with Caufield, stepped up their game in the playoffs as young, young men and believe that Suzuki is a gamer who'll raise the level of his play when the chips are down.

Would I want a 100-point C that can also shut down opponents' best players? Sure, but how many are there, really? Not McDavid, nor Matthews, nor...

I think we need to look at a tandem of Cs leading our team and, in this instance, I think we can go a long way with that being Suzuki and Dach, when our other young prospects, both up front and on D, have matured or have neared maturity.

Ladies and Gentlemen, realistically, with the contracts that will be handed out by then, look for a legitimate three-year window for Montreal starting in 2027-2028, not really before that. And, even then, the team will likely not be fully mature yet.

We'll have ridden ourselves of all the poisoned contracts left by Bergevin; Dvorak, Armia, Price and, even, Gallagher and Anderson -- 30.35M off the books, 19.85m if you consider that Price's contract had a one-way ticket to Robidas Island. We'll also be rid of Savard's 3.5m along the way, as well as Jake Allen's 3.85M.

Matheson will be an UFA as a 32-yr old and the performance, by then, of young pups such as Guhle, Hutson, Reinbacher, Mailloux and Engstrom/Harris/Xhekaj/Barron/Trudeau will have determined if Matheson has been traded (freeing up another 4.874M) before becoming an UFA, or if he has been offered an extension by Hughes.

Regardless of what happens, by the time we reach a certain level of maturity to contend, along with the risen Cap ceiling by 2027-2028 (in four more full seasons played), Hughes will have had plenty of cap space to retain his better youngsters and enough cap space left over to be weaponized in order to acquire any missing pieces needed to fuel our three-year window.

After this window, that begins to end with Suzuki's contract, we need to make some difficult decisions, or manage to convince our better players up for contract renewals to take a team discount for a continued run at the Cup.

I see Suzuki as part of that picture, only, I don't see it as Suzuki needing to lead our offense, all by himself. In facts don't believe in a top-heavy Cap situation with too much cap space going to too few players, regardless of how talented they are.

You say that Suzuki needs to take another step, with doubt, while everything about his production has been heading forward step by step, year by year, all on a team that lacked the talented depth that would have normally supported this.

After starting at RW on the 4th line in his rookie season, Suzuki averaged .58 PPG in 71 games, working his way up to the top-6 as a C along the way, producing .70 PPG as he accumulated 7 points in 10 games during his first ever NHL playoffs, all under bizarre and difficult conditions because of COVID.

The following year, in his sophmore season, Suzuki produced 41 points again, only in 15 less games (56), for a .73 PPG pace. In the playoffs, on the way to the SCF, he showed up to lead his team in points, with another .73 PPG production, notching 16 points in 22 games.

On a depleted team that finished dead last in the league during his third season, Suzuki still produced 61 points in 82 games for a .74 PPG pace. Dead last, no playoffs.

Last year, on an injury ridden team that was already lacking talented depth to support Suzuki's line lower in the lineup, he still progressed to 66 points in 82 games, all while playing over 20 minutes a night and needing to learn how to dose his energies not to be gassed beyond being productive, reaching the .80 PPG production for the first time in his career.

If you don't see continued and tangible progress -- .58 PPG (.70 in the playoffs), .73 PPG (.73PPG in the playoffs, team leader in points on the way to the SCF), .74 PPG and .80 PPG, all despite the context of skill evaporating from the lineup after the run to the SCF -- suggesting more to come, I don't know how you analyze Suzuki's development to date and are ready to throw in the towel, albeit hoping to be proven wrong?

I wouldn't want to be a boxer named Suzuki with you as my cut man in my corner.

I also don't understand why other posters would not be intent on supporting Suzuki's continued progress that, IMO, definitely has PPG upside with a more balanced, skilled and healthy lineup?

Now, imagine Suzuki as a PPG C in his prime (within two more years as a 26-yr-old) and a 24- year-old Dach also coming into his own with stats akin to (lets be conservative) Bergeron (65 points, on average, with a solid shutdown game)?

With a strong shutdown C in Beck for the third line, a superior D and solid wingers for the top-9 (always easier to accumulate wingers than Cs), how could this team make-up, relying on a Suzuki - Dach - Beck C-line for the top-9, not be at least as much of a contending team as BOS was with Bergeron and Krejci as Cs?

I'd argue that Montreal would be a harder team to face in the playoffs.

Why pine for something else before seeing where Suzuki's ceiling is situated after supporting his development? Where Dach's ceiling is? How well Beck's game translates to the NHL?

I'd be more than happy being able to accumulate all this talent under the league's Cap-driven confines, aligning three defensively sound Cs that can all put up points at the same time, because the odds of them all showing positive goal differentials against those they face would be good enough to make us contenders, especially come playoff time, where the game tightens up and the ability to score at even strength while shutting down your opponent's goal production is no luxury.

Keep in mind we're talking about a PPG, first line C, a 65-point 2nd line C, at a minimum, and a 40-50 point 3rd line, shutdown C.

It's not a lineup with a Draisaitl, McDavid, Crosby, Malkin, Matthews, etc., but it's also not an offense lead by Danault on a first line as the high point.

I think things are looking up for the Habs and that having Suzuki -- along with Dach -- as a one-two punch at C, whomever comes out on top, is a strong enough foundation to leave our mark in the playoffs once the rest of the team is filled out with complementary talent.

Bottom line is that he hasn’t proven he’s a true number one yet. If he’s going to do it, the time is now. No excuses.

If he doesn’t, that’s okay. We just need to realize that we need a true first liner. The idea that he and Dach can alternate is a nice one - and might work. But I’d feel a lot better with a real number one leading the way, esp since we don’t have the advantage of having Price anymore.

 

[Scriptor]

Bottom line is that he hasn’t proven he’s a true number one yet. If he’s going to do it, the time is now. No excuses.

If he doesn’t, that’s okay. We just need to realize that we need a true first liner. The idea that he and Dach can alternate is a nice one - and might work. But I’d feel a lot better with a real number one leading the way, esp since we don’t have the advantage of having Price anymore.

Unlike you, I don't feel it is do or die for Suzuki this season at all.

With all due respect, I think that this stance is farcical, given that the rest of the young present and future core of this team is still a few years behind Suzuki's development -- and he is only 24!

When the supporting cast up front - Caufield, Dach, Newhook, Slafkovsky -- have all gained a little experience, and, hopefully, another impactful top-6 winger has emerged, to compensate for the likely loss of Monahan, Suzuki will have consistent, talented depth around and behind him to express himself better.

What I'm looking forward to seeing, this season, is MSL prioritizing the continued progression of the dynamic duo that represent the two highest paid players on the team, Caufield and Suzuki.

I understand the fan base's impatience with developing Dach at C, but I'd personally play him at RW while we still have a healthy Monahan on the roster to camp the 2nd line C role.

I have no doubt that all three of Caufield, Suzuki and Dach are legitimate 1st liners and consider that playing them that role can only benefit their development in the short-term, even if Dach needs to wait before playing C full-time.

Monahan, IMO, is the ideal candidate to mentor Slafkovsky, either with Newhook as a shooter on his offside, or with Anderson as the RW to form a heavy, physical, but still talented line.

However MSL does it (Dach at C or not) he can't hinder Caufield and Suzuki's continued development by establishing a revolving door of wingers on the right side of the Suzuki line.

The best optional face value, is putting Monahan on the Suzuki line to replace Dach, but there can be short term experiments to start the season off, possibly Newhook,or someone else that stands out at camp and shows chemistry with Caufield and Suzuki?

If Suzuki progresses from 61 to 66 to 70+ points this season's will be satisfied, considering that the young forwards all got another season of experience under their belts and that other Ds with huge transitional upside will be on the cusp of joining the team the following year; Reinbacher, Mailloux, Hutson?

It's after this season that my expectations would be to see Suzuki produce at a PPG ornery PPG pace (80 points), with increasing support from a more experienced supporting staff providing more secondary scoring and an increasingly more transformative D-Corps that will, inevitably, help all the forwards produce better numbers.

Do or die to determine if Suzuki's the type of #1 C this team needs starts the year after this upcoming season, IMO.

Perhaps I see it more about the overall team context when it comes to the development of one of the league's youngest teams and I'm just a little more patient (one year) than you in what's still,TBH, a rebuilding scenario with a lot of pieces still a few years away from having the impact they will on this team?

You want Suzuki proving all that he can be this upcoming season and I don't see the team ready to be realistically in the talk as serious contenders for another five years (year 6 of Suzuki's current contract). If it takes two years for Suzuki to establish himself as a genuine PPG C, it just follows that timeline, IMO. He'll a proven, impactful #1C waiting for the rest of the lineup to gradually catch up culminating into a contending roster only three years later.

I'm not saying they won't have made the playoffs by then, but they won't seriously aspire to win the Cup until then, IMO.

In just a few years from now

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Unlike you, I don't feel it is do or die for Suzuki this season at all.

With all due respect, I think that this stance is farcical, given that the rest of the young present and future core of this team is still a few years behind Suzuki's development -- and he is only 24!

When the supporting cast up front - Caufield, Dach, Newhook, Slafkovsky -- have all gained a little experience, and, hopefully, another impactful top-6 winger has emerged, to compensate for the likely loss of Monahan, Suzuki will have consistent, talented depth around and behind him to express himself better.

What I'm looking forward to seeing, this season, is MSL prioritizing the continued progression of the dynamic duo that represent the two highest paid players on the team, Caufield and Suzuki.

I understand the fan base's impatience with developing Dach at C, but I'd personally play him at RW while we still have a healthy Monahan on the roster to camp the 2nd line C role.

I have no doubt that all three of Caufield, Suzuki and Dach are legitimate 1st liners and consider that playing them that role can only benefit their development in the short-term, even if Dach needs to wait before playing C full-time.

Monahan, IMO, is the ideal candidate to mentor Slafkovsky, either with Newhook as a shooter on his offside, or with Anderson as the RW to form a heavy, physical, but still talented line.

However MSL does it (Dach at C or not) he can't hinder Caufield and Suzuki's continued development by establishing a revolving door of wingers on the right side of the Suzuki line.

The best optional face value, is putting Monahan on the Suzuki line to replace Dach, but there can be short term experiments to start the season off, possibly Newhook,or someone else that stands out at camp and shows chemistry with Caufield and Suzuki?

If Suzuki progresses from 61 to 66 to 70+ points this season's will be satisfied, considering that the young forwards all got another season of experience under their belts and that other Ds with huge transitional upside will be on the cusp of joining the team the following year; Reinbacher, Mailloux, Hutson?

It's after this season that my expectations would be to see Suzuki produce at a PPG ornery PPG pace (80 points), with increasing support from a more experienced supporting staff providing more secondary scoring and an increasingly more transformative D-Corps that will, inevitably, help all the forwards produce better numbers.

Do or die to determine if Suzuki's the type of #1 C this team needs starts the year after this upcoming season, IMO.

Perhaps I see it more about the overall team context when it comes to the development of one of the league's youngest teams and I'm just a little more patient (one year) than you in what's still,TBH, a rebuilding scenario with a lot of pieces still a few years away from having the impact they will on this team?

You want Suzuki proving all that he can be this upcoming season and I don't see the team ready to be realistically in the talk as serious contenders for another five years (year 6 of Suzuki's current contract). If it takes two years for Suzuki to establish himself as a genuine PPG C, it just follows that timeline, IMO. He'll a proven, impactful #1C waiting for the rest of the lineup to gradually catch up culminating into a contending roster only three years later.

I'm not saying they won't have made the playoffs by then, but they won't seriously aspire to win the Cup until then, IMO.

In just a few years from now

I think calling it 'do or die' is overly dramatic. I just think we need to know what our strengths and weaknesses are. Suzuki's in his mid 20s now, well into his prime. If he's not a number one center this season... I think we need to accept that it's probably as good as he'll be and plan accordingly. He's 24 years old not 21.

Hopefully Dach improves. There's an outside shot that he might be a number one. Or maybe we have two guys who are solid and rotate...

End of the day though, we will be facing off against a bunch of teams with big number one centers. If we just punt on that advantage it's going to be a lot tougher to win. Some teams have two legit number ones... and we no longer have a goalie who can offset it.

Bottom line is if you want a cup, you have to build a better team than your competitors. If Suzuki is a bottom tier number one/upper tier two, I'd say we'd better plan accordingly.

People keep saying he's going to be a number one. Okay... now's the time to prove it.

 

[SlafySZN]

I think calling it 'do or die' is overly dramatic. I just think we need to know what our strengths and weaknesses are. Suzuki's in his mid 20s now, well into his prime. If he's not a number one center this season... I think we need to accept that it's probably as good as he'll be and plan accordingly. He's 24 years old not 21.

Hopefully Dach improves. There's an outside shot that he might be a number one. Or maybe we have two guys who are solid and rotate...

End of the day though, we will be facing off against a bunch of teams with big number one centers. If we just punt on that advantage it's going to be a lot tougher to win. Some teams have two legit number ones... and we no longer have a goalie who can offset it.

Bottom line is if you want a cup, you have to build a better team than your competitors. If Suzuki is a bottom tier number one/upper tier two, I'd say we'd better plan accordingly.

People keep saying he's going to be a number one. Okay... now's the time to prove it.

I don’t see it.

And i like Suzuki (see my username )

 

[Scriptor]

I think calling it 'do or die' is overly dramatic. I just think we need to know what our strengths and weaknesses are. Suzuki's in his mid 20s now, well into his prime. If he's not a number one center this season... I think we need to accept that it's probably as good as he'll be and plan accordingly. He's 24 years old not 21.

Hopefully Dach improves. There's an outside shot that he might be a number one. Or maybe we have two guys who are solid and rotate...

End of the day though, we will be facing off against a bunch of teams with big number one centers. If we just punt on that advantage it's going to be a lot tougher to win. Some teams have two legit number ones... and we no longer have a goalie who can offset it.

Bottom line is if you want a cup, you have to build a better team than your competitors. If Suzuki is a bottom tier number one/upper tier two, I'd say we'd better plan accordingly.

People keep saying he's going to be a number one. Okay... now's the time to prove it.

I understand your concern. I agree that Suzuki has not proven it yet, but I'm encouraged that he keeps getting better.

Until he proves it, there's no security surrounding his future as a genuine #1 C on a contender, any way you build that contender.

I just don't buy, however, the whole mentality that a 24-yr-old is well into his prime. that only applies to a small portion of NHLers, unlike what the 'It's a young man's league now' crowd tries to claim.

If you're still progressing, you haven't reached your prime yet, IMO.

Suzuki is still progressing, so he hasn't reached his prime yet.

I don't want to make this about semantics at all Lafleurs Guy, and I share your uncertainty, but you sound like you are spinning it to write him off.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don’t see it.

And i like Suzuki (see my username )

I think his points will be highly dependent on if he's paired with CC. I think if Dach winds up with CC, you'll see him outpoint Suzuki. And honestly, maybe that's not a bad thing.

Maybe Dach is the center we've been looking for. We'll have to see on this one. Suzuki's got talent and he can score. It'd be awesome if he could anchor one line while CC helps Dach on the other.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I understand your concern. I agree that Suzuki has not proven it yet, but I'm encouraged that he keeps getting better.

Until he proves it, there's no security surrounding his future as a genuine #1 C on a contender, any way you build that contender.

I just don't buy, however, the whole mentality that a 24-yr-old is well into his prime. that only applies to a small portion of NHLers, unlike what the 'It's a young man's league now' crowd tries to claim.

If you're still progressing, you haven't reached your prime yet, IMO.

Suzuki is still progressing, so he hasn't reached his prime yet.

I don't want to make this about semantics at all Lafleurs Guy, and I share your uncertainty, but you sound like you are spinning it to write him off.

For players who've been in the league a long time, you've usually shown what you can do by 23. Suzuki's been with us for years now. He's a veteran player. It's not like he just broke into the league...

I'm not saying it's impossible that he could 'break out' later. But we've got to be realistic. This is the year for him. If he plays like he did at the beginning of last year... awesome. We know he's talented, he just needs to be consistent.

But I'm not convinced he's that guy. Can he anchor a line on his own? Or will he need CC to be able to put up points? We'll see I guess.

 

[Miller Time]

If it happened after CC went down? Sure. But it didn’t.

Might want to double check that...

Suzuki had 2 bad stretches with 0pts/5games, 2nd of which was right near the end of the year.
The other over the holidays... Where CC had 1pt in 6 (so they both had a rough patch).


Crosby had 3x 10 game stretches last year where he put up 5 or 6 pts... 30 games at a .56 ppg pace.

Even established elite players have lulls over the course of a full season. You seem to assume that Caufield would've been immune to this has he actually played a full season ... What is more likely is that he too would've had another bad stretch, or two, like the one he (& Suzuki) had over the holidays.

Suzuki played a full 82. Finished the year with a career best pt total & ppg pace.

He did that on a team where no other player topped 40pts...

Where the 2nd leading scorer (Dach) was ~30pts behind him...

& where he almost surpassed the combined point production of the top 3 dmen on the team ( 34, 20 & 18... 72pts to his 66).

It takes a pretty massive leap to completely ignore the team context impacting Suzuki's point line total.

Of course Caufield being out hurt his production, as did Monahan's absence, as did Matheson', Dach's, Guhle's, and even Hoff/Drouin/Dvorak & Anderson.

The fixation on equating it solely to Caufield is odd given the reality of how the roster fluctuated throughout the year.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Might want to double check that...

Suzuki had 2 bad stretches with 0pts/5games, 2nd of which was right near the end of the year.
The other over the holidays... Where CC had 1pt in 6 (so they both had a rough patch).


Crosby had 3x 10 game stretches last year where he put up 5 or 6 pts... 30 games at a .56 ppg pace.

Even established elite players have lulls over the course of a full season. You seem to assume that Caufield would've been immune to this has he actually played a full season ... What is more likely is that he too would've had another bad stretch, or two, like the one he (& Suzuki) had over the holidays.

Suzuki played a full 82. Finished the year with a career best pt total & ppg pace.

He did that on a team where no other player topped 40pts...

Where the 2nd leading scorer (Dach) was ~30pts behind him...

& where he almost surpassed the combined point production of the top 3 dmen on the team ( 34, 20 & 18... 72pts to his 66).

It takes a pretty massive leap to completely ignore the team context impacting Suzuki's point line total.

Of course Caufield being out hurt his production, as did Monahan's absence, as did Matheson', Dach's, Guhle's, and even Hoff/Drouin/Dvorak & Anderson.

The fixation on equating it solely to Caufield is odd given the reality of how the roster fluctuated throughout the year.

I posted the stats for you bud. It's there clear as day for you.

 

[Belial]

I posted the stats for you bud. It's there clear as day for you.

I have no idea why you're so hellbent to prove to everyone that Suzuki had a slump during the season.

We saw it, YES, he had a slump at one point in the season.

No one actually denied the fact that he had a couple of tough weeks production-wise.

 

[Scriptor]

For players who've been in the league a long time, you've usually shown what you can do by 23. Suzuki's been with us for years now. He's a veteran player. It's not like he just broke into the league...

I'm not saying it's impossible that he could 'break out' later. But we've got to be realistic. This is the year for him. If he plays like he did at the beginning of last year... awesome. We know he's talented, he just needs to be consistent.

But I'm not convinced he's that guy. Can he anchor a line on his own? Or will he need CC to be able to put up points? We'll see I guess.

I don't think it's a case of CC making Suzuk as you are implying, but, of course it's part of the point production. If you don't have talented wingers who can complement your creativity, you won't produce all by yourself.

If you read what I wrote, we are in a rebuild and other prospects are behind Suzuki, Caufield and, even, Dach, in their development and Suzuki, Caufield and Dach, themselves, aren't at the same point in their development.

It works both in terms of playing on a line with Suzuki and supporting Suzuki's line by adding talented depth behind his line in the lineup.

Until the roster is set with more experience and talent, we won't have seen the best of Suzuki.

But you talk of Suzuki has though he has plateaued when you talk about seeing what the player is all about by the time they are 23.

That's just not the case for Suzuki. If he doesn't progress again this year and plateaus with the same line mates and a better, healthier lineup behind hims support, it's a different story, but, if he progresses from .80 PPG to .90 PPG at over 70 points, I don't write him off at all when it comes to his potential of becoming an 80+ point producer in the near future, with a team that is still maturing, overall.

I also don't see the point of removing Caufield from Suzuki's line as a leitmotiv because that amounts to throwing in the towel when it comes to any remaining runway for Suzuki.

It's a defeatist, self-fulfilling approach seemingly aimed to simply prove a point that Suzuki just isn't that C we need for the first line.

Suzuki will make players around him better, but, honestly, so will Dach, in his own way. That doesn't mean we should say,"Screw Suzuki, let him prove he can turn Pezzetta into a 30-goal scorer," either.

I'd personally like to see Caufield stay with Suzuki (adding Monahan to the other wing win that line) -- at least to start the season off -- and see what can become a big-bodied line of Slafkovsky - Dach - Anderson, but I imagine that, early onsite will also be about playing Newhook on a second lines we'd likely either see Newhook - Dach - Anderson instead, or Slafkovsky - Dach - Newhook.

Start with that and let the play determine what follows.

Again, we're short another sniper and I don't think we have one in the system that comes close to Caufield.

Suzuki and Dach, to assess their ultimate worth at C, both deserve a Caufield. At some point, if Hughes can't groom one, he'll need to reach outside his team's system to land another.

Maybe he thinks that's what he's done with Newhook, but, outside of one season in the lowly BCHL, her's given no evidence of becoming a sniper at the NHL level.

 

[Scriptor]

I have no idea why you're so hellbent to prove to everyone that Suzuki had a slump during the season.

We saw it, YES, he had a slump at one point in the season.

No one actually denied the fact that he had a couple of tough weeks production-wise.

Suzuki got overused by MSL, playing in every game situation, including the PK. That may have had something to do with a lull in his production. At some point, playing 20+ minutes regularly and relied on for everything, he just looked gassed out there.

However, it was a learning experience for Suzuki and he still produced at .80 PPG, progressing from the season before's .74 PPG.

The assets has consistently progressed and keeps getting better.

Fine, let's write him off, then...

This is becoming an empty argument and makes the season starting a helluva happy occasion to come

 

[Belial]

Suzuki got overused by MSL, playing in every game situation, including the PK. That may have had something to do with a lull in his production. At some point, playing 20+ minutes regularly and relied on for everything, he just looked gassed out there.

However, it was a learning experience for Suzuki and he still produced at .80 PPG, progressing from the season before's .74 PPG.

The assets has consistently progressed and keeps getting better.

Fine, let's write him off, then...

This is becoming an empty argument and makes the season starting a helluva happy occasion to come

For some reason, Suzuki is clearly not @Lafleurs Guy's favorite player and he thinks Cole Caufield is much better therefore all this discussion how Nick started slumping while Cole was not yet injured and so on...

It was pretty evident also when he suggested that Cole should make more money before Cole signed his extension.

And now this idea that we should move Cole with Dach...

There's a way to appreciate both players IMO.

There's a possibility that Cole becomes the better player down the road but I don't get the constant attempt to put Suzuki down even if done pretty subtle.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

The difference in production is not as significant as you're trying to make it sound IMO.

It’s definitely not and it had nothing to do with CC since the numbers changed while CC was still
In the lineup. The argument will just continue to shift until it’s not the same argument anymore as long as whatever the new argument is supports LG’s claim lol.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I have no idea why you're so hellbent to prove to everyone that Suzuki had a slump during the season.

Because many, including yourself have denied it happened before CC went down. It’s clearly not the case. People have said the reason he slumped was that he had nobody to play with. Clearly not the case.

Acknowledge it and move on.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don't think it's a case of CC making Suzuk as you are implying, but, of course it's part of the point production. If you don't have talented wingers who can complement your creativity, you won't produce all by yourself.

If you read what I wrote, we are in a rebuild and other prospects are behind Suzuki, Caufield and, even, Dach, in their development and Suzuki, Caufield and Dach, themselves, aren't at the same point in their development.

It works both in terms of playing on a line with Suzuki and supporting Suzuki's line by adding talented depth behind his line in the lineup.

Until the roster is set with more experience and talent, we won't have seen the best of Suzuki.

But you talk of Suzuki has though he has plateaued when you talk about seeing what the player is all about by the time they are 23.

That's just not the case for Suzuki. If he doesn't progress again this year and plateaus with the same line mates and a better, healthier lineup behind hims support, it's a different story, but, if he progresses from .80 PPG to .90 PPG at over 70 points, I don't write him off at all when it comes to his potential of becoming an 80+ point producer in the near future, with a team that is still maturing, overall.

I also don't see the point of removing Caufield from Suzuki's line as a leitmotiv because that amounts to throwing in the towel when it comes to any remaining runway for Suzuki.

It's a defeatist, self-fulfilling approach seemingly aimed to simply prove a point that Suzuki just isn't that C we need for the first line.

Suzuki will make players around him better, but, honestly, so will Dach, in his own way. That doesn't mean we should say,"Screw Suzuki, let him prove he can turn Pezzetta into a 30-goal scorer," either.

I'd personally like to see Caufield stay with Suzuki (adding Monahan to the other wing win that line) -- at least to start the season off -- and see what can become a big-bodied line of Slafkovsky - Dach - Anderson, but I imagine that, early onsite will also be about playing Newhook on a second lines we'd likely either see Newhook - Dach - Anderson instead, or Slafkovsky - Dach - Newhook.

Start with that and let the play determine what follows.

Again, we're short another sniper and I don't think we have one in the system that comes close to Caufield.

Suzuki and Dach, to assess their ultimate worth at C, both deserve a Caufield. At some point, if Hughes can't groom one, he'll need to reach outside his team's system to land another.

Maybe he thinks that's what he's done with Newhook, but, outside of one season in the lowly BCHL, her's given no evidence of becoming a sniper at the NHL level.

I don’t think CC ‘makes’ Suzuki. But I do think that CC would be the difference between Nick being a 60 point player vs having a shot at 70 plus.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

For some reason, Suzuki is clearly not @Lafleurs Guy's favorite player and he thinks Cole Caufield is much better therefore all this discussion how Nick started slumping while Cole was not yet injured and so on..

It’s not that I don’t like Suzuki, I do. Great trade. Love the guy. Smart, two way player and the right choice for captain. But I think people are being unrealistic about how good he actually is. He’s shown greatness in flashes but hasn’t shown he’s a legit first liner that we can hang outr hat on. That doesn’t mean I think he sucks, it just means we should acknowledge that we might still need to address number one center as a need.

As for CC being ‘better’, I think he’s a different kind of player. CC is more one dimensional. But the one dimension he excels in happens to be the most important thing a player can do - score goals.

I think CC is going to score regardless of who his Center is and will enhance that center’s numbers. Personally I’d like to see him played with both Dach and Suzuki. See what works. Experiment…

The team’s success is more important than any one player. If Suzuki becomes a legit first liner, GREAT! If we have someone who’s better ahead of him our odds at winning go way up.

I don’t care who our first line center is as long as we have one.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It’s definitely not and it had nothing to do with CC since the numbers changed while CC was still
In the lineup. The argument will just continue to shift until it’s not the same argument anymore as long as whatever the new argument is supports LG’s claim lol.

You said the numbers don’t support my argument. They clearly do.

Not surprisingly, you don’t acknowledge it.

No worries, you keep doing you.