Player Discussion Nick Suzuki Part 11

[Kobe Armstrong]

Ideally he becomes our 3rd best forward with Caufield and whoever we draft in 2023 or Slaf/Dach becoming more valuable than him, but I still like him as captain because of his Iron Man streak and how he always gets back up from a hit, he will be a great playoff warrior

 

[KevSkillz4]

Ideally he becomes our 3rd best forward with Caufield and whoever we draft in 2023 or Slaf/Dach becoming more valuable than him, but I still like him as captain because of his Iron Man streak and how he always gets back up from a hit, he will be a great playoff warrior

If Suzuki is the 3rd best forward, we are in very good hands. I think that Kirby Dach have more potential than him. So I see:

1 - Caufield.
2 - Dach.
3 - Suzuki.

Just them, that's going to make a really good forward group. Habs need to build around them and Slafkosky + maybe a top offensive prospect with that high pick... that's a great start.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Ideally he becomes our 3rd best forward with Caufield and whoever we draft in 2023 or Slaf/Dach becoming more valuable than him, but I still like him as captain because of his Iron Man streak and how he always gets back up from a hit, he will be a great playoff warrior

I think he’s a great choice for captain. Very smart player with the right temperament.

 

[Rapala]

The question is: how good is he?

Is he good enough to lead a team to a cup as its best player? I’d say no.

I had hoped he’d prove himself to be a legit number one this year. That didn’t happen. Doesn’t mean it can’t, but I see him more as a Koivu type talent rather than a true number one.

He’s still young in his career. Next year might be the year he ‘arrives’ and I hope that’s the case.

True. That is the question and I really don't know how we can be expected to use this dog shit of a season as a guage of Suzuki's talents. Of note was the run he went on after the break we all know how over used and exposed he was most evenings. (read left out to dry) The plus minus total is also indicative ending at only -3 more than Caufield despite playing more than half the season with others. The other thing that impressed me is how much stronger he looked at the end of the season compared to that December/January stretch he went through. I fail to see how this player can't do far better with a much deeper team and the heavy lifting spread out as it should be.

 

[beowulf]

If Suzuki is the 3rd best forward, we are in very good hands. I think that Kirby Dach have more potential than him. So I see:

1 - Caufield.
2 - Dach.
3 - Suzuki.

Just them, that's going to make a really good forward group. Habs need to build around them and Slafkosky + maybe a top offensive prospect with that high pick... that's a great start.

More potential maybe but Suzuki has actually been reaching his potential and continues to improve year after year while Dach has not. He finally showed some of his potential this year but is not even close to Suzuki yet.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Best Center in decades? Is that saying much? It speaks more to the incompetence of management than anything else.

Koivu is probably an equivalent and he was a poor man’s first line center. Good but not great player.

Again, glad he’s with us. Smart, good two way play. But we’re going to need more if we want to win something.

73rd in scoring and 32nd in centers. That’s not number one production.

Give him an actual team. With a pp top 15 and real wingers and hes ppg

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Give him an actual team. With a pp top 15 and real wingers and hes ppg

I don’t buy this. He had Caufield who was producing. Nick went ice cold… CC kept scoring.

I don’t disagree that he was on a poor team but he still has to produce better than he did to be considered a number one. He played all 82 games and didn’t crack the top 70 in scoring.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

True. That is the question and I really don't know how we can be expected to use this dog shit of a season as a guage of Suzuki's talents. Of note was the run he went on after the break we all know how over used and exposed he was most evenings. (read left out to dry) The plus minus total is also indicative ending at only -3 more than Caufield despite playing more than half the season with others. The other thing that impressed me is how much stronger he looked at the end of the season compared to that December/January stretch he went through. I fail to see how this player can't do far better with a much deeper team and the heavy lifting spread out as it should be.

I’m sure he can do better with more support. It was a tough assignment. But he’s still unproven in terms of being a 1st line center.

A real first line player produces no matter how bad the club is. They won’t drag a bad team to a cup but they will continue to produce. We didn’t see that from Nick this year. I was hoping for a lot more from him.

 

[Rapala]

I’m sure he can do better with more support. It was a tough assignment. But he’s still unproven in terms of being a 1st line center.

A real first line player produces no matter how bad the club is. They won’t drag a bad team to a cup but they will continue to produce. We didn’t see that from Nick this year. I was hoping for a lot more from him.

This team is unproven as a team. Once we are a team we can then assess who is a number one at anything. I'm actually in disbelief that you would use superstar as a description for Cole Caufield and use a hot scoring streak over a ten game stretch as a reason to claim he is superior to Nick Suzuki. I also think it's ridiculous to claim Suzuki is not a number one center while he is still in progression and hasn't hit his apex. Rose colored in one eye and grey tinted in the other.

 

[Colezuki]

More potential maybe but Suzuki has actually been reaching his potential and continues to improve year after year while Dach has not. He finally showed some of his potential this year but is not even close to Suzuki yet.

Not that I disagree with you in theory bird in the hand and all that but it's a false equivalency, because your comparing suzuki and Dach as though there similar but this year for Dach was the equivalent of Suzuki's second year in the league.

Dach age 21-22 58gp 14g 24a 38p
Suzuki age 21-22 54gp 15g 25a 41p

Not exactly a world of difference between the two at the same age

 

[Rapala]

Not that I disagree with you in theory bird in the hand and all that but it's a false equivalency, because your comparing suzuki and Dach as though there similar but this year for Dach was the equivalent of Suzuki's second year in the league.

Dach age 21-22 58gp 14g 24a 38p
Suzuki age 21-22 54gp 15g 25a 41p

Not exactly a world of difference between the two at the same age

Dach has the potential to displace Suzuki in terms of sheer production but he'll have to show far more endurance than he has thus far in his career.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

This team is unproven as a team. Once we are a team we can then assess who is a number one at anything.

That’s not how it works. It’s not how it’s ever worked. From Yzerman to Mackinnon, those players rack up points on bad clubs. And they do it in their early 20s.

I'm actually in disbelief that you would use superstar as a description for Cole Caufield and use a hot scoring streak over a ten game stretch as a reason to claim he is superior to Nick Suzuki.

I didn’t say he was a superstar. I said I think he’ll be one. And he’s put up superstar type production already. On the same team as Suzuki.

And no it’s not just based on those 80 games. He’s already got an insane pedegree. He’s simply been delivering on it. He’s providing top line production on a bad team at 21 years old.

I also think it's ridiculous to claim Suzuki is not a number one center while he is still in progression and hasn't hit his apex. Rose colored in one eye and grey tinted in the other.

He’s not a number one yet. He’s 23. A lot of players have their peak season around that age. He played 82 games and was 72nd in points. So, no… he’s not proven as a first line player.

It doesn’t mean he can’t be. I’m simply skeptical that he will be. I think he’s another borderline 1st liner who’s better suited to the 2nd. Koivu is a good example of that kind of player.

 

[Rapala]

That’s not how it works. It’s not how it’s ever worked. From Yzerman to Mackinnon, those players rack up points on bad clubs. And they do it in their early 20s.

I didn’t say he was a superstar. I said I think he’ll be one. And he’s put up superstar type production already. On the same team as Suzuki.

And no it’s not just based on those 80 games. He’s already got an insane pedegree. He’s simply been delivering on it. He’s providing top line production on a bad team at 21 years old.

He’s not a number one yet. He’s 23. A lot of players have their peak season around that age. He played 82 games and was 72 in points. So, no… he’s not proven as a first line player.

It doesn’t mean he can’t be. I’m simply skeptical that he will be. I think he’s another borderline 1st liner who’s better suited to the 2nd. Koivu is a good example of that kind of player.

How old is Connor McDavid? What a poor take there is no way in hell players reach their apogee at 23. AINEC I'll go out on a very strong limb and state unequivically Cole Caufield will never be a Superstar in the NHL.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

How old is Connor McDavid? What a poor take there is no way in hell players reach their apogee at 23.

Tons of players have their best seasons around that age.

AINEC I'll go out on a very strong limb and state unequivically Cole Caufield will never be a Superstar in the NHL.

The only question is health. Otherwise, you’re going to lose on that assertion. Over the last 80 games he paced for a 47 goal season per 82. That would’ve put him in the top ten for goals - almost top five. We haven’t done that in over three decades.

And he did it at 21 on a bad club fighting an injury that eventually ended his year. Yeah, he’s the real deal.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

I would never say no to an upgrade on holidays as our #1 but with the right wingers I’m more than fine with him as our top C. Especially with having Dach who is far from a finished product himself and can be easily just as good if not better

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

I would never say no to an upgrade on holidays as our #1 but with the right wingers I’m more than fine with him as our top C. Especially with having Dach who is far from a finished product himself and can be easily just as good if not better

Holidays??

 

[Sorinth]

Tons of players have their best seasons around that age.

The only question is health. Otherwise, you’re going to lose on that assertion. Over the last 80 games he paced for a 47 goal season per 82. That would’ve put him in the top ten for goals - almost top five. We haven’t done that in over three decades.

And he did it at 21 on a bad club fighting an injury that eventually ended his year. Yeah, he’s the real deal.

Pacioretty was top-5 in goals in 2013-2014, and top-10 in 2014-2015.

But I agree Caufield is a star and the real deal.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Pacioretty was top-5 in goals in 2013-2014, and top-10 in 2014-2015.

But I agree Caufield is a star and the real deal.

I didn’t realize Max got that high. That’s actually pretty good considering his totals.

 

[MadMslm]

I didn’t realize Max got that high. That’s actually pretty good considering his totals.

People used to crap a lot on Pacioretty.

From 2011-2012 to 2016-2017 Pacioretty was 4th IN THE WHOLE LEAGUE for goals.

Only 3 players ranked above him : Ovechkin, Stamkos and Pavelski.

That’s insane when you think about it.

He was an elite goalscorer, ranking over Crosby, Kane, Tavares and other great players.

 

[CHwest]

I would never say no to an upgrade on holidays as our #1 but with the right wingers I’m more than fine with him as our top C. Especially with having Dach who is far from a finished product himself and can be easily just as good if not better

I think Dach has a really high ceiling, higher than Suzuki's. Was great to see his improvement this season.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I didn’t realize Max got that high. That’s actually pretty good considering his totals.

He was a top-5 goalscorer for a large chunk of the decade.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

I think Dach has a really high ceiling, higher than Suzuki's. Was great to see his improvement this season.

I think Suzuki's shot may always give him a bit of an edge but Dach's scoring from in close should only get better as he matures. He'll only get stronger and be harder to get him off the puck.

I think they compliment each other really well. I feel confident with those two up the middle. Best is yet to come.

 

[Sorinth]

Not that I disagree with you in theory bird in the hand and all that but it's a false equivalency, because your comparing suzuki and Dach as though there similar but this year for Dach was the equivalent of Suzuki's second year in the league.

Dach age 21-22 58gp 14g 24a 38p
Suzuki age 21-22 54gp 15g 25a 41p

Not exactly a world of difference between the two at the same age

If we prorate the points to 82 games it's an 8.5 point difference which is pretty significant and Suzuki finished that season putting up 16 points in 22 playoff games which is really what cemented his status at that age. So yeah there's was a pretty significant difference even at the same age.

That said it's irrelevant as the only thing that matters is improving year over year so even though Dach is behind Suzuki at the same age it doesn't mean he can't surpass him though Suzuki is also still improving which makes it harder but better for us.

 

[marvelousmotion]

A real first line player produces no matter how bad the club is. They won’t drag a bad team to a cup but they will continue to produce. We didn’t see that from Nick this year. I was hoping for a lot more from him.

That’s not how it works. It’s not how it’s ever worked. From Yzerman to Mackinnon, those players rack up points on bad clubs. And they do it in their early 20s.

He’s not a number one yet. He’s 23. A lot of players have their peak season around that age. He played 82 games and was 72nd in points. So, no… he’s not proven as a first line player.

I think you're really over-estimating how well a player can produce all by himself on such a bad and heavily injured team. The emphasis on production without taking into account the extreme environment that Suzuki was in is clouding your judgement about his abilities as a 1st line center. He had no breathing room; he was basically the only player the opposing teams had to focus on and try to neutralize all year. Suzuki had zero support with all the injuries.

By the standards of your comparisons, you're basically expecting him to perform like a generational talent, which is unfair. Yzerman was one of the best centers in the history of the NHL. Plus, the worst Detroit team of his era had better players than the ones Suzuki played with this year.

To put things into perspective, even MacKinnon, one of the best in today's generation that you're using as an example, had a rough time producing when he was on a bad team. In his rookie season, when Colorado was a playoffs team, he had 63 points in 82 games. The following three seasons, his production took a hit and regressed as they stopped making the playoffs. He followed-up his rookie year with 38 points in 64 games, 52 points in 72 games, and 53 points in 82 games respectively. When his production took off the year after, it coincided with the Avalanches finally turning a corner and becoming a playoffs team again.

In those three non-playoffs years, not a single Avalanches player managed to produce more than 59 points and all of their productions regressed. They were not hit badly with injuries; they even had players like Iginla, Landeskog, Duchene and O'Reilly playing together all 82 games at some point. That's way more support than Suzuki ever had this season.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

He was a top-5 goalscorer for a large chunk of the decade.

Max was top 5 winger scorer for about 5 years in a row.