Player Discussion Nick Suzuki Part 11

[Frank Drebin]

Great, that is just what you want from a captain, setting a wonderful example

The teams mandate is to not win. Not too worried about Suzuki playing well when it matters.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I guess I have to do the annual Stop Caring About Plus-Minus And Especially Stop Caring About Plus-Minus For Offensive Players On Bad Teams post again.

Yes, Nick Suzuki is -16. No, this is not something we should care about at all. One of the biggest problems with plus-minus is that it includes shorthanded goals, and more importantly, that it INCLUDES EMPTY NET GOALS. I'll break down Suzuki's GF/GA numbers by situation as follows:

5v5: 39GF, 43GA (-4)
4v4: 0GF, 1GA (-1)
3v3: 0GF, 3GA (-3)
PP: 17GF, 1GA (counts for a -1)
PK: 1GF, 11GA (+1)
Canadiens' Net Empty: 3GF, 13GA (net -10 but counts as a -8 for plus/minus purposes because two of these GAs have already been counted under the 5v5 stats)
Opponent's Net Empty: 1GF, 1GA (0)

That breakdown makes it obvious why it's silly to use raw +/- in general, and why it's particularly misleading with players in Suzuki's situation as the go-to guy on a bad team which is going to be trailing in a lot of games and frequently have to pull the goalie. There is absolutely no good reason to value empty net goals the same way as even-strength goals when assessing a player's two-way ability, and that is exactly what +/- does.

His overall -16 comes from a -4 at 5v5, -3 in the OT minigame, -1 in 17 minutes of 4v4, and a -8 from being on the ice with the net empty. Suzuki being -4 at 5v5 50 games into the season on this team is not in any way concerning, and over half of the -16 comes from empty net nonsense with another quarter coming from tiny samples of 4v4 and 3v3.

We're obviously not converting enough on our 6 on 5s.

 

[Mrb1p]

Suzuki, like myself working from home on a Friday in the summer, is simply mailing it in right now

Why wouldn't he lmao?

 

[Colezuki]

We're obviously not converting enough on our 6 on 5s.

Does any team do it particularly well?

 

[Supersonic]

Why wouldn't he lmao?

I’m not ripping on him at all, I don’t blame him

 

[MarioLeMoose]

Great, that is just what you want from a captain, setting a wonderful example

Suzuki has been our best player since our cup run, and was our best skater during it.
Who do you think would be a better leader of this team?
Edmundson/Gallagher? they can barely stay in the lineup and when they do play they are terrible and we’re better off without them.
Nick is a fine example of a young leader and captain on this team. He is clearly not looking good out there the last chunk of games but give the kid a break.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Suzuki has been our best player since our cup run, and was our best skater during it.
Who do you think would be a better leader of this team?
Edmundson/Gallagher? they can barely stay in the lineup and when they do play they are terrible and we’re better off without them.
Nick is a fine example of a young leader and captain on this team. He is clearly not looking good out there the last chunk of games but give the kid a break.

The Cup run, our best player was Carey Price. The best leaders were Corey Perry, followed by Weber, Danault, Chariot, followed by Suzuki and Caufield. Even Stall had leadership. When Danault took care of Matthews and other centers, Suzuki was free to score goals.

See the pattern this year, when Monahan took care of big centers, Suzuki was free to make plays and score goals. Corey Perry : it's been two years he plays in the NHL since the Cup run, Bergevin should have kept him. Danault : he helped LA to make the PO last year, he scored 27 goals, he's much better than Habs fans were thinking. Lehkonen : another good player who was under the radar, he was the only player with a + stat last year, he went to Avs and won the cup, He played an important role in some games.

All this to say that sometimes the + stats means something. And leadership that bring the entire team to a different level is important too. I like Suzuki as a player but he have work to do. He's not elite yet and his leadership is a question mark, or unsufficient data to have an opinion.

 

[Kojo]

I don't understand why we can't even say anything bad about Suzuki, Caufield or MSL lest we are haters. He's not really playing well right-now, that's a fact.

 

[Mrb1p]

I don't understand why we can't even say anything bad about Suzuki, Caufield or MSL lest we are haters. He's not really playing well right-now, that's a fact.

What about Slaf? Why do you always defend him? Hes proven nothing, he was a reach based on size and hes getting rushed. Why cant we criticize him in your eye?

Caufield is a 45g + scorer, what do you want more? His jobs to put the puck in net and hes one of the 5 best person at it.

Suzuki has had success at every level and showed time and time again that he was a gamer. There is nothing to hate on.

 

[Kojo]

What about Slaf? Why do you always defend him? Hes proven nothing, he was a reach based on size and hes getting rushed. Why cant we criticize him in your eye?

Caufield is a 45g + scorer, what do you want more? His jobs to put the puck in net and hes one of the 5 best person at it.

Suzuki has had success at every level and showed time and time again that he was a gamer. There is nothing to hate on.

Well, Slafkovsky is an 18 years old player born out of Slovakia, he proved a lot so far. Do I need to go over it again? Just use google and see it for yourself. Slaf is way better than Suzuki or Caufield at the same age. That's why I defend him, because you always attack him. Where were you when Suzuki didn't even play in the WJC in his D+1 year?

 

[Mrb1p]

Well, Slafkovsky is an 18 years old player born out of Slovakia, he proved a lot so far. Do I need to go over it again? Just use google and see it for yourself. Slaf is way better than Suzuki or Caufield at the same age. That's why I defend him, because you always attack him. Where were you when Suzuki didn't even play in the WJC in his D+1 year?

What? No hes not wtf.

Suzuki was a 1.6 ppg player in the OHL, the same ppg Slaf put up in a seriously inferior league in Finland.

Caufield was breaking scoring records left and right in the ncaa.

Both were at least as good as him at 18.

 

[Kojo]

What? No hes not wtf.

Suzuki was a 1.6 ppg player in the OHL, the same ppg Slaf put up in a seriously inferior league in Finland.

Caufield was breaking scoring records left and right in the ncaa.

Both were at least as good as him at 18.

That's your opinion. Only one of those players played in the WC and the Olympics at 18 years old. Actually Slaf was 17 years old, which is insane.

 

[Heffyhoof]

What about Slaf? Why do you always defend him? Hes proven nothing, he was a reach based on size and hes getting rushed. Why cant we criticize him in your eye?

Caufield is a 45g + scorer, what do you want more? His jobs to put the puck in net and hes one of the 5 best person at it.

Suzuki has had success at every level and showed time and time again that he was a gamer. There is nothing to hate on.

Who could've guessed that you'd start talking about Slaf?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I don't understand why we can't even say anything bad about Suzuki, Caufield or MSL lest we are haters. He's not really playing well right-now, that's a fact.

You can talk about constructive criticism but overall bad comments will be targeted. It comes down to how you do it.

I've said for a while now, Suzuki is going to be targeted by other teams coaches and without Monahan, the results are different. Suzuki will be there for us when we need him but we need to fucus on our center depth cause he can't be on a island by himself.

One of the reasons why I'm all over trading for Dubois this summer. We can't let Suzuki drown and expect him to lead our team as both the best center and our captain. Too much burden for one player.

 

[SlafySZN]

.

 

[Tetragrammaton]

Great, that is just what you want from a captain, setting a wonderful example

He's a fine Captain. This is a lost season and everyone knows it.

 

[JoelWarlord]

All this to say that sometimes the + stats means something.

His +/- does mean something, but not what you are implying. All it means is that he's a go-to offensive player on a bad team and that the stat includes a ton of garbage empty net goals. Once again, Suzuki is a -4 at 5v5, -8 in empty net situations, and the remainder of the minuses come from tiny samples of 3v3 and 4v4 play. All Suzuki's +/- is really telling us is that the Habs suck and are forced to pull their goalie in a lot of games and Suzuki is always on the ice in those situations.

If you think that Suzuki being -16 reflects his two-way capabilities when he's -4 at 5v5 after 50 games on this garbage team, what you are implicitly saying is that you believe being on the ice when the team allows an empty net goal is just as reflective of his capabilities as being on the ice for a goal against in regular 5v5 play with a goalie in the net. That is patently absurd and nobody would ever make that argument, but by bringing up his +/- that is implicitly what you are doing because the stat treats those situations identically.

I'm not saying he's a perfect player either but his plus/minus tells us extremely little about his two way capabilities.

 

[Sagikev]

That's your opinion. Only one of those players played in the WC and the Olympics at 18 years old. Actually Slaf was 17 years old, which is insane.

He's also Slovakian, not Canadian or American. Let's just say the doors are wide open for him compared to NS or CC lol

Not taking anything away from him btw, Slaf absolutely took the chances that were given to him and ran away with it. Love the kid!

 

[Koivu11]

Suzuki was on the Spittin’ Chiclets podcast…interview starts around 2:07:00.

 

[Adriatic]

That's your opinion. Only one of those players played in the WC and the Olympics at 18 years old. Actually Slaf was 17 years old, which is insane.

Lolol are we gonna have to compare Canadian and Slovakian rosters now? You need a nap.

 

[ReHabs]

Suzuki was on the Spittin’ Chiclets podcast…interview starts around 2:07:00.

He’s remarkably boring. Jesus Christ.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Very happy with Suzuki driving the tank these days.

Wouldnt want him playing TOO well now would we.

A true captain knows whats best for his squad short and long term

 

[Benstheman]

He’s remarkably boring. Jesus Christ.

I love him.

 

[Naslundforever]

Suzuki was on the Spittin’ Chiclets podcast…interview starts around 2:07:00.

I like this new podcast interview trend. Like the guys say after the interview Suzuki will loosen up over the years; being a new captain with crazy media following.

Unrelated - he looks like he’d gain 50 lbs if he ever injured a leg for any prolonged period!

 

[Wats]

Well, Slafkovsky is an 18 years old player born out of Slovakia, he proved a lot so far. Do I need to go over it again? Just use google and see it for yourself. Slaf is way better than Suzuki or Caufield at the same age. That's why I defend him, because you always attack him. Where were you when Suzuki didn't even play in the WJC in his D+1 year?

Well Slaf didn't play in the WJC D+1 either.