Niagara IceDogs 2022-23 Off-Season Thread

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sbpointer

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Sep 15, 2014
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If I was RR’s agent I’d encourage to take the Leadership role to lead this team out of ashes! In tough times you don’t run, you lead
I see where you are going with this but there has to be tools in place to set him up for success.
We were seeing stories of these guys not even getting great meals on the road and stuff like that.
There is a glaring ownership issue here. One the league probably should have forseen with any research into this owners hockey history at all but here we are...

I couldn't see sending my kid into that mess..
 
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Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
City of St. Catharines (where the team is based) issued a statement.

St. Catharines Mayor and CAO demand meeting with IceDogs ownership

Here’s part of it:

“For more than 15 years our community has shown unprecedented support for our hometown hockey team. We have celebrated their victories and stood by them through their struggles.

The results of the OHL investigation show that the leadership of the organization and certain players have violated the trust of our community, and immediate action must be taken.

We have reached out to the Commissioner of the OHL asking for information and a meeting with OHL leadership, to understand the League’s position and the results of the investigation.

We are also demanding a meeting with the ownership group of the team immediately to discuss this situation and to determine a path forward that will restore the trust of the community.

This is an unacceptable situation that must be addressed swiftly and decisively.”
Anyone know what involvement, if any, the city haf with the Memorial Cup bid? Obviously with the investigation happening this bid was destined to fail. If the city was involved and most likely didn't know anything about the investigation then I don't see how they could ever work with this ownership group again
 

billoink

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Nov 18, 2013
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Could someone please share what exactly happened to create this situation for us people that are out of the loop?
 

Drop the Puck

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Apr 28, 2016
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Could someone please share what exactly happened to create this situation for us people that are out of the loop?
 

OMG67

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This is a very unfortunate situation in many ways. In my personal opinion, Niagara has one of the best fan bases in the league. Incredible support for the team. They play out of a great junior arena.

I think this highlights how difficult it is to find solid owners in the OHL now. With franchise prices escalated to around $20mil (rumoured), it really is a lot of money tied up in an investment where teams likely break even or make a small amount annually. This leads to owners only using the franchise as a toy or to satisfy their ego and build artificial status.

It doesn’t look like buying an OHL franchise is a sound business decision so this is what happens in some situations.

For some reason franchise values have gotten out of control in a league that doesn’t make much money. How a team like Ottawa can be purchased in 1999 for a record $5mil escalate to $20mil in 2022 is absurd when you consider all the labour disputes and turmoil amateur hockey is experiencing right now.

I’d like to think finding another owner would be relatively easy if this situation were to get to that level but it doesn’t look like the grass would be greener for a certainty.

I really hope this franchise stabilizes over the next two seasons. They will have a new GM and Kuwabara should add stability behind the bench. With any luck, this may turn out to be a positive for the franchise going into the future if there are issues with an owner. He will have less responsibility for there next couple of years. I think everyone hopes this shakeup will result in positives starting next season.
 

RayzorIsDull

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Ownership of the Ice Dogs has given the franchise and the league a massive black eye. Time for the league to take over the team and run it properly until they find a serious owner. One that isn't looking for a new toy. Team should be sold immediately. The league did what is right by banning the players for life yet let the owner basically off the hook. Sort of a gutless move on the leagues part. The owner had to know what the issues were ala the players. He has to be either blind and deaf or ignorant of the facts. Fans in the region deserve a well run organization. They are getting decent crowds. Branch has to be more than a person coming out on the ice getting his picture taken with players holding trophies. You would think he would right the ship and demand the sale. This time vet the owners. Hope he doesn't call Snoop Dog although the name seems to fit.
I understand what you're saying but I would disagree with the part I bolded. That is what probably got Niagara and the OHL in this situation to begin with. I would also add that Flint was never sold after the Nilsen stuff.
 
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Wolf on a Wire

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I see where you are going with this but there has to be tools in place to set him up for success.
We were seeing stories of these guys not even getting great meals on the road and stuff like that.
There is a glaring ownership issue here. One the league probably should have forseen with any research into this owners hockey history at all but here we are...

I couldn't see sending my kid into that mess..
Those issues you mentioned existed before this latest bombshell and RR and his agent would have been aware of the poor playing conditions and they still decided to sign. Don’t get me wrong everyone involved with this team deserves better from ownership but Bailing on the team now will set the franchise back 10 years IMO. Just wondering what agents knew about this situation prior to the draft and prior to signing. I can see how there are many concerning issues moving forward, but the league must ensure there is a Massive culture change within NID organization. Very tough situation…
 

OSA

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Jun 11, 2011
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I really disagree with taking a 1st round draft pick away from teams when things like this happen.

The collateral damage to the fan base and players is far worse than it is to the owner. There is already a now tarnished reputation for the team they cheer/play for, it’s seems nonsensical to make the situation worse for these innocent bystanders caught up in ownership shenanigans.

The league should fine the daylights out of, suspend, whatever the owner and anyone else involved and leave it at that.
 

BadgerBruce

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Aug 8, 2013
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This is a very unfortunate situation in many ways. In my personal opinion, Niagara has one of the best fan bases in the league. Incredible support for the team. They play out of a great junior arena.

I think this highlights how difficult it is to find solid owners in the OHL now. With franchise prices escalated to around $20mil (rumoured), it really is a lot of money tied up in an investment where teams likely break even or make a small amount annually. This leads to owners only using the franchise as a toy or to satisfy their ego and build artificial status.

It doesn’t look like buying an OHL franchise is a sound business decision so this is what happens in some situations.

For some reason franchise values have gotten out of control in a league that doesn’t make much money. How a team like Ottawa can be purchased in 1999 for a record $5mil escalate to $20mil in 2022 is absurd when you consider all the labour disputes and turmoil amateur hockey is experiencing right now.

I’d like to think finding another owner would be relatively easy if this situation were to get to that level but it doesn’t look like the grass would be greener for a certainty.

I really hope this franchise stabilizes over the next two seasons. They will have a new GM and Kuwabara should add stability behind the bench. With any luck, this may turn out to be a positive for the franchise going into the future if there are issues with an owner. He will have less responsibility for there next couple of years. I think everyone hopes this shakeup will result in positives starting next season.
The IceDogs were highly profitable as recently as 2016, when forensic accountant Ronald Smith examined the books at the behest of the Ontario Superior Court. Keep in mind that the Burkes also paid themselves more than handsome executive salaries, employed a slew of well-paid family members beyond just their sons, spent $170K per year to lease BMWs for the family, and even issued substantial corporate dividends to themselves.

This isn’t to suggest that EVERY major junior hockey franchise is so profitable, but the IceDogs absolutely are.

The previous owners were not “forced” to sell the team — they chose to do so instead of waiting out the league sanctions against their sons (one the GM, the other the head coach), both of whom received indefinite/2-year minimum suspensions.

When the previous owners eventually decided to sell, they sought the highest bidder.

The Darren DeDobbelaer group offered a reported $20 million. That was the highest bid. Yes, the league had to approve the sale, but saying “No” would have been very difficult. Remember, the league’s governors are the owners of the teams, and they understand that their own clubs increase in value when other franchises sell for big bucks. We’d all like to see franchises owned by good people, but DeDobbelaer had (or raised) enough cake to pay a premium, and that trumped everything else. It always does, and financial capacity is THE centrepiece of the league’s “vetting process.” Can’t have an undercapitalized owner.

Today, forcing DeDobbelaer to put the team up for sale is unlikely to happen. The league didn’t even approve his purchase until July 07, 2022 (almost exactly 10 months ago). Who knows the details of his financing agreements with lenders and minority partners. We don’t even know for sure if all elements of the July 2022 purchase agreement with the previous ownership are fully satisfied yet.

Now, in terms of the sanctions against him, my reading of the league’s announcement is that he interfered in the independent third-party investigation. The OHL said investigators interviewed approximately 15 former players, coaches, staff and team officials over a period of several months. The authors of the report stated that DeDobbelaer “violat[ed]the league’s confidentiality directive regarding the investigation.” We know what that’s code for, and given the extraordinary events of the past year or so (Hockey Canada and major junior hockey government inquiries), I’m truly floored that a junior hockey team owner would do something so … well, let’s settle for “dumb.” Poking your nose into a player maltreatment investigation is brazenly stupid.

Of course, he’s only suspended from being the GM. He’s not suspended as the owner. He’s likely forbidden to have any role in Hockey Ops, but he still runs the rest of the show and the league’s announcement makes no mention of any removal from the league’s Board of Governors, so he likely continues the same way as Flint’s Rolf Nilsen when he was suspended.

The whole thing is just ugly, and IceDogs fans deserve so much better.
 

sbpointer

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Those issues you mentioned existed before this latest bombshell and RR and his agent would have been aware of the poor playing conditions and they still decided to sign. Don’t get me wrong everyone involved with this team deserves better from ownership but Bailing on the team now will set the franchise back 10 years IMO. Just wondering what agents knew about this situation prior to the draft and prior to signing. I can see how there are many concerning issues moving forward, but the league must ensure there is a Massive culture change within NID organization. Very tough situation…
While that may be true the future sustainablility of the franchise is not the 16 y/o players problem. This league is supposed to be a vehicle for his development and the education package small backup plan if he's not a pro player.
I hear you on the agent being aware of the other issues I outlined and frankly I don't understand the willingness to commit based on that however there is always a red line and if the player and his representation feel its now crossed I don't see how anyone can fault them for bailing.
 
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Petes1987

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Oct 13, 2013
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He will have a clause that if he demands a trade, it will be granted, kind of the opposite of a no trade clause. Shouldn't be long until we hear this news


David Branch will have his son in there quickly
As a 1st round 16 year old he can only be traded in the January 1st trade window.
 

sbpointer

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Sep 15, 2014
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As a 1st round 16 year old he can only be traded in the January 1st trade window.
Correct but he doesn't have to report or play an OHL game prior to Jan 1.
There are some very good GOJHL teams he could develop with until then...
USHL is probably a great option Im less familiar with too...
 

OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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The IceDogs were highly profitable as recently as 2016, when forensic accountant Ronald Smith examined the books at the behest of the Ontario Superior Court. Keep in mind that the Burkes also paid themselves more than handsome executive salaries, employed a slew of well-paid family members beyond just their sons, spent $170K per year to lease BMWs for the family, and even issued substantial corporate dividends to themselves.

This isn’t to suggest that EVERY major junior hockey franchise is so profitable, but the IceDogs absolutely are.

The previous owners were not “forced” to sell the team — they chose to do so instead of waiting out the league sanctions against their sons (one the GM, the other the head coach), both of whom received indefinite/2-year minimum suspensions.

When the previous owners eventually decided to sell, they sought the highest bidder.

The Darren DeDobbelaer group offered a reported $20 million. That was the highest bid. Yes, the league had to approve the sale, but saying “No” would have been very difficult. Remember, the league’s governors are the owners of the teams, and they understand that their own clubs increase in value when other franchises sell for big bucks. We’d all like to see franchises owned by good people, but DeDobbelaer had (or raised) enough cake to pay a premium, and that trumped everything else. It always does, and financial capacity is THE centrepiece of the league’s “vetting process.” Can’t have an undercapitalized owner.

Today, forcing DeDobbelaer to put the team up for sale is unlikely to happen. The league didn’t even approve his purchase until July 07, 2022 (almost exactly 10 months ago). Who knows the details of his financing agreements with lenders and minority partners. We don’t even know for sure if all elements of the July 2022 purchase agreement with the previous ownership are fully satisfied yet.

Now, in terms of the sanctions against him, my reading of the league’s announcement is that he interfered in the independent third-party investigation. The OHL said investigators interviewed approximately 15 former players, coaches, staff and team officials over a period of several months. The authors of the report stated that DeDobbelaer “violat[ed]the league’s confidentiality directive regarding the investigation.” We know what that’s code for, and given the extraordinary events of the past year or so (Hockey Canada and major junior hockey government inquiries), I’m truly floored that a junior hockey team owner would do something so … well, let’s settle for “dumb.” Poking your nose into a player maltreatment investigation is brazenly stupid.

Of course, he’s only suspended from being the GM. He’s not suspended as the owner. He’s likely forbidden to have any role in Hockey Ops, but he still runs the rest of the show and the league’s announcement makes no mention of any removal from the league’s Board of Governors, so he likely continues the same way as Flint’s Rolf Nilsen when he was suspended.

The whole thing is just ugly, and IceDogs fans deserve so much better.

For a $20,000,000 investment, most would suggest a 7% return is the minimum requirement. That translates to $1.4mil annually in profits required. I really can’t see many Major Junior franchises, including Niagara pulling in that kind of return on investment.

I can see local leaders making an investment in the community like they do in Owen Sound or Kitchener. I can’t see a guy like DD making that kind of splash expecting that kind of return. Of course, franchise values will typically rise and there is a component you need to factor in for the appreciating asset but I’m not sure where Major Junior Hockey would need to go for a franchise like Niagara to appreciate at 7% per year. The franchise would need to be worth $40mil in 10 years of it were to theoretically make no profit. So, some sort of hybrid of appreciation of the asset combined with annual profits need to reach $1.4mil annually to make it a sound investment.

So, this circles back to the question of whether this is an ego play or an investment play. The way he is running it suggests ego.
 

BadgerBruce

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Aug 8, 2013
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Looks like the owner is lawyering-up:


Quote:

“But it must be noted that I have yet to receive a copy of the report of the OHL’s investigation and I would ask the Commissioner’s office to provide said document to me and my legal counsel for immediate review. I take these allegations very seriously, so it is imperative that I be given an opportunity to review the OHL’s findings, in detail, with my legal counsel.

I look forward to filing my appeal and defending my position.

I would ask you to direct all comments and inquiries to my legal counsel at Lucentem Sports and Entertainment Law.”
 

SSMHoundsFan

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Dec 30, 2014
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Looks like the owner is lawyering-up:


Quote:

“But it must be noted that I have yet to receive a copy of the report of the OHL’s investigation and I would ask the Commissioner’s office to provide said document to me and my legal counsel for immediate review. I take these allegations very seriously, so it is imperative that I be given an opportunity to review the OHL’s findings, in detail, with my legal counsel.

I look forward to filing my appeal and defending my position.

I would ask you to direct all comments and inquiries to my legal counsel at Lucentem Sports and Entertainment Law.”
Typical carbon cut response to these allegations...deny deny deny
 

Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
Looks like the owner is lawyering-up:


Quote:

“But it must be noted that I have yet to receive a copy of the report of the OHL’s investigation and I would ask the Commissioner’s office to provide said document to me and my legal counsel for immediate review. I take these allegations very seriously, so it is imperative that I be given an opportunity to review the OHL’s findings, in detail, with my legal counsel.

I look forward to filing my appeal and defending my position.

I would ask you to direct all comments and inquiries to my legal counsel at Lucentem Sports and Entertainment Law.”
Who does he appeal to?
 

BadgerBruce

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Aug 8, 2013
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Who does he appeal to?
In theory, the Board. In practice, Branch. Rolf Nilsen in Flint also unsuccessfully appealed the sanctions levied against him back in 2016.

Here’s a quick summary of how the process worked with Nilsen: https://thehockeynews.com/news/flin...-nilsen-wont-be-completely-out-of-the-picture

One of the things in DD’s statement I find interesting is that he omits any mention of the players who were suspended for life and only seems upset about the sanctions against himself (suspension) and the IceDogs corporate entity ($100K fine).
 
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ohloutsider

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Jan 13, 2016
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Looks like the owner is lawyering-up:


Quote:

“But it must be noted that I have yet to receive a copy of the report of the OHL’s investigation and I would ask the Commissioner’s office to provide said document to me and my legal counsel for immediate review. I take these allegations very seriously, so it is imperative that I be given an opportunity to review the OHL’s findings, in detail, with my legal counsel.

I look forward to filing my appeal and defending my position.

I would ask you to direct all comments and inquiries to my legal counsel at Lucentem Sports and Entertainment Law.”
Reading this , and maybe I'm misinterpreting it but it sounds like he is still carrying on with the duties of GM? Meeting with players, families and Intern staff sounds a lot like he has no intention of stepping back? Correct me if I've missed something?
 

SSMHoundsFan

Greyhounds/FlamesFan
Dec 30, 2014
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565
Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Reading this , and maybe I'm misinterpreting it but it sounds like he is still carrying on with the duties of GM? Meeting with players, families and Intern staff sounds a lot like he has no intention of stepping back? Correct me if I've missed something?
I think there's a fine line between Owner and GM in terms of their roles within the organization...he may be barred from being a GM but he still owns the team and needs to ensure it remains financially viable
 
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ohloutsider

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I think there's a fine line between Owner and GM in terms of their roles within the organization...he may be barred from being a GM but he still owns the team and needs to ensure it remains financially viable
Owners don't typically do all the day to day stuff like this. That is the duty of the GM. Now he does need time to transition but I'm not sure that is what is up here.
 

sbpointer

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I think there's a fine line between Owner and GM in terms of their roles within the organization...he may be barred from being a GM but he still owns the team and needs to ensure it remains financially viable
Maybe but signing the press release Owner and General Manager when he is clearly suspended as GM and everyone knows who he is is just petty bear poking and I hope he feels the wrath of it for the sake of the fans in the community of the franchise he is imploding.
 

BadgerBruce

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Aug 8, 2013
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Reading this , and maybe I'm misinterpreting it but it sounds like he is still carrying on with the duties of GM? Meeting with players, families and Intern staff sounds a lot like he has no intention of stepping back? Correct me if I've missed something?
You mean this part of his statement: “We are also working in earnest to ensure that we provide supports to our players and their families during this difficult time, given the uncertainly they all face. I will be working with the interim management team to put those supports in place.”

My best guess is that he doesn’t view “supports to our players and their families” as hockey ops work.

What I’m missing is any sense of what supports the players need. Few of them are in Niagara now (they’ve all gone home) and do they need “support” dealing with the owner’s suspension? The $100K fine? DD doesn’t mention anything else in his statement.
 
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