NHL & Vegas Part Deuces Wild: Betting it all on Black (Knights)

[The Feckless Puck]

I cant believe your trotting that old Chestnut out Jeffrey; Rubberneckers huh? Like people driving by an accident, see the victims of the crash walking around fine & dandy so they speed back up & take off. Only slowed down at all because everyone else was doing it. Lemmings.... People know what hockey is. Its a different experience experienced live than it is on the toob for sure. Its a pretty extreme sport. You dont have to have played it to appreciate it BUT, if the product sux, as in no to low scoring, apparent everyones playing scared, that its micro-managed to the point of destroying all creativity & aesthetic value, why bother? And thats the NHL you should be going after. Not the fans... As for "papering arenas'? There are no longer minimums reqd to receive Revenue Sharing proceeds pursuant to ticket sales be they walk-up or Seasons. Viola, Barroway & Le Blanc, why would they even care about creating a false image for the purposes of broadcast when their gunna get whatever they need from NHL Inc anyway?

^^ Exactly this. Thank you, K.

To get back to Las Vegas, the biggest concern I have is less the in-arena attendance for the first couple of years and more who Foley and co. find to head-coach and GM this team. Foley needs to get good hockey guys in place, not a Wayne Gretzky for promo purposes. If you list the reasons why the Arizona Coyotes spent a decade on life support, one of the top reasons is Wayne Gretzky's Super Happy Fun Country Club - his Old Pals network that wiped out the prospect base and killed every draft (seriously, go look at the Gretzky-year drafts and tell me that there was ANY sensible logic used), the WTF coaching style that was so eloquently elaborated upon by guys like Georges Laraques and Derek Morris, and Wayne's stupendous paycheck.

Vegas will already be behind the 8-ball because their roster will be populated by an expansion draft, so they'll need a savvy GM to stock the cupboard and a coach who is good with young players.

 

[BattleBorn]

Considering?

The last ownership group to sell a team for relocation to greener pastures only received $110 million, with another $60 million going to the League.

I really wonder if the Clippers two billion dollar purchase and the prospect of a $450m Vegas expansion fee will jack up sales prices. It's almost to the point where buying a pro team of any sort is more of a long term investment towards a payoff when you sell than actually making money running the thing.

 

[Jeffrey93]

I cant believe your trotting that old Chestnut out Jeffrey; Rubberneckers huh? Like people driving by an accident, see the victims of the crash walking around fine & dandy so they speed back up & take off. Only slowed down at all because everyone else was doing it. Lemmings.... People know what hockey is. Its a different experience experienced live than it is on the toob for sure. Its a pretty extreme sport. You dont have to have played it to appreciate it BUT, if the product sux, as in no to low scoring, apparent everyones playing scared, that its micro-managed to the point of destroying all creativity & aesthetic value, why bother? And thats the NHL you should be going after. Not the fans... As for "papering arenas'? There are no longer minimums reqd to receive Revenue Sharing proceeds pursuant to ticket sales be they walk-up or Seasons. Viola, Barroway & Le Blanc, why would they even care about creating a false image for the purposes of broadcast when their gunna get whatever they need from NHL Inc anyway?

Huh...makes me wonder why stuff like this exists then...

Clearly nobody cares if other people care right?

Scarcity Heuristic.....people value things more and want them more if they believe there is limited supply. You want tickets to an event more if you believe there aren't many left, and you'll pay more for them too. Never know when you might be able to get some again...better get them as often as you can.


Ever watched a game on TV where there was only friends and family in the crowd? Really sucks the life out of the game. Sure it's entertaining hockey....but I've seen entertaining pond hockey, that doesn't mean it would make good TV.

You don't think viewers would view a broadcast differently if there were 21,000 people in the stands or 2,100? I do. Means a lot for the perception of the league as well.

 

[Jeffrey93]

^^ Exactly this. Thank you, K.

To get back to Las Vegas, the biggest concern I have is less the in-arena attendance for the first couple of years and more who Foley and co. find to head-coach and GM this team. Foley needs to get good hockey guys in place, not a Wayne Gretzky for promo purposes. If you list the reasons why the Arizona Coyotes spent a decade on life support, one of the top reasons is Wayne Gretzky's Super Happy Fun Country Club - his Old Pals network that wiped out the prospect base and killed every draft (seriously, go look at the Gretzky-year drafts and tell me that there was ANY sensible logic used), the WTF coaching style that was so eloquently elaborated upon by guys like Georges Laraques and Derek Morris, and Wayne's stupendous paycheck.

Vegas will already be behind the 8-ball because their roster will be populated by an expansion draft, so they'll need a savvy GM to stock the cupboard and a coach who is good with young players.

You're really going to start talking about Head Coaches and GMs to a team that might never exist? I think the bigger concern should be if it's going to happen or not, should it happen, and if it happens will it work?

 

[Jett Jagaar]

McDonald's expands to places that have no interest in McDonald's? News to me.

I'll go into Tim Hortons and apply for a franchise in Odessa, TX. I'll tell them once it's built...I'll create demand for it. Can I quote you when I tell them that this is how McDonald's operates?

Actually, that is EXACTLY how an expanding business works.
Create a desire for a product or service in a area that would have previously never even been aware of it.

For any large business that wants to grow (which most do) they can't just stop once an area is saturated with their product/service.

As far as the NHL is concerned, Canada is a saturated market. They have the fans. The arena are full. TV viewership is as high as its going to get. NHL merchandise is being sold everywhere in the country. If the NHL wants revenues to continue to grow, it HAS to expand to new areas. And the most appealing places are where they have no natural competitors. ie. Las Vegas

The best course of action that EVERY growing company does is to move into an area that is devoid of that product/service. Create a desire/need in an area that until now didn't even realize there was a desire or need.

If the product is a good one, success will come. But it will take time.

 

[Killion]

Foley needs to get good hockey guys in place, not a Wayne Gretzky for promo purposes.

I dont think anyone will be making mistakes like that again........ oh, wait... Toronto...... Shanahan.

You want tickets to an event more if you believe there aren't many left, and you'll pay more for them too. Never know when you might be able to get some again...better get them as often as you can.

Nope. Sorry J93. Not buying it. Backless dresses of some girls with some really nice hair notwithstanding, not buying it and most other are the same.

You're really going to start talking about Head Coaches and GMs to a team that might never exist? I think the bigger concern should be if it's going to happen or not, should it happen, and if it happens will it work?

Poster, Member, fair question.... Hell, if I was Foley Id be playing the Sexy Las Vegas Card like there was no tomorrow.

I dont have brakes when it comes to that.

 

[cutchemist42]

oh absolutely. but it's also valid to suggest that it's not good to market a halfass version of your product. clean up the aisles before inviting in new customers. relocate struggling franchises and raise the overall bar.

it has always struck me as odd that the league seems perfectly satisfied holding on to poor franchises while looking towards expansion. sure, i get the "spread the butter" evenly argument when focusing at national broadcast, and league branding perspectives, but weaker parts never make for a stronger whole. that is, if stronger whole is the actual objective here, i dunno.

As a slight aside, and not arguing its better or not, but its interesting seeing leagues like the NBA being fairly quick to relocate vs how long the NHL sticks it out. Some would even argue if they had given Vancouver more time, they'd be sitting on a solid franchise there now vs what it does for the league in Memphis now.

Also, part of me will never understand this board's collective thoughts when the NHL is applauded for attempting new markets but the NFL is ridiculed for trying to go into Europe when that continent is already producing NFL talent.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Actually, that is EXACTLY how an expanding business works.
Create a desire for a product or service in a area that would have previously never even been aware of it.

For any large business that wants to grow (which most do) they can't just stop once an area is saturated with their product/service.

As far as the NHL is concerned, Canada is a saturated market. They have the fans. The arena are full. TV viewership is as high as its going to get. NHL merchandise is being sold everywhere in the country. If the NHL wants revenues to continue to grow, it HAS to expand to new areas. And the most appealing places are where they have no natural competitors. ie. Las Vegas

The best course of action that EVERY growing company does is to move into an area that is devoid of that product/service. Create a desire/need in an area that until now didn't even realize there was a desire or need.

If the product is a good one, success will come. But it will take time.

Makes me wonder why market studies are ever done then. Just go there...demand for your product will show up later.

Go setup a hamburger shop in a Hindu community, demand will follow.
Go setup an air conditioner sales office in Nunavut, demand will follow.

Why do you think this ticket sales drive is being done?!? To determine if there IS ALREADY enough demand to warrant an NHL franchise! The NHL by-laws require existing demand be proven! You don't just go to a market and say, "Demand?! Ahh, no worries bud. It'll come." Might as well expand to Brazil then...forget this Europe talk....South America makes more logistical sense, and demand....it'll show up. The people down there just don't know they love NHL hockey yet.

It's the fact that the ticket drive results seem to be of no concern to anyone is what is unsettling.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Nope. Sorry J93. Not buying it. Backless dresses of some girls with some really nice hair notwithstanding, not buying it and most other are the same.

I didn't make this stuff up you know, studies have been done. It's kind of a proven thing.

Why do you think they always say 'Tickets are going fast' or 'Limited supply' or 'Before they're gone' or 'Act now'.

It's a thing.

 

[Soundgarden]

Makes me wonder why market studies are ever done then. Just go there...demand for your product will show up later.

Go setup a hamburger shop in a Hindu community, demand will follow.
Go setup an air conditioner sales office in Nunavut, demand will follow.

Why do you think this ticket sales drive is being done?!? To determine if there IS ALREADY enough demand to warrant an NHL franchise! The NHL by-laws require existing demand be proven! You don't just go to a market and say, "Demand?! Ahh, no worries bud. It'll come." Might as well expand to Brazil then...forget this Europe talk....South America makes more logistical sense, and demand....it'll show up. The people down there just don't know they love NHL hockey yet.

It's the fact that the ticket drive results seem to be of no concern to anyone is what is unsettling.

The results aren't a concern to anyone because there isn't anything to worry about. 8,000/10,000 in a month or whatever it's been is great for them. No need to worry, heck Nashville didn't hit their mark until almost the last minute and now they're solidly entrenched in the local scene, more so than the Titans in some parts.

The rest of your argument doesn't really work, there's a major difference between putting a major league sports team in a large market with millions of people and a major tourist attraction and your "selling air conditioning to the Eskimos" thing.

This is a lot smaller then you are making it out to be.

 

[Jett Jagaar]

Makes me wonder why market studies are ever done then. Just go there...demand for your product will show up later.

Go setup a hamburger shop in a Hindu community, demand will follow.
Go setup an air conditioner sales office in Nunavut, demand will follow.

Why do you think this ticket sales drive is being done?!? To determine if there IS ALREADY enough demand to warrant an NHL franchise! The NHL by-laws require existing demand be proven! You don't just go to a market and say, "Demand?! Ahh, no worries bud. It'll come." Might as well expand to Brazil then...forget this Europe talk....South America makes more logistical sense, and demand....it'll show up. The people down there just don't know they love NHL hockey yet.

It's the fact that the ticket drive results seem to be of no concern to anyone is what is unsettling.

I disagree completely. The fact that 80% of the tickets have been sold in just over 4 weeks is fantastic news.

 

[BattleBorn]

It's the fact that the ticket drive results seem to be of no concern to anyone is what is unsettling.

So in five weeks, 8,000 desert residing people placed deposits on a team that might not ever exist, committing themselves to season tickets priced higher than half the teams in the NHL.

Should we be concerned because its taken five weeks longer than Winnipeg (after it was announced they were getting a team,) or are we happy because it's on pace to take four months less than it took Nashville after getting a team. I guess that's the question.

 

[Jett Jagaar]

So in five weeks, 8,000 desert residing people placed deposits on a team that might not ever exist, committing themselves to season tickets priced higher than half the teams in the NHL.

Should we be concerned because its taken five weeks longer than Winnipeg was announced to be getting a team, or are we happy because it's on pace to take four months less than it took Nashville after getting a team. I guess that's the question.

Hey BattleBorn, I just want to say how much I appreciate your being so level-headed and thorough with your posts and replies.

Even though 'experts' continue to throw straw-man arguments at you, you keep calm and carry on. Well done.

I'll buy you a beer on opening night.

 

[Jeffrey93]

The results aren't a concern to anyone because there isn't anything to worry about. 8,000/10,000 in a month or whatever it's been is great for them. No need to worry, heck Nashville didn't hit their mark until almost the last minute and now they're solidly entrenched in the local scene, more so than the Titans in some parts.

The rest of your argument doesn't really work, there's a major difference between putting a major league sports team in a large market with millions of people and a major tourist attraction and your "selling air conditioning to the Eskimos" thing.

This is a lot smaller then you are making it out to be.

They're called Inuit.

Anyway....say they never make it to 10,000. What then? Say they take an incredibly long time? Does the league want to risk another Nashville? Because that could have turned out very differently....very easily. And I'm not sure I'd say they are 'solidly entrenched' either....established maybe.

 

[HanSolo]

Makes me wonder why market studies are ever done then. Just go there...demand for your product will show up later.

Go setup a hamburger shop in a Hindu community, demand will follow.
Go setup an air conditioner sales office in Nunavut, demand will follow.

Why do you think this ticket sales drive is being done?!? To determine if there IS ALREADY enough demand to warrant an NHL franchise! The NHL by-laws require existing demand be proven! You don't just go to a market and say, "Demand?! Ahh, no worries bud. It'll come." Might as well expand to Brazil then...forget this Europe talk....South America makes more logistical sense, and demand....it'll show up. The people down there just don't know they love NHL hockey yet.

It's the fact that the ticket drive results seem to be of no concern to anyone is what is unsettling.

Because they shouldn't be a concern? All things considered, 8000 season tickets in 4 weeks is pretty good for Vegas.

 

[BattleBorn]

I'll buy you a beer on opening night.

I'll take you up on that.

I'll be the guy sitting above the TV nest in P5 with the enormous smile on my face.

 

[Grudy0]

As a slight aside, and not arguing its better or not, but its interesting seeing leagues like the NBA being fairly quick to relocate vs how long the NHL sticks it out. Some would even argue if they had given Vancouver more time, they'd be sitting on a solid franchise there now vs what it does for the league in Memphis now.

That wasn't necessarily the NBA's call...

John McCaw, through Orca Bay, owned the Canucks, Grizzlies and GM Place. In September 1999, McCaw attempted to sell to Bill Laurie, the then owner of the St. Louis Blues for $200 million. The NBA nixed the deal, partially because the purchase price was actually about $148 million with another $52 million payable upon relocation.

Orca Bay sold the Grizzlies to Michael Heisley in January, 2001. It was stated at the press conference that he was committed to keeping the team in Vancouver. And one month later, the team was being shopped around to the highest venue.

I'm guessing that without a covenant with the league and with a sale of the franchise by the arena operator that the Grizzlies were effectively evicted...

Also, part of me will never understand this board's collective thoughts when the NHL is applauded for attempting new markets but the NFL is ridiculed for trying to go into Europe when that continent is already producing NFL talent.

People forget how business works: if there's $ or C$ or £ involved, people will chase it.

 

[cutchemist42]

That wasn't necessarily the NBA's call...

John McCaw, through Orca Bay, owned the Canucks, Grizzlies and GM Place. In September 1999, McCaw attempted to sell to Bill Laurie, the then owner of the St. Louis Blues for $200 million. The NBA nixed the deal, partially because the purchase price was actually about $148 million with another $52 million payable upon relocation.

Orca Bay sold the Grizzlies to Michael Heisley in January, 2001. It was stated at the press conference that he was committed to keeping the team in Vancouver. And one month later, the team was being shopped around to the highest venue.

I'm guessing that without a covenant with the league and with a sale of the franchise by the arena operator that the Grizzlies were effectively evicted...People forget how business works: if there's $ or C$ or £ involved, people will chase it.

I just get the feeling that similar scenario would not have been a move under Gary's NHL, whether it was ensuring no-moves as part of the sale or something similar.

 

[Jett Jagaar]

I'll take you up on that.

I'll be the guy sitting above the TV nest in P5 with the enormous smile on my face.

Nice! I'll be in the nosebleeds for the first year, but my smile will be as big as anybody's.

 

[Killion]

Why do you think they always say 'Tickets are going fast' or 'Limited supply' or 'Before they're gone' or 'Act now'.

Ya, sure... guys in Cheap Seersucker Suits with White Vinyl Belts & Matching Loafers used to trot stuff like that out all the time (some still do I suppose - Used RV Lots, End of Roll Flooring & Fire Sale Appliance Warehouses) in the age of Bugsy Seigel, Micky Spillane, Wild Bill Hunter & even Mel Lastman with his Bad Boys Chain & cheap toupee's... Bastid offspring... but I digress.... You buy from guys like that, yer gunna get what you pay for. Bad product, bad time.

 

[Grudy0]

I just get the feeling that similar scenario would not have been a move under Gary's NHL, whether it was ensuring no-moves as part of the sale or something similar.

Yet almost the exact same scenario played out when the Thrashers were being shopped...

...they were out of options when the owner, the arena operator, sold the team for relocation.

Which brings me back to my original point: franchise owners have rights, too.

 

[Killion]

Does the league want to risk another Nashville?

What?! Craig Leipold was rewarded for his betrayal & complicity in very nearly selling Nashville to Boots Del Biaggio & Jim Balsillie with Minnesota.
Just what the Hell that has to do with Vegas I havent got a clue, dots do not connect. Dont bother trying... whole other story.

Back on topic please J93.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

You're really going to start talking about Head Coaches and GMs to a team that might never exist?

Yes, I am. If other posters are allowed to speculate about where the Coyotes and Panthers are going to end up WHEN they're relocated (not IF), then I don't think I'm out of bounds in speculating about the leadership of a Las Vegas team whose odds of becoming the next NHL expansion franchise are exceptionally good.

Moreover, it's on-topic, so I think I'm fairly safe.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

As a slight aside, and not arguing its better or not, but its interesting seeing leagues like the NBA being fairly quick to relocate vs how long the NHL sticks it out. Some would even argue if they had given Vancouver more time, they'd be sitting on a solid franchise there now vs what it does for the league in Memphis now.

I have noticed that too, and I would argue that that is one of the reasons why the NBA has had a struggle in maintaining its relevance.

It's very similar to the decline in NASCAR's popularity. One of the historic strengths NASCAR had was brand identity - a driver like Dale Earnhardt in the #3 Goodwrench car was something that was a relationship of decades - but these days drivers and teams rotate around so much that fans have problems keeping track. Worse yet, the days of a team having a single sponsor are gone - teams go through three, four, even five sponsors per season, and consequently the ROI of having a sponsor relationship with a racing team has collapsed.

With the NHL, their theory is if the franchise DON'T relocate, it speaks to the greater permanence of the league. A league like the NBA whose franchises relocate at the drop of a hat becomes more like a barnstormer league and fans may be more skeptical about investing financially or passionately.

Having said all that, ultimately it all comes down to the team ownership. If they want to go and they ask the NHL for an out, then they're going to go, unless it's a Balsillie hijack operation.

 

[cutchemist42]

Yet almost the exact same scenario played out when the Thrashers were being shopped...

...they were out of options when the owner, the arena operator, sold the team for relocation.

Which brings me back to my original point: franchise owners have rights, too.

I thought the (Thrashers sale was part of a bigger sale where the NHL couldnt control any slection of the new owners? Unless Im forgetting details...)