NHL & Vegas Part Deuces Wild: Betting it all on Black (Knights)

[Killion]

Thrashers sale was part of a bigger sale where the NHL couldnt control any selection of the new owners? Unless Im forgetting details...

Its in brackets but yes, the crux of the matter is "who are the applicants & potential owners, and what do they bring to the clubhouse & table"?. In a case like Arizona, thats not entirely clear. In the case of Las Vegas with Foley in particular & the Maloofs tangentially, its pretty obvious. Not to derail the thread, but the NHL's been lucky of late with ownership, Winnipeg, Dallas, Buffalo etc. New breed of actual Visionaries. Smart people. Far be it for me to compliment Gary Bettman & the NHL, but maybe, just maybe, Babys (finally) Growing Up? Could it be possible?

 

[psowrc]

They're called Inuit.

Anyway....say they never make it to 10,000. What then? Say they take an incredibly long time? Does the league want to risk another Nashville? Because that could have turned out very differently....very easily. And I'm not sure I'd say they are 'solidly entrenched' either....established maybe.

You seem to be caught up in the numbers issue. The league never stipulated 10000 to Foley. His group did. The NHL didn't stipulate 10000 tickets by the end of March. Foley did.

Here is the numbers you need to consider - 10000+ season tickets + 450 million dollars equals an NHL franchise.

 

[Killion]

Here is the numbers you need to consider - 10000+ season tickets + 450 million dollars equals an NHL franchise.

Quite correct... and as Ive said before and will say it again... convinced that Vegas is a done deal and to soften (in a deal already pre-ordained from on High) the incredulity from traditionalists they will simultaneously announce the return of the Quebec Nordiques.... Combined?... Knock. Out. Punch.... Giddyup.

Doesnt get any sexier than the French & Las Vegas Baby.

 

[BattleBorn]

Quite correct... and as Ive said before and will say it again... convinced that Vegas is a done deal and to soften (in a deal already pre-ordained from on High) the incredulity from traditionalists they will simultaneously announce the return of the Quebec Nordiques.... Combined?... Knock. Out. Punch.... Giddyup.

Doesnt get any sexier than the French & Las Vegas Baby.

Hope not, I want our own draft and to be protected the next year when Seattle/Quebec come on board.

 

[psowrc]

Hope not, I want our own draft and to be protected the next year when Seattle/Quebec come on board.

I will be waving at you from P6!

 

[psowrc]

Quite correct... and as Ive said before and will say it again... convinced that Vegas is a done deal and to soften (in a deal already pre-ordained from on High) the incredulity from traditionalists they will simultaneously announce the return of the Quebec Nordiques.... Combined?... Knock. Out. Punch.... Giddyup.

Doesnt get any sexier than the French & Las Vegas Baby.

The NHL has the possiblity of two golden geese in their hand with LV and Quebec - why squeeze an egg out of both in the same year? Wouldn't it be better for the league financially to keep the hype of expansion going for two years?

 

[FlaPantherSwe*]

I sure both get expansions soon i love growth

 

[Killion]

The NHL has the possiblity of two golden geese in their hand with LV and Quebec - why squeeze an egg out of both in the same year? Wouldn't it be better for the league financially to keep the hype of expansion going for two years?

Not really, no. The leagues are riding the Crest of the Big Wave created by the Clippers Sale, and its entirely artificial. Ideally, Foley pays maybe $200M upfront, the rest based on performance going 2 ways, Capped Consent Form, ability to move (maybe San Diego if he gets a new building up.. this is a California Boy were talking about & that market is prime - escape clause if it comes to it) freely himself or sell for Relo within 5yrs to Seattle or Portland. From what Ive read, seen. heard, the NHL a Hell of a lot more progressive, "flexible" than its ever been. Clearly a lot more so then the NBA.

 

[Jett Jagaar]

Quite correct... and as Ive said before and will say it again... convinced that Vegas is a done deal and to soften (in a deal already pre-ordained from on High) the incredulity from traditionalists they will simultaneously announce the return of the Quebec Nordiques.... Combined?... Knock. Out. Punch.... Giddyup.

Doesnt get any sexier than the French & Las Vegas Baby.

You may be onto something. Bettman did recently say that to him there was no real difference between 17-15 teams and 16-14 teams.

 

[Fugu]

You may be onto something. Bettman did recently say that to him there was no real difference between 17-15 teams and 16-14 teams.

Bettman also said there was an alignment imbalance, and that they'd worked very hard to get all the Eastern time zone teams into the same time zone.

No one in the East right is going to move West. So, unless QC is in the Central......

 

[cutchemist42]

I guess one worry I actually have is that hockey is not close to baseball/basketball/soccer in terms of participation, and even football has a deeper talent base. Salary Cap era in this next expansion is going to give a lot of AHL talent NHL salaries.

 

[TheLegend]

They're called Inuit.

Anyway....say they never make it to 10,000. What then? Say they take an incredibly long time? Does the league want to risk another Nashville? Because that could have turned out very differently....very easily. And I'm not sure I'd say they are 'solidly entrenched' either....established maybe.

Wait...

First you questioned Feckless talking about front office staff because in your opinion it isn't relevant because the franchise hasn't happened, and now you are wanting to talk about another scenario that hasn't happened yet either?

 

[Jett Jagaar]

Bettman also said there was an alignment imbalance, and that they'd worked very hard to get all the Eastern time zone teams into the same time zone.

No one in the East right is going to move West. So, unless QC is in the Central......

Um, could you please stop raining on my internal fantasy scenarios with your 'fancy facts'? Thanks

 

[blueandgoldguy]

^^ Exactly this. Thank you, K.

To get back to Las Vegas, the biggest concern I have is less the in-arena attendance for the first couple of years and more who Foley and co. find to head-coach and GM this team. Foley needs to get good hockey guys in place, not a Wayne Gretzky for promo purposes. If you list the reasons why the Arizona Coyotes spent a decade on life support, one of the top reasons is Wayne Gretzky's Super Happy Fun Country Club - his Old Pals network that wiped out the prospect base and killed every draft (seriously, go look at the Gretzky-year drafts and tell me that there was ANY sensible logic used), the WTF coaching style that was so eloquently elaborated upon by guys like Georges Laraques and Derek Morris, and Wayne's stupendous paycheck.

Vegas will already be behind the 8-ball because their roster will be populated by an expansion draft, so they'll need a savvy GM to stock the cupboard and a coach who is good with young players.

The coyotes draft history and decision-making was suspect long before Gretzky arrived on the scene. They only drafted one person of consequence in the 5 drafts prior to Wayne being fully involved in the team - Daniel Briere. And ownership screwed the team before it even arrived in Phoenix by squandering a franchise player in Teemu Selanne trading him for 2 players, neither of which turned out as expected. Without Gretzky, the team might have ended up in the exact same situation - nearly a decade without a playoff team.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

I really wonder if the Clippers two billion dollar purchase and the prospect of a $450m Vegas expansion fee will jack up sales prices. It's almost to the point where buying a pro team of any sort is more of a long term investment towards a payoff when you sell than actually making money running the thing.

I think that national tv contract that pays each NBA team $80 million per season will greatly assist any new owners in recouping their investments.

 

[Killion]

... nearly a decade without a playoff team.

a mess. as they were unfortunately. like they never had a chance. brutal.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

a mess. as they were unfortunately. like they never had a chance. brutal.

I looked at Phoenix draft history and was shocked at how bad it was in those first ten years. After Briere the only 2 players they drafted in the following ten years that remained with the team for a reasonable amount of time AND contributed in a meaningful way were Hanzal and Yandle in 2005. Hmmmm..Hanzal and Yandle..sounds like a nursery rhyme from Europe.

 

[GuelphStormer]

Bettman also said there was an alignment imbalance, and that they'd worked very hard to get all the Eastern time zone teams into the same time zone.

No one in the East right is going to move West. So, unless QC is in the Central......

Bettman says a lot of things.

Not really, no. The leagues are riding the Crest of the Big Wave created by the Clippers Sale, and its entirely artificial. Ideally, Foley pays maybe $200M upfront, the rest based on performance going 2 ways, Capped Consent Form, ability to move (maybe San Diego if he gets a new building up.. this is a California Boy were talking about & that market is prime - escape clause if it comes to it) freely himself or sell for Relo within 5yrs to Seattle or Portland. From what Ive read, seen. heard, the NHL a Hell of a lot more progressive, "flexible" than its ever been. Clearly a lot more so then the NBA.

are you suggesting the NHL would actually allow Vegas to purchase a discounted, portable expansion team? wow. that would be crazy.

 

[Tawnos]

I guess one worry I actually have is that hockey is not close to baseball/basketball/soccer in terms of participation, and even football has a deeper talent base. Salary Cap era in this next expansion is going to give a lot of AHL talent NHL salaries.

That happens in every expansion. It's a temporary thing.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

That happens in every expansion. It's a temporary thing.

Agreed.

But there's also an interesting caveat this time around.... teams will have only so many roster slots that they can protect in an expansion draft while simultaneously having a salary cap/floor to deal with. Would not be at all surprised to see the more cap-pressed teams leaving good players with bad contracts unprotected for the newcomers to pick up if they're so inclined. Especially if the expansion teams have to immediately reach the cap floor (which I'm not sure will be the case or not), a Clarkson or a Bolland contract might very well be extremely attractive to a team that's otherwise made up of third/fourth liners, rookies, and AHLers.

 

[MNNumbers]

Not sure what the rules might be, but with the cap (this is the first expansion in any sport with a cap, right?), it could well be that the Las Vegas team is can end up more competitive that any previous expansion team, right from the start. It will be interesting.

 

[Fugu]

Bettman says a lot of things.


are you suggesting the NHL would actually allow Vegas to purchase a discounted, portable expansion team? wow. that would be crazy.

Are you suggesting current BOG will approve an expansion that forces teams out of the Eastern time zone (again) just to accommodate one new team?

They believe in a pecking order in the NHL.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

They believe in a pecking order in the NHL.

They certainly do, which is also why you'd almost assuredly see an expansion team not get the first overall pick in their first draft, just like in 2000 where the Wild and Jackets got 3rd and 4th overall picks.

Welcome to the club... in a few weeks, freshman. Take your lower draft pick, we're not giving up the chance to land a franchise player first or second overall.

 

[Fugu]

Agreed.

But there's also an interesting caveat this time around.... teams will have only so many roster slots that they can protect in an expansion draft while simultaneously having a salary cap/floor to deal with. Would not be at all surprised to see the more cap-pressed teams leaving good players with bad contracts unprotected for the newcomers to pick up if they're so inclined. Especially if the expansion teams have to immediately reach the cap floor (which I'm not sure will be the case or not), a Clarkson or a Bolland contract might very well be extremely attractive to a team that's otherwise made up of third/fourth liners, rookies, and AHLers.

The NHLPA does not share in the expansion fee, so there is no incentive for them to let a new team operate "outside the system." Bettman has never allowed player costs to work "outside the system."

I do agree that some better players with less desirable contracts could be left unprotected, but I absolutely think the teams will have to be cap compliant. It may be tougher on them to piece together enough quality players. That said, maybe the NHL will allow fewer players to be protected. These teams shouldn't be allowed to have their cake and eat it too.

Not sure what the rules might be, but with the cap (this is the first expansion in any sport with a cap, right?), it could well be that the Las Vegas team is can end up more competitive that any previous expansion team, right from the start. It will be interesting.

It would be ironic if the expansion teams ended up with better rosters than some of the current so-called rebuilds.

 

[ponder719]

The NHLPA does not share in the expansion fee, so there is no incentive for them to let a new team operate "outside the system." Bettman has never allowed player costs to work "outside the system."

I do agree that some better players with less desirable contracts could be left unprotected, but I absolutely think the teams will have to be cap compliant. It may be tougher on them to piece together enough quality players. That said, maybe the NHL will allow fewer players to be protected. These teams shouldn't be allowed to have their cake and eat it too.

What the league may attempt to negotiate with the PA is a system like the NBA's, applicable only to the expansion teams and only for a set period (2, 3, 5 years max) where the team doesn't have to take on big salaries for the sake of reaching the cap floor, but if they come in under the floor for whatever reason, the difference between their total cap charge and the floor gets divided amongst all the players who were on their roster that year, in shares equivalent to the number of games they played (so, a player on their roster for 82 games would get a full share, while an AHLer who was only there for a game would get 1/82 of a share.)

That way, the team wouldn't have to take on bad salary just to take on bad salary, but the players would still get their full take.

Of course, they could just take Vinny, AMac, Umberger, and the carcass of Chris Pronger's deal off Philly's hands. That'd fix the cap hit right quick.