NHL & Vegas Part Deuces Wild: Betting it all on Black (Knights)

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syc

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Funny seeing the same old grow the game argument. Weve been hearing that for 20 years now and league still gets peanuts from it's US TV deal. Oh well maybe the next TV deal will be good, just have to wait another 10 years for the current deal to expire. GJ Bettman.

NHL fans should thank Rogers errrr Canada for paying too much for TV rights and tickets so that their dirt cheap tickets can be subsidized by drone like Leaf fans.

I do hope Vegas gets a team but I also hope it fails miserably. Sorry Vegas hockey fans.
 

BattleBorn

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I do hope Vegas gets a team but I also hope it fails miserably. Sorry Vegas hockey fans.

I guess I'll never understand the mindset of someone that loves hockey hoping anything in the league is a failure.

More power to you, my friend.
 

Agalloch

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Funny seeing the same old grow the game argument. Weve been hearing that for 20 years now and league still gets peanuts from it's US TV deal. Oh well maybe the next TV deal will be good, just have to wait another 10 years for the current deal to expire. GJ Bettman.

NHL fans should thank Rogers errrr Canada for paying too much for TV rights and tickets so that their dirt cheap tickets can be subsidized by drone like Leaf fans.

I do hope Vegas gets a team but I also hope it fails miserably. Sorry Vegas hockey fans.

Expanding your product is the principal purpose of 'Expansion'. Expansion is growing the game.
 

The Feckless Puck

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I guess I'll never understand the mindset of someone that loves hockey hoping anything in the league is a failure.

I understand it all too well, unfortunately. You get quite an education after a few years of bankruptcy and litigation and crucifixion in the press and so forth.

The issue is not about hockey, it's about NHL hockey. I'm sure, philosophically, that even the most ardent relocationist would admit that he wants to see the game grow, but he will never admit that the league should be a mechanism of that growth. For this type of fan, the league is not a catalyst for the game, it is a reward for fan passion - you cheer the loudest and show up in the biggest crowds, and your reward is that you get the goodies (i.e. an NHL franchise).

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Tawnos

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Is this the only business (NHL Hockey) where a plan of going where demand is lowest is a smart business model?

McDonalds internationally. Coca Cola internationally. There are plenty of businesses that have worked successfully off this business model. Yes, there are differences between the entertainment industry and the restaurant or beverage industries. The idea that you can go somewhere and create demand is not unique to the NHL.
 

The Feckless Puck

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Imagine a potential NHL customer in Las Vegas right now tuning into a Florida Panthers game because the hype got him to buy NHL Center Ice. And he sees 7,800 people watching the game live. That really must create demand eh?

See, the problem with your argument is that people don't - or, rather, shouldn't - tune into a sporting event to count empty seats in the crowd.

If people are too distracted by empty seats in the arena to watch the on-ice product, then doesn't that say something about the product rather than where it's hosted?
 

GuelphStormer

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See, the problem with your argument is that people don't - or, rather, shouldn't - tune into a sporting event to count empty seats in the crowd.

If people are too distracted by empty seats in the arena to watch the on-ice product, then doesn't that say something about the product rather than where it's hosted?
oh absolutely. but it's also valid to suggest that it's not good to market a halfass version of your product. clean up the aisles before inviting in new customers. relocate struggling franchises and raise the overall bar.

it has always struck me as odd that the league seems perfectly satisfied holding on to poor franchises while looking towards expansion. sure, i get the "spread the butter" evenly argument when focusing at national broadcast, and league branding perspectives, but weaker parts never make for a stronger whole. that is, if stronger whole is the actual objective here, i dunno.
 

BattleBorn

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weaker parts never make for a stronger whole. that is, if stronger whole is the actual objective here, i dunno.

Not at the present moment, no. Future, maybe. If the stated goal is to grow the game then you can't turn your back on Miami's 5.5 million people, even if it's a crap sports town, to put a team in QC.

I was having a discussion with some Quebecers on some social media site recently. They were, of course, frustrated with the Vegas thing, but even they agreed bringing the Nordiques back only serves to make current hockey fans happy. Again, if the goal is to grow the sport, that doesn't do much to achieve that. Nords fans didn't stop watching games en masse.

I still think the original Province article that started this whole expansion discussion in earnest is probably the closest description of the league's long term goal and that there will be teams in Vegas, Seattle, QC, and GTA2. The article made it seem like it was happening all at once, but if it's a short/mid term goal for all those teams to come through, I expect we'll see it within the next few years and that the way it's going right now is probably the correct way to do it business-wise and difficulty wise as well.

1. Vegas is easy, arena is ready owner is interested, figure out if LV can support a team.
2. Seattle is more difficult, get the arena, then go for it evening everything out conference-wise.
3. Quebec's arena is there, figure out what Florida's doing and expand or relocate.
4. GTA2 - Nightmare logistics, realignment again if Quebec gets an expansion. If Florida moves, it's dead for the time being.
 

Grudy0

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oh absolutely. but it's also valid to suggest that it's not good to market a halfass version of your product. clean up the aisles before inviting in new customers. relocate struggling franchises and raise the overall bar.

it has always struck me as odd that the league seems perfectly satisfied holding on to poor franchises while looking towards expansion. sure, i get the "spread the butter" evenly argument when focusing at national broadcast, and league branding perspectives, but weaker parts never make for a stronger whole. that is, if stronger whole is the actual objective here, i dunno.
I'm missing something here:

If I purchase the Florida Panthers, where is it within the League documentation that the NHL can move my franchise? I realize I have to run within the confines of the League's rules, but I'm certain I have rights to run my business.
 

BattleBorn

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I'm missing something here:

If I purchase the Florida Panthers, where is it within the League documentation that the NHL can move my franchise? I realize I have to run within the confines of the League's rules, but I'm certain I have rights to run my business.

I always think that point is the one that runs counter to the "expand the game" thing.

If Viola and Co. sees the opportunity to make ridiculous amounts of money selling the team to a Quebec group or figuring out a way to move it up there himself, you've got to think he'd do it if the alternative is waiting it out in Miami hoping the tides turn despite Bettman's desire to grow the league. Sure the powers that be could make it a nightmare, but if the other option is hemorrhaging money in Florida, it's got to be an option worth considering.
 

The Feckless Puck

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oh absolutely. but it's also valid to suggest that it's not good to market a halfass version of your product. clean up the aisles before inviting in new customers. relocate struggling franchises and raise the overall bar.

Look, I totally get the angst over the lack of teams in Canadian markets where demand is enormous. But the "halfass version of [the] product" that matters is what's going on down on the playing surface, not what's happening in the stands - especially if you're talking about a televised event.

Yes, it's embarrassing as hell for, say, a Toronto Maple Leafs fan who would mortgage his child to afford an upper-level ticket to see a game in person to see empty seats in Florida, Carolina, Dallas, Nashville, Columbus, etc., because that fan is on the wrong side of the supply-demand equation. But that frame of mind is completely separate from the ostensible audience who the NHL is trying to woo - because in-person attendance figures are minutiae that don't translate to a television audience.

The critical sales point for any professional sport in this day and age is whether the action can translate well onto TV. If you've ever been to an NFL game in person, you know how exasperatingly dull it is to watch because modern pro football is built to be a televised sport, not an in-person sport. But the NFL is North America's most popular sport by a frigging landslide because what makes the sport crushingly boring in person is what makes the TV broadcasts so perfect - play, break in the action for replays and analysis, play, break for replays, time out, commercials (perfectly spaced for pee breaks), etc. and so forth.

So if the main point of contention about NHL hockey in non-traditional markets is that the empty seats look sad on TV, then you're focused on the wrong thing. They could play the games in completely empty arenas and have piped-in crowd noise and the effect would be exactly the same, because it's what happens on that big slab of ice that is what makes or breaks the audience's expectations.

Now, when you're talking about in-person attendance, that's a separate issue. But teams that have marketable stars and on-ice success do not have to struggle to draw fans. The Chicago Blackhawks are the poster child for this. Prior to drafting Kane and Toews and going on their run of Cups, they drew fewer fans than Arizona did. By the extant definition of "struggling" used around here, that would mean that the Hawks - an Original Six team - should have been moved to a Canadian market. Suggest that now, and you get infuriated Chicagoans who will tell you that Hawks fans are the greatest in sports (and yet they can't explain where they were a few years ago when it mattered).

The NHL has its own priorities that it follows to grow its business and product. That's the reality. It won't make hockey fans who don't have NHL franchises happy. It certainly won't make me happy if it happens that in a couple of years I end up without a local team to cheer for. But it does mean that Las Vegas is going to be given a shot to succeed, and it's clear that for the NHL it's a much bigger imperative than putting a team in Hamilton, Markham, or Quebec City.
 

Hoodaha

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I dont think theyll get to 10k.

Lowest tix are 1800 bucks for 2

just not happening

They'll get to 10k after a few weeks, and then it'll jump substantially when they add in all of the corporate seats that they've been leaving out of the numbers all this time.
 

Hoodaha

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Hockey fans hoping hockey fails. Gotta love it. lol

There are a lot of them out there. It mostly comes from fans north of the border who think that hockey is "Canada's game" or that the NHL should only have some absurdly low number of teams. It also comes from some original 6 fans in the US. Either way, it's sad to see this attitude. The NHL won't work everywhere it tries, and it may take longer some places than others, but there have certainly been some success stories (California).

Even Canadian fans wouldn't watch the tire fire that the Panthers have been since their inception (unless they renamed the teams Leafs and put them in blue and white sweaters).
 

BattleBorn

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They'll get to 10k after a few weeks, and then it'll jump substantially when they add in all of the corporate seats that they've been leaving out of the numbers all this time.

I'm figuring the drive will get to 10,000 and it will go silent for a while. I'd expect that the team will add the corporate stuff if/when we get the conditional franchise with the 12,000 STH requirement the last few conditional franchise award expansions have gotten.
 

Hoodaha

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Um. Selective historic memory?

What about the regional NHL team that was around for a handful of years? The California [Golden] Seals?

Most Seals fans became the first STH for San Jose.


Which is an argument for not abandoning "failed" markets.
 

Jeffrey93

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McDonalds internationally. Coca Cola internationally. There are plenty of businesses that have worked successfully off this business model. Yes, there are differences between the entertainment industry and the restaurant or beverage industries. The idea that you can go somewhere and create demand is not unique to the NHL.

McDonald's expands to places that have no interest in McDonald's? News to me.

I'll go into Tim Hortons and apply for a franchise in Odessa, TX. I'll tell them once it's built...I'll create demand for it. Can I quote you when I tell them that this is how McDonald's operates?
 

BattleBorn

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McDonald's expands to places that have no interest in McDonald's? News to me.

I'll go into Tim Hortons and apply for a franchise in Odessa, TX. I'll tell them once it's built...I'll create demand for it. Can I quote you when I tell them that this is how McDonald's operates?

I don't think the people of Odessa won't know how much they really want good doughnuts and some of that patented Canadian charm until someone opens a Tim Hortons in Odessa.
 
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Jeffrey93

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See, the problem with your argument is that people don't - or, rather, shouldn't - tune into a sporting event to count empty seats in the crowd.

If people are too distracted by empty seats in the arena to watch the on-ice product, then doesn't that say something about the product rather than where it's hosted?

Say you're new to the sport....you're one of those 'new fans' the NHL is creating...but you're in your infancy.

You see the game on your guide and think, "Ahh....I've heard of this sport, I'm going to give it a whirl." So you tune in, as you're trying to figure out the sport and understand what the announcers are yammering on about (US broadcasting for the most part is horrendous)....you see clips of an arena that is more than half-empty.

You think to yourself "Self...you're watching this on TV when less than 10,000 people are bothering to watch it live. Why? Also self, we just watched an Arena Football League game on tv....we know that sport is a gimmick joke of a thing, but there were more people in the arena for that! This hockey thing must be brutal!" *Click*

There is a reason teams paper their arenas....perceived demand creates demand. Nobody is tuning in to see empty seats (I do sometimes for the Coyotes, it's hilarious) but when they see them they see low demand, perceive low demand...and demand gets lower. Why should I care about something that I don't perceive others to care about?
 

The Feckless Puck

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Say you're new to the sport....you're one of those 'new fans' the NHL is creating...but you're in your infancy.

You see the game on your guide and think, "Ahh....I've heard of this sport, I'm going to give it a whirl." So you tune in, as you're trying to figure out the sport and understand what the announcers are yammering on about (US broadcasting for the most part is horrendous)....you see clips of an arena that is more than half-empty.

You think to yourself "Self...you're watching this on TV when less than 10,000 people are bothering to watch it live. Why? Also self, we just watched an Arena Football League game on tv....we know that sport is a gimmick joke of a thing, but there were more people in the arena for that! This hockey thing must be brutal!" *Click*

There is a reason teams paper their arenas....perceived demand creates demand. Nobody is tuning in to see empty seats (I do sometimes for the Coyotes, it's hilarious) but when they see them they see low demand, perceive low demand...and demand gets lower. Why should I care about something that I don't perceive others to care about?

That's not how any of this works. But it's an entertaining anecdote. :)
 

Killion

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Say you're new to the sport....you're one of those 'new fans' the NHL is creating...but you're in your infancy.... Why should I care about something that I don't perceive others to care about?

I cant believe your trotting that old Chestnut out Jeffrey; Rubberneckers huh? Like people driving by an accident, see the victims of the crash walking around fine & dandy so they speed back up & take off. Only slowed down at all because everyone else was doing it. Lemmings.... People know what hockey is. Its a different experience experienced live than it is on the toob for sure. Its a pretty extreme sport. You dont have to have played it to appreciate it BUT, if the product sux, as in no to low scoring, apparent everyones playing scared, that its micro-managed to the point of destroying all creativity & aesthetic value, why bother? And thats the NHL you should be going after. Not the fans... As for "papering arenas'? There are no longer minimums reqd to receive Revenue Sharing proceeds pursuant to ticket sales be they walk-up or Seasons. Viola, Barroway & Le Blanc, why would they even care about creating a false image for the purposes of broadcast when their gunna get whatever they need from NHL Inc anyway?
 

Grudy0

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I always think that point is the one that runs counter to the "expand the game" thing.

If Viola and Co. sees the opportunity to make ridiculous amounts of money selling the team to a Quebec group or figuring out a way to move it up there himself, you've got to think he'd do it if the alternative is waiting it out in Miami hoping the tides turn despite Bettman's desire to grow the league. Sure the powers that be could make it a nightmare, but if the other option is hemorrhaging money in Florida, it's got to be an option worth considering.
Considering?

The last ownership group to sell a team for relocation to greener pastures only received $110 million, with another $60 million going to the League. The prior attempt involved many schemes: putting the franchise in bankruptcy in order to break the arena lease while attempting to sell the team to the highest bidder and ignore League rules in order to allow anyone to own a team as well as relocate at will. And yet that team still hasn't moved.

But back to my original point - the NHL cannot unilaterally force a team to relocate. So when I read that "the NHL should move XXX", it's just a bunch of hogwash. Actually, more like a fairy tale.
 
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