NHL to Atlanta odds just increased significantly

[rea]

A 10,000-word salad from someone who didn't live through what Atlanta Spirit did here firsthand.

Atlanta Spirit deliberately killed the Thrashers because they viewed them as competition for the Hawks, the only team they wanted when they bought the Hawks, Thrashers, and arena all in one package. This. Isn't. Hard.

I stated that already. So tell me why they deserve it any more than any other city that hasn't had a shot? This argument is great, like it hasn't been an issue with other cities. We are literally living through a situation with Phoenix where the league has fought for it and it's been plundered over and over. The debate about ownership killing the thrashers, the League allowed them to buy it knowing this. They could've cut off the sale of the NHL side of it, they could've set in parameters where relocation wasn't allowed as it's done with Phoenix. This. Isn't. Hard.

Using the oh we had shitty ownership isn't an excuse when based on all the past arguments, the league and it's owners are in control and they allowed it. The team was an expansion city which was owned by Turner, one of the richest men in the USA, who at the time owned tons of multimedia, and even this man couldn't sell it.

I understand, as a hockey fan, losing your team is painful, especially when you supported it. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it didn't work. Saying I didn't live through it. Yea I wasn't an Atlanta fan. I'm a hockey fan. I'm 43. I've seen this happen in other places other sports. Vancouver lost the grizzlies in almost the same way. What do you want me to tell you? There are other viable options that haven't repeatedly failed that deserve a shot. But sure my 10,000 word salad changes nothing. You should question more why a league chose to allow your team to go down the route it did, when it has protected other, even less successful franchises from staying. Don't shit on ppl when they see that it just hasn't worked. We didn't pick the owners, we didn't allow the transfers in sales, we didn't vote for tax dollars to subsidize stadium builds in other cities.

Every team has faced hardship, basing it on logic, why keep hitting a spot where for whatever reasons it hasn't worked, and try to throw shit at another spot that's just as deserving?

 

[tucker3434]

I stated that already. So tell me why they deserve it any more than any other city that hasn't had a shot? This argument is great, like it hasn't been an issue with other cities. We are literally living through a situation with Phoenix where the league has fought for it and it's been plundered over and over. The debate about ownership killing the thrashers, the League allowed them to buy it knowing this. They could've cut off the sale of the NHL side of it, they could've set in parameters where relocation wasn't allowed as it's done with Phoenix. This. Isn't. Hard.

Using the oh we had shitty ownership isn't an excuse when based on all the past arguments, the league and it's owners are in control and they allowed it. The team was an expansion city which was owned by Turner, one of the richest men in the USA, who at the time owned tons of multimedia, and even this man couldn't sell it.

I understand, as a hockey fan, losing your team is painful, especially when you supported it. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it didn't work. Saying I didn't live through it. Yea I wasn't an Atlanta fan. I'm a hockey fan. I'm 43. I've seen this happen in other places other sports. Vancouver lost the grizzlies in almost the same way. What do you want me to tell you? There are other viable options that haven't repeatedly failed that deserve a shot. But sure my 10,000 word salad changes nothing. You should question more why a league chose to allow your team to go down the route it did, when it has protected other, even less successful franchises from staying. Don't shit on ppl when they see that it just hasn't worked. We didn't pick the owners, we didn't allow the transfers in sales, we didn't vote for tax dollars to subsidize stadium builds in other cities.

Every team has faced hardship, basing it on logic, why keep hitting a spot where for whatever reasons it hasn't worked, and try to throw shit at another spot that's just as deserving?

“Deserve” doesn’t matter. Money matters. Atlanta has it.

 

[nhlfan79]

I stated that already. So tell me why they deserve it any more than any other city that hasn't had a shot? This argument is great, like it hasn't been an issue with other cities. We are literally living through a situation with Phoenix where the league has fought for it and it's been plundered over and over. The debate about ownership killing the thrashers, the League allowed them to buy it knowing this. They could've cut off the sale of the NHL side of it, they could've set in parameters where relocation wasn't allowed as it's done with Phoenix. This. Isn't. Hard.

The league approved Spirit as owners because they flat out lied to the league during the approval process about their intentions to immediately sell the team for relocation. This is all in sworn court documents that only came out years later when the owners were suing each other (about the valuation of buying out their biggest partner). Not only that, but the NBA approved them as owners first, so it would've been practically impossible for the NHL to have killed the whole deal and thrown two leagues into chaos by rejecting it at the last step. And again, *at that time*, they had no apparent reason to reject them.

While you're at it, go look up David McDavid. He should've been the rightful owner had he not gotten totally hosed by AOL-Time Warner (he won hundreds of millions of dollars in damages after suing for breach of contract to sell the teams to him and wrongfully disclosing his private financial information to Spirit so they could make their sweetheart, eleventh hour bid). Had his deal gone through, as it should have, this wouldn't even be a topic of conversation. The Thrashers would be celebrating their 25th anniversary this coming season.

In truth, the league itself bears a huge measure of blame for their lack of due diligence in vetting Spirit's intentions.

Name one other instance in history where an NHL team was bought by an ownership group that never even wanted it, even from day one? Until you can, Atlanta has no comparison to other markets that "failed." What happened here is literally unprecedented.

 

[southsideIrish]

“Deserve” doesn’t matter. Money matters. Atlanta has it.

This is the bottom line. Atlanta, like many southern cities, is doing well economically. People are moving here. The pop has increased 1.5-1.7 million since the Thrashers left.

The Braves, (granted they're a very good team) put 35-40k in the ballpark 81 times a year. The buildup around the Battery is extremely successful with the bars, restaurants, apartments and so on.

The location of the site is ground zero for where the majority of the former Thrasher ticket base is located. It will work well here.

 

[Team_Spirit]

Pens fans reassured club won't be moving to Atlanta.

 

[Whalers Fan]

The Hockey Guy made a video where we got 4 new teams. Salt Lake City in the West, Houston in the Central, Atlanta in the Metro, and Quebec City in the Atlantic. I would support that idea if that's how it came about.

And the league will still insist on a schedule where every team has to play every other team at least twice. With 36 teams, it should be time to abandon that idea.

 

[BB79]

And the league will still insist on a schedule where every team has to play every other team at least twice. With 36 teams, it should be time to abandon that idea.

They better abandon the idea. In fact I want 8-10 games between other teams in my division. 4-5 home, 4-5 road. Fill the rest with the other division in the conference. There's zero reason to play the other conference in the regular season. If they don't I'm done with this BS

 

[Ted Hoffman]

So what you are saying, is that the 2nd time around, in the 7th biggest tv market in the US, originally being bought by Turner who owns major network, with sliding attendance and deciding to wash their hands of team to a shitty local group, which was agreed and allowed to by this non dictatorship league, agreed on that stance, but yet were allowed to relocate, somehow deserves shots over other markets now?

When you can't even get this part right, I'm guessing the rest of your voluminous post is similarly error-prone and I don't have all year to make all the necessary corrections.

Maybe go back and reacquaint yourself with why AOL/Time Warner decided to divest itself of all sports franchises, not just the "sliding attendance" ones, and then do some moderately light reading on Atlanta Spirit and the 4+ year legal fight that ensued that saw majority owner Steve Belkin (who wanted the Thrashers) eventually shoved out while interim lead Bruce Levinson (who didn't want the Thrashers) actively manage the team to make it not attractive to fans so that he could both sell the team and get it moved out of Atlanta in favor of the NBA team which was considered more profitable, albeit not attracting enough suburban white people - a remark that eventually forced Levinson and the rest of ASG to have to sell the team).

 

[Bond]

This is just the first step to getting a team in Markham

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I think the NFL would absolutely scoff at $3B for an expansion team.

Damn, just looked at valuations. You're right, it would have to be $6-7 billion. Maybe more.

The point still being: if someone without a team waved a big enough check at the NFL, what about geography / talent dilution / competitive balance / every other reason offered for why the NHL shouldn't expand would take a hike.

 

[SomeDude]

The NHL has adopted the Dollar General growth method. There will be an NHL team on every block within 6 years.

 

[dj4aces]

This is just the first step to getting a team in Markham

TOR would nix that quicker than you can inhale. But I suppose there's no real limits on what the imagination can conjure up.

Damn, just looked at valuations. You're right, it would have to be $6-7 billion. Maybe more.

The point still being: if someone without a team waved a big enough check at the NFL, what about geography / talent dilution / competitive balance / every other reason offered for why the NHL shouldn't expand would take a hike.

I don't think you're wrong here in this assessment. The idea of those "concerns" are fans trying to create exclusion where the only exclusion there is would be whether a prospective team owner could afford to buy a franchise, build a stadium, drum up corporate sponsors, etc. There's a lot of that in expansion talk in general, and the Atlanta threads specifically.

The NHL has adopted the Dollar General growth method. There will be an NHL team on every block within 6 years.

Fun fact: Former US Senator David Perdue (R-GA) was once CEO of Dollar General. Maybe you cracked the code!

 

[VivaLasVegas]

I stated that already. So tell me why they deserve it any more than any other city that hasn't had a shot? This argument is great, like it hasn't been an issue with other cities. We are literally living through a situation with Phoenix where the league has fought for it and it's been plundered over and over. The debate about ownership killing the thrashers, the League allowed them to buy it knowing this. They could've cut off the sale of the NHL side of it, they could've set in parameters where relocation wasn't allowed as it's done with Phoenix. This. Isn't. Hard.

Using the oh we had shitty ownership isn't an excuse when based on all the past arguments, the league and it's owners are in control and they allowed it. The team was an expansion city which was owned by Turner, one of the richest men in the USA, who at the time owned tons of multimedia, and even this man couldn't sell it.

I understand, as a hockey fan, losing your team is painful, especially when you supported it. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it didn't work. Saying I didn't live through it. Yea I wasn't an Atlanta fan. I'm a hockey fan. I'm 43. I've seen this happen in other places other sports. Vancouver lost the grizzlies in almost the same way. What do you want me to tell you? There are other viable options that haven't repeatedly failed that deserve a shot. But sure my 10,000 word salad changes nothing. You should question more why a league chose to allow your team to go down the route it did, when it has protected other, even less successful franchises from staying. Don't shit on ppl when they see that it just hasn't worked. We didn't pick the owners, we didn't allow the transfers in sales, we didn't vote for tax dollars to subsidize stadium builds in other cities.

Every team has faced hardship, basing it on logic, why keep hitting a spot where for whatever reasons it hasn't worked, and try to throw shit at another spot that's just as deserving?

The NHL does not pick cities for expansion. Instead, owner groups with arena deals and a $1 billion submit an application from wherever they are located. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

 

[Bradely]

As he should. Four of the top 10 teams for attendance are from the southern US and a 5th has been 100% sold out.

Never said they were not doing right... but a 3 rd time in Atlanta is a bit funny IMO. I am already asking myself if I will witness the return of Atlanta a fourth time during my living ....

On the above, check the tickets price (Vegas being the exception)......... you will put the above into perspective.

And Arizona has their arena full....... 5000 folks!

 

[AintLifeGrand]

A 10,000-word salad from someone who didn't live through what Atlanta Spirit did here firsthand.

Atlanta Spirit deliberately killed the Thrashers because they viewed them as competition for the Hawks, the only team they wanted when they bought the Hawks, Thrashers, and arena all in one package. This. Isn't. Hard.

to add to this, the Thrashers were also outdrawing and categorically more popular than the Hawks throughout most of their history

 

[VivaLasVegas]

to add to this, the Thrashers were also outdrawing and categorically more popular than the Hawks throughout most of their history

Ironically, Alex Meruelo ended up buying the Coyotes because he failed in his attempt to buy the Hawks. Long backstory which I will spare you.

Alex Meruelo terminates plan to buy NBA's Atlanta Hawks

 

[VainGretzky]

NHL and Atlanta again

 

[rojac]

A lot of money to be made by the owners and league in expanding by 4 more teams, which will probably happen over the coming years. That means 70 games out of 82 will be home and home with each team team playing every other team at least twice a season. Good bye to any semblance of regular season rivalries.

I have nothing against Atlanta. I do have a problem with the 4th place league of the major sports in America becoming diluted with a ridiculous number of teams for such a niche sport in the country with the vast majority of teams. Also, there is only so much star talent as is. Not a fan of spreading that talent thinner and thinner.

I suspect that expansion will probably force a change to the home and away opposite conference scheduling -- something like this for 36 teams:

Opposite conference - 1 division - 2 games each - 18 games
Opposite conference - other division - 1 game each - 9 games
Same comference - other division - 2 games each - 18 games

That's 45 out-of-division games, leaving 37 divisional games - probably 4 games against 3 of them and 5 games against the other 5.

 

[TheLegend]

This is so stupid. Another money pit funded by successful teams gate revenues.

Quebec would be a better market for two reasons.

1) bigger hockey market. Atlanta could be 10M for all I care, still would be a smaller hockey market. Quebec is a bit larger then the Peg if you account for nearby regions outside the metro who’ll be ticket buyers for sure.

2) TV deal. The Canadian TV deal is far, far larger then the US one on a per team basis. Last time around, Quebecor overpaid massively in the hope that a team was coming. The French part of the Canadian deal will be smaller then it would have.been next time around. I guarantee you it’s a bigger impact then whatever impact teams like Phoenix, Atlanta, other have on US tv deal.

Overall Bettman was right about betting on the YS, but he’s overdone it with teams like Phoenix and Florida

Well then instead of overpaying for a TV deal, Quebecor should have paid the $500 million expansion fee and they would have come in with Seattle.

Hell they could do it now…. but the price just keeps going up and all we’re hearing is a lot of blustering.

 

[New Jersey Devil]

I'm happy for the fans who lost their team, but I really hope there's a better plan to make this work this time.

I suppose the more beneficial expansion drafts rules that Vegas and Seattle got compared to past teams will help. Having a franchise start out in the basement for years is not an easy way to build a fan base.

You're happy for the fans who lost their team? Why?

 

[GreenHornet]

The league approved Spirit as owners because they flat out lied to the league during the approval process about their intentions to immediately sell the team for relocation. This is all in sworn court documents that only came out years later when the owners were suing each other (about the valuation of buying out their biggest partner). Not only that, but the NBA approved them as owners first, so it would've been practically impossible for the NHL to have killed the whole deal and thrown two leagues into chaos by rejecting it at the last step. And again, *at that time*, they had no apparent reason to reject them.

While you're at it, go look up David McDavid. He should've been the rightful owner had he not gotten totally hosed by AOL-Time Warner (he won hundreds of millions of dollars in damages after suing for breach of contract to sell the teams to him and wrongfully disclosing his private financial information to Spirit so they could make their sweetheart, eleventh hour bid). Had his deal gone through, as it should have, this wouldn't even be a topic of conversation. The Thrashers would be celebrating their 25th anniversary this coming season.

In truth, the league itself bears a huge measure of blame for their lack of due diligence in vetting Spirit's intentions.

Name one other instance in history where an NHL team was bought by an ownership group that never even wanted it, even from day one? Until you can, Atlanta has no comparison to other markets that "failed." What happened here is literally unprecedented.

This brings up something that's been on my mind for a while.

Some posters (including several who I know are pro-NHL Atlanta v3.0) have expressed concerns about the potential ownership group, which we now know will be headed up The Gathering developer Vernon Krause and his company Krause Sports and Entertainment. There have been rumors that Waffle House chairman Joe Rogers Jr. may also be involved, which would probably alleviate some of those fears, though again, these are only rumors at this stage.

Anyway, no matter what the proposed ownership group ends up looking like, there's one thing I'm quite certain of. No matter what anyone thinks of Gary Bettman (and/or Bill Daly and/or the NHL BoG), I'd like to think they're all smart enough to have learned from the Atlanta $pirit Septocluster ™ fiasco, and that any potential ownership group for any franchise since then has/will be much more thoroughly vetted.

In fact, considering that Krause has been the face of the bid for NHL Atlanta v3.0 since the Buccigross Twitter bomb dropped about 10 months ago, I have to think that Bettman, Daly and more than one member of the BoG have been putting him under a microscope ever since (and probably before then, since he almost certainly had contact with elements within the NHL before his bid became public).

 

[dj4aces]

This brings up something that's been on my mind for a while.

Some posters (including several who I know are pro-NHL Atlanta v3.0) have expressed concerns about the potential ownership group, which we now know will be headed up The Gathering developer Vernon Krause and his company Krause Sports and Entertainment. There have been rumors that Waffle House chairman Joe Rogers Jr. may also be involved, which would probably alleviate some of those fears, though again, these are only rumors at this stage.

Anyway, no matter what the proposed ownership group ends up looking like, there's one thing I'm quite certain of. No matter what anyone thinks of Gary Bettman (and/or Bill Daly and/or the NHL BoG), I'd like to think they're all smart enough to have learned from the Atlanta $pirit Septocluster ™ fiasco, and that any potential ownership group for any franchise since then has/will be much more thoroughly vetted.

In fact, considering that Krause has been the face of the bid for NHL Atlanta v3.0 since the Buccigross Twitter bomb dropped about 10 months ago, I have to think that Bettman, Daly and more than one member of the BoG have been putting him under a microscope ever since (and probably before then, since he almost certainly had contact with elements within the NHL before his bid became public).

1. If the Waffle House guy is involved in KS&E, it certainly does alleviate the bulk of my concerns ... namely, having the wherewithal to build an arena, purchase a franchise, and weather whatever early losses there might be. I don't expect the team to turn a profit immediately, but if the team starts off like Vegas and Seattle has in these early years, that profit will come.

2. I'm betting the league learned from the horror show that was Atlanta Spirit LLC. In fact, I'd put money on it. I believe (but have no evidence to support the belief) the league has a far more robust vetting process, and I'm also willing to bet any known and serious ownership groups have had some preliminary vetting done by the league's front office and BoG. It's smart business for them to know who they're getting into bed with, after all. In that way, I don't think they really knew who Atlanta Spirit was until after the ownership transfer was approved by both leagues and the sale finalized.

 

[HTFN]

Though you are right, my bad, the difference in cost of team or arenas are huge.

Forbes values the Thrashers at $135 million in 2011. (They sold for 170 million I believe?)

Now you can't buy a team for less than 750-a billion.

So the cost of a franchise has gone up like 700% or more.

Back then, there were plenty of arenas being built for a few hundred million.

Now it costs twice as much, if not 3 times as much. World class arenas are costing a billion or more.

I guess I'm asking if no one was stepping up to buy the trashers and keep them around for 500 million for team plus arena a little over a decade ago, why is there suddenly so much interest at a cost of almost 2 billion?

I'm so confused....

Let's assume you're right and the Thrashers sold for 170m... why are you using applied hindsight to conclude that some nebulous "somebody else" should have just bought the Thrashers for like 2.5x the selling price just to prove a point?

Why would anybody pay that far above market price, at any time? You're wondering why the number has spiked like it's related to Atlanta's demand for hockey and not expansion cost/demand in the NHL after having done it twice in the span of this 2011-2024 range we've set... these people still got this money doing business and they're not generally in the habit of paying double what they need to like that proves they have foresight.

 

[jbeck5]

I'm so confused....

Let's assume you're right and the Thrashers sold for 170m... why are you using applied hindsight to conclude that some nebulous "somebody else" should have just bought the Thrashers for like 2.5x the selling price just to prove a point?

Why would anybody pay that far above market price, at any time? You're wondering why the number has spiked like it's related to Atlanta's demand for hockey and not expansion cost/demand in the NHL after having done it twice in the span of this 2011-2024 range we've set... these people still got this money doing business and they're not generally in the habit of paying double what they need to like that proves they have foresight.

Huh? I wasn't asking why didn't someone pay way more for the trashers back then.

I was asking why wasn't there someone willing to pay that to keep them in Atlanta back then when now someone will pay 5-10 times the amount to have them in Atlanta.

 

[HTFN]

Huh? I wasn't asking why didn't someone pay way more for the trashers back then.

I was asking why wasn't there someone willing to pay that to keep them in Atlanta back then when now someone will pay 5-10 times the amount to have them in Atlanta.

You literally said "why didn't someone just pay like 500m to keep them there?"

If you can't figure out why the price has changed it's because you're just intentionally forgetting about other expansion teams and costs associated.