League News: NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) - COVID Post-Season Edition

[g00n]

Precisely this. Caps don't have that kind of draft record in those type of players. Lightning blow most teams out of the water with home grown picks and lower round gems.

And...has anyone considered maybe part of that is the fact that they have a top notch coach/staff to develop that talent?

What could Cooper have done with Caps draft picks over the last 8 or so years? How many coaches and systems have Caps draftees been through?

 

[g00n]

Lightning coach Jon Cooper is a man with a plan

You can draft NHL quality talent but you also have to develop it. A 3rd or 4th rounder that doesn't pan out in one org might have done better in another.

 

[Hivemind]

Precisely this. Caps don't have that kind of draft record in those type of players. Lightning blow most teams out of the water with home grown picks and lower round gems.

It's ridiculous impressive to consider that the only have two of their 1st round picks in their system since the Hedman draft all the way back in 2009 - Andrei Vasilevskiy (19th 2012) and Cal Foote (14th 2017). Every other 1st rounder has been traded, before or after being draft. Yet they still have an incredibly rich talent pool of home grown talent. It's almost as if that 2nd round and beyond drafting that some folks around here claimed was unachievable for a perennial playoff team is important. Yet Tampa finds a way to draft and develop that talent...

Killorn (3rd Rd 2007), Kucherov (2nd Rd 2011), Palat (7th Rd 2011), Paquette* (4th Rd 2012), Point (3rd Rd 2014), Cirelli (3rd Rd 2015), Joseph (4th Rd 2015), Colton (4th Rd 2016) - All part of their Cup runs. And that's not even counting their 2nd and beyond picks now on other teams (such as our old friends Gudas and Panik).

*Part of 2020 Lightning but not 2021

 

[twabby]

Yes, I understand him. Thank you. But I disagree with the full premise: 1. that the Caps were on the right track and abandoned it. and 2. that Tampa 100% stayed the course. and 3. that 1 & 2 are the only differences/main factors

Tampa did stay the course though. They never really shifted organizational focus like the Capitals did. They made improvements, sure, but they never really looked at their recent disappointments and said they need to completely change what they were doing. They resisted making rash decisions and instead made patient, calculated moves.

No doubt Washington needed roster improvements, most notably in goal, at 2C, and a few depth defensive pieces. But philosophically and tactically what they were doing was successful. If anything they should have focused more on scoring and creating offense, rather than focusing on locking it down. They chose poorly.

 

[txpd]

Nobody has talent like Tampa. Everyone would like to be the 90s redwings, or avalanche, today’s Tampa etc.. shoot a few years ago everyone wanted all our talent. It’s hard to do.

Nobody is over the salary cap like Tampa either. Lets project them out to what they might be after having to join the rest of the teams under the cap

 

[g00n]

Tampa did stay the course though. They never really shifted organizational focus like the Capitals did. They made improvements, sure, but they never really looked at their recent disappointments and said they need to completely change what they were doing. They resisted making rash decisions and instead made patient, calculated moves.

No doubt Washington needed roster improvements, most notably in goal, at 2C, and a few depth defensive pieces. But philosophically and tactically what they were doing was successful. If anything they should have focused more on scoring and creating offense, rather than focusing on locking it down. They chose poorly.

From 2010-11 season to 2013-14 season Caps were 10th in the league in Regular season GF/G (2.75). If you take out 2010-11 they were 8th. Take out another year and they're 6th. So they IMPROVED offensively relative to the rest of the league to 2.85 GF/G across the period of 2012 to 2014.

But in the playoffs over that same 4 year period they were 25th, next to last (2.13). By the time you get to 2012-2014 two year span they were dead last and an abysmal 1.71 GF/G in the playoffs.

Remember the GF/G I posted earlier? What were the Cup winning teams scoring per game back then? About the same as the Caps regular season.

The problem was not general lack of offense, it was failing to show up offensively in the playoffs.

 

[Hivemind]

Nobody is over the salary cap like Tampa either. Lets project them out to what they might be after having to join the rest of the teams under the cap

Washington finished 2021 nearly $4M over the cap. Not nearly as excessive as Tampa (and I have made points about that repeatedly in this thread and elsewhere), but you might want to be careful about throwing stones here.

 

[txpd]

Tampa did stay the course though. They never really shifted organizational focus like the Capitals did. They made improvements, sure, but they never really looked at their recent disappointments and said they need to completely change what they were doing. They resisted making rash decisions and instead made patient, calculated moves.

No doubt Washington needed roster improvements, most notably in goal, at 2C, and a few depth defensive pieces. But philosophically and tactically what they were doing was successful. If anything they should have focused more on scoring and creating offense, rather than focusing on locking it down. They chose poorly.

This is not correct. The Caps needed way more than a few depth defensive pieces. Their primary shutdown defenseman was Tom Poti and they had Brian Pothier in their top 4. Are you forgetting this? They went thru that era with guys like Morrisonn and Jurcina as primary players. In 2009-2010 by toi, their top 6 defensemen were Green, Poti, Schultz, Pothier, Morrisonn, and Jurcina. That is hideous.

Maybe I am forgetting but I dont recall where they made wild changes in their forward core. What I do remember was in Oates first season the Caps defense was Green, and a young Carlson and Alzner. Below them was John Erskine, Jack Hillen and Steve Oleksy. Erskine, Hillen and Oleksy were barely NHL level players. Alzner and Carlson had barely 200 nhl games.

That team needed defensemen. Again, this is why MacLellan's first moves were Orpik and Niskanen

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Yup, those teams needed legit D who could be difference-makers in their own zone when it mattered….(and some more timely scoring).

 

[txpd]

Washington finished 2021 nearly $4M over the cap. Not nearly as excessive as Tampa (and I have made points about that repeatedly in this thread and elsewhere), but you might want to be careful about throwing stones here.

The Caps being over the cap is what the current rules are designed for. That a team tight on the cap would have enough players available to ice a team. It was not at all meant for what the Lightning did with it.

In 1994 Roger Penske found a hole in the Indy 500 engine rules and exploited it. His cars won the pole and in the race they easily lapped the field. They won fair and square but that loophole was closed immediately after word because Penske stunk up the show. Tampa Bay embarrassed the league and won. Good for them

 

[Hivemind]

txpd's stance on Erskine in 2021 is vastly different than his stance on Erskine back in the day

 

[max21]

Tampa is obviously a great drafting team but it’s safe to say Washington is top 5 no?

 

[Hivemind]

Tampa is obviously a great drafting team but it’s safe to say Washington is top 5 no?

From the mid-00s to the mid-10s, definitely. The past 5-6 years? It gets far more sketchy there.

And even during Washington's drafting peak, the Caps were basically just killing it with their late 1st round picks. Their efficiency after the 1st round leaves a lot to be desired.

It should also be noted that player development may be a vital factor here, but it's pretty much impossible to separate drafting and development in many cases.

 

[txpd]

txpd's stance on Erskine in 2021 is vastly different than his stance on Erskine back in the day

Ah, I thought John Erskine was a legit top 4 defenseman? Really? Wow. I was an idiot. 3rd pair. Fine. Top 4? Seriously. I didnt know anything about hockey

 

[Dr John Carlson]

I remember Erskine scoring a goal against Carey Price once where the puck was travelling from the blue line at a speed of about three miles an hour. I wonder if Price was thinking back to that goal while playing in the Cup finals.

 

[IafrateOvie34]

And...has anyone considered maybe part of that is the fact that they have a top notch coach/staff to develop that talent?

What could Cooper have done with Caps draft picks over the last 8 or so years? How many coaches and systems have Caps draftees been through?

Not sure. Cooper was getting blasted until a few years ago. One thing for sure is TB has done well with later draft picks. Cooper seems like a solid guy and likeable. It just seems like yesterday that TB was in disarray after their early 2000s success. They fixed their stuff internally and played patient while getting lucky with first rounders. Yzerman helped them a ton too. TB don't win these cups without Sergachev. I'm in no way saying the Caps suck at drafting, but it's crazy how good TB has done.

 

[IafrateOvie34]

It's ridiculous impressive to consider that the only have two of their 1st round picks in their system since the Hedman draft all the way back in 2009 - Andrei Vasilevskiy (19th 2012) and Cal Foote (14th 2017). Every other 1st rounder has been traded, before or after being draft. Yet they still have an incredibly rich talent pool of home grown talent. It's almost as if that 2nd round and beyond drafting that some folks around here claimed was unachievable for a perennial playoff team is important. Yet Tampa finds a way to draft and develop that talent...

Killorn (3rd Rd 2007), Kucherov (2nd Rd 2011), Palat (7th Rd 2011), Paquette* (4th Rd 2012), Point (3rd Rd 2014), Cirelli (3rd Rd 2015), Joseph (4th Rd 2015), Colton (4th Rd 2016) - All part of their Cup runs. And that's not even counting their 2nd and beyond picks now on other teams (such as our old friends Gudas and Panik).

*Part of 2020 Lightning but not 2021

Indeed and many of those guys gave us fits in the past like Killorn. Every time the Caps played TB, I expected Killorn to score a goal. I think it's safe to agree many of us hope for a Point mid draft. It's really nice when 3rd and 4th round picks contribute to GWG in the Finals or the series clincher. Palat has really done well for them as a 7th rounder and a great home grown role player. My only beef with TB is they were old rivals and some of it is jealousy. It made 2018 sweeter when we beat them in the ECF though for me. They had owned us in the playoffs prior and everyone outside our board had us written off.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Wasn’t Cooper about as close as Barry to getting canned at one point?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Tampa is obviously a great drafting team but it’s safe to say Washington is top 5 no?

I’d be surprised if the numbers show that….

 

[twabby]

This is not correct. The Caps needed way more than a few depth defensive pieces. Their primary shutdown defenseman was Tom Poti and they had Brian Pothier in their top 4. Are you forgetting this? They went thru that era with guys like Morrisonn and Jurcina as primary players. In 2009-2010 by toi, their top 6 defensemen were Green, Poti, Schultz, Pothier, Morrisonn, and Jurcina. That is hideous.

Maybe I am forgetting but I dont recall where they made wild changes in their forward core. What I do remember was in Oates first season the Caps defense was Green, and a young Carlson and Alzner. Below them was John Erskine, Jack Hillen and Steve Oleksy. Erskine, Hillen and Oleksy were barely NHL level players. Alzner and Carlson had barely 200 nhl games.

That team needed defensemen. Again, this is why MacLellan's first moves were Orpik and Niskanen

You’re right, they probably could have used at least one more top 4 defenseman and probably two. I think they should have done their best to acquire those pieces. So my characterization of them needing a few depth pieces on D is inaccurate. Point conceded.

Still I think they would have been better served to address these roster deficiencies rather than completely abandoning their core strengths and concluding the system itself was the failure.

 

[Melkor]

Tampa is obviously a great drafting team but it’s safe to say Washington is top 5 no?

In what timespan? I'd argue they're not even in the upper half of the rankings, let alone top-5.

 

[Calicaps]

Indeed and many of those guys gave us fits in the past like Killorn. Every time the Caps played TB, I expected Killorn to score a goal. I think it's safe to agree many of us hope for a Point mid draft. It's really nice when 3rd and 4th round picks contribute to GWG in the Finals or the series clincher. Palat has really done well for them as a 7th rounder and a great home grown role player. My only beef with TB is they were old rivals and some of it is jealousy. It made 2018 sweeter when we beat them in the ECF though for me. They had owned us in the playoffs prior and everyone outside our board had us written off.

Generally agree except that they have only been able to keep all their talent by circumventing the CBA.

 

[trick9]

I wonder who Tampa will lose in the off-season... i know some people on the mains think they will need to blow it up but i don't think so.

 

[Langway]

I wonder who Tampa will lose in the off-season... i know some people on the mains think they will need to blow it up but i don't think so.

Cernak seems like the toughest potential loss to Seattle unless they can work something out. Coleman & Goodrow cash in elsewhere in UFA you'd figure and then they probably lose at least one pricier top nine forward (if not two). But they'll be able to attract players that want to win on short-term value deals and have shown they can develop out of the blue with Colton/Verhaeghe/Marchessault. Maybe ABB becomes their next one and I don't doubt they find other means to make it work. It'll be a challenge. Maybe they could deal Stamkos to replenish the pipeline but I don't think they're there yet. They'll manage.

 

[max21]

In what timespan? I'd argue they're not even in the upper half of the rankings, let alone top-5.

06-15 we didn’t miss much on our 1st rounders