League News: NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) - 2021-2 Regular Season Edition, Vol. 2
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Hivemind
We're Touched
Maybe they used to favor high skilled upside in the draft, but not so much lately. Hendrix Lapierre is really their only skill-first player they've drafted in a high round since Vrana in 2014. Otherwise it's been D and two-way players. Their 2nd+ rounds have dipped heavily into big bodied WHL and NCAA/USHL character/grinder players like Leason, Protas, Clark (okay he's OHL), Sutter, Florchuk, Malenstyn, Hughes, and Sanford. They very seldomly go for the faster or more agility-based players over the guys who could pan out into power forwards or grinders, especially when it comes to forwards.
Brenden Dillon
Jakub Vrana
Richard Panik
Daniel Sprong
Jonas Siegenthaler
Christian Djoos
Burky
Niskanen
Madison Bowey
Grubauer
Orpik
John Albert
Marcus Johansson
Joe Cannata
Brad Malone
Zach Sanford
Connor Carrick
Brooks Laich
Chris Brown
Troy Brouwer
Phoenix Copley
Jack Hillen
Edward Pasquale
Jaro Halak
Jaynen Rissing
Michal Neuvirth
Rusty Klesla
Martin Erat
John Mitchell
Mathieu Perreault
Not sure how complete this list is but these are the players traded away from the Caps going back to Sep 29 2013. Washington Capitals Trade History - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
The only ones that really became "better" with other teams are Siegenthaler, Burakovsky and maybe Vrana but he hasn't been significantly better than Mantha so. Maybe Grubauer but he was pretty good here too
Besides Capfriendly, nhltradetracker.com is pretty good, it gives trade history by team, GM, player, and year.
Cheers.
g00n
Retired Global Mod
- Nov 22, 2007
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Right. Good list. Thanks.
And I haven't watched Siegenthaler with the Devs but is he that much better than he was with DC? The stats are still similar and he doesn't even have a full season under his belt there, yet.
So this notion that we need to follow traded players around to track their every G or A in order to judge how badly our FO has screwed up YET AGAIN is a fool's errand, and created mostly from confirmation bias.
Another loss for Carolina last night. Caught some of it and they dominated Dallas but couldn't pull out the W.
hb13xchamps
Registered User
Oshie is a prime example. Was very solid in St. Louis and was blamed for playoff woes for the Blues. We traded Copley and Brouwer for him. Brouwer’s career went downhill and Oshie thrived and has played his best years in DC. All teams have trades where they give up on a player who can thrive in a new environment.
Langway
In den Wolken
- Jul 7, 2006
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He's third in TOI for them and been their best defender. It happens. Again, to be charitable they do draft good players. But there are beginning to be an alarming amount of ones that got away and it does make you wonder about utilization and assessment.
Unlike Oshie, who was traded at 29, these are predominantly younger players. Not all. Niskanen did rebound in Philadelphia, for example. Mainly they're younger players who they weren't prepared to give raises to or moved to restructure but not all. Stephenson & Siegenthaler were relatively cheap and given the slight returns are the most regrettable. There's an impatience to some of these moves that calls into question their judgement in terms of process and assessment vs. experience. Their tendency toward veterans is understandable with all-in approach but they take it to extremes what with Laviolette's rhythm tactic for shortening the bench and just generally not really holding everyone accountable despite a supposedly all-in, win-now type approach.
g00n
Retired Global Mod
- Nov 22, 2007
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Again, look at the draft breakdown I did from 2014. Look at that list of traded players since 2013. We're talking about MAYBE two players in almost 10 years, compared to how many draft and trade and development failures on other teams?
You follow enough league-wide prospects to understand this. I don't think there's justification for broad brush indictments about proces/assessment/experience etc. based on just two cases in all that time.
JS was in a defensive log-jam and Chara promised some solid play on the back line. JS is still only a year into his NJ stint so jury is still out. I think most here wanted to see what Chara could provide, yes?
Stephenson was a cap casualty that looks like a bad move in hindsight but there was no indication he was going to become .7+ pt/g player when he was in DC and putting up half as many points. Did you see that in him? Nobody here did.
I don't think this constitutes "alarming" conditions.
CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
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It’s alarming if you’re a fan with too much time on your hands (like us all) lol…
This is really just standard teeth gnashing….
If they’re not “winning Cups”…..the team can’t silence this type of talk…it is what it is.
I’ll be alarmed when someone shows me a clear gulf between us and the rest of the NHL.
Looking at the players we’re discussing, I’d still make those moves again if the situations were all the same today.
This is really just standard teeth gnashing….
If they’re not “winning Cups”…..the team can’t silence this type of talk…it is what it is.
I’ll be alarmed when someone shows me a clear gulf between us and the rest of the NHL.
Looking at the players we’re discussing, I’d still make those moves again if the situations were all the same today.
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Why is Stephenson not on this list? I would wager that he is doing better than any other player on that list.
Hivemind
We're Touched
Your list is missing Stephenson, who improved massively after leaving Washington. Perreault also realized his potential after leaving DC. Sanford had a couple years in St Louis where he looked promising, but ultimately stalled/regressed into what looks like a fringe player (although the book isn't closed on his career yet). Niskanen also rebounded after leaving DC, but that doesn't really fit the scope of this conversation.
Most of the names on your list are either older players or guys who weren't in the NHL. The younger NHL assets that the Capitals have traded away have a pretty good success rate elsewhere. Not 100% (*cough Bowey cough*), but there's a notable trend of younger forwards elevating their game when provided opportunities the Capitals would not give them.
Langway
In den Wolken
- Jul 7, 2006
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You'd still get rid of Stephenson & Siegenthaler? Vrana & Burakovsky are whatever because of the salary cap but the other two I'd argue, esp. in hindsight, were avoidable. They can add a TVR or a Larsson but to me it's always better to retain homegrown players. It's better for team culture if they can manage keeping these various developmental situations on track. They've been resourceful in finding depth replacements whether it's Connolly, DSP, Sheary and others but the culture takes a bit of a hit. It also sends a poor message to younger players in terms of an equal playing field when they often get passed over largely due to inexperience.
It's the main drawback of a win-now mentality that hasn't done much winning when it's mattered since 2018. Of course it opens them right up to a lot of second-guessing. It's fair to wonder if they need to take many more steps back and reevaluate a lot of areas and how they operate. Laviolette has only made that approach more extreme and it makes it hard to imagine a brighter future for them when they are so impatient. You'd think after the Cup win it would be the opposite. The pressure altogether changed after that and yet it seems like they didn't learn very much from that success.
CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
- 66,399
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if we rewound time and the situations were the same with our roster and their development, absolutely……they were the right moves at the time IMO.
NOW….if I had a crystal ball, I would have held onto Stephenson…….but it would likely still be a fools errand because he would NOT be gifted top line time in DC for multiple seasons as he became a finished product.
I was a big Siege supporter since draft, but it was a numbers game at the time of the move and he’s was a middling bottom pair guy with a good defensive game.
hb13xchamps
Registered User
Who is Siegenthaler replacing right now on the team? Fehervary has had his struggles, but I’m taking Fever 10/10 times over Siegs. Orlov is obvious. I guess you could have not signed Schultz, shifted TVR to RD, and had a Siegs-TVR pairing that could get sheltered minutes.
As others said, it was a numbers game. The potential of Fehervary and eventually maybe Alexeyev, combined with the other veteran players made Siegs expendable. Plus, he asked to be dealt IIRC. He’s now in an environment where there’s zero pressure to contend for a SC right away, there’s very minimal media because of the Rangers and Islanders being so close and he gets very limited exposure. If he’s moved to a contender where there’s pressure again, are we having the same conversation? I was never a huge Siegs fan. Big body that plays softer than he should who is solid in his own end. He handled the puck poorly and his decision making was slow. Good for him for finding a place he can thrive
As others said, it was a numbers game. The potential of Fehervary and eventually maybe Alexeyev, combined with the other veteran players made Siegs expendable. Plus, he asked to be dealt IIRC. He’s now in an environment where there’s zero pressure to contend for a SC right away, there’s very minimal media because of the Rangers and Islanders being so close and he gets very limited exposure. If he’s moved to a contender where there’s pressure again, are we having the same conversation? I was never a huge Siegs fan. Big body that plays softer than he should who is solid in his own end. He handled the puck poorly and his decision making was slow. Good for him for finding a place he can thrive
Not sure about Siegs but from what i hear he has some of the best defensive metrics in the league now.
And i agree re fools errand
Yeah you're right about Stephenson not being on there. And sure, he has improved in Vegas due to opportunity but he wouldn't have displaced Kuzy or Bäckström here so he would not have gotten the same ice i would assume.
g00n
Retired Global Mod
- Nov 22, 2007
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And again NOBODY saw him doubling his production away from DC. Nobody. The only CS fanboi here lauded him for his DEFENSE.
So still, we have maybe 1-3 players in around 10 years to wring our hands over "what could have been", when we don't even know if they'd have developed here the same way they did with other orgs....not to mention the cap/roster crunches we faced as a result of loading up to win the Cup.
Is anyone factoring that into the equation? Would you rather have a Cup, or Siegs and Stephenson back?
twabby
Registered User
- Mar 9, 2010
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I'm not really upset over Stephenson because he showed nothing in DC and honestly I don't see him as a strong player in Vegas. IMO he's still very much a product of his elite wingers in Vegas. It's no surprise that he's struggled when Stone and/or Pacioretty have been out of the lineup for Vegas this year. I don't think he's a bad player, but he probably wouldn't be doing much more than, say, Lars Eller would be doing right now.
The Mantha trade as of now also looks good. I said it before that it'll ultimately be judged on Mantha's playoff performance because aside from the friction between Vrana and Laviolette, Vrana's lack of playoff production was a big reason he was shipped out. If Mantha doesn't perform then sending the first round pick to acquire him looks bad.
The Mantha trade as of now also looks good. I said it before that it'll ultimately be judged on Mantha's playoff performance because aside from the friction between Vrana and Laviolette, Vrana's lack of playoff production was a big reason he was shipped out. If Mantha doesn't perform then sending the first round pick to acquire him looks bad.
Hivemind
We're Touched
His trade request and the initial numbers game was all predicated by the signing of Zdeno Chara. If Chara's not here last year, Siegs gets a much more regular spot. If he had been pushed out by Fehervary, Alexeyev, or even Johansen jumping him it would probably be a more acceptable trade. But he was pushed out by the Caps signing a veteran D that they didn't really need, and one that was costing them by season's end. Which just fits the narrative established by so many other veteran over youth moves the team has made post-2018.
I'm also not the biggest Siegenthaler fan in the world, but we could do a lot worse than a Siegs-TVR 3rd pairing.
Any of these trades are defensible individually. As single trades, they can be justified. It's what happens when you look at them in aggregate and the net effect it has had on roster construction that you have to start to question the decision making processes behind these trades.
As long as we are doing look back periods it was basically the 2019 offseason that boned us. Signing both Panik and Hagelin to 4 year deals was so questionable when we already had in house options to go with. Combined, they accounted for $5.5 million of the cap. Burakovsky was traded and signed a one year $3.25 million deal and Stephenson started the year but was making a very manageable $1.05 million. So really the decision to replace those two with older vets was a really questionable move. Part of what made the Vrana/Mantha deal so pricey was dumping the Panik contract. And then choosing to commit $8 mil between Schultz and Dillon within a matter of days in October 2020 was pretty meh too. Alongside giving a roster spot to Chara over Siegs. Some of it is hindsight, i think most of us were pretty excited to see Chara come in
So IDK it's like they made those moves to "compete now" but if we had kept those younger pieces we'd been in a way better spot to commit and go all in during these final Ovi years. Instead we still have an old roster with some young talent (Fever, CMM), but not quite there or close to hitting their primes.
So IDK it's like they made those moves to "compete now" but if we had kept those younger pieces we'd been in a way better spot to commit and go all in during these final Ovi years. Instead we still have an old roster with some young talent (Fever, CMM), but not quite there or close to hitting their primes.
Ovechkins Wodka
Registered User
A lot of us were excited about Chara For being a mentor to the younger players not making them force a trade for more playing time
Reliable Grinders are cheap, Reliable skill players are not.
Our skill players play in the top 6… also Carlson and Orlov. These are all expensive players.
Ovechkins Wodka
Registered User
If Boston can stay infront of Tampa in the wild card things could get interesting fast, The 1st round projects now as
Canes Tampa
Panthers Caps
Rangers Pens
Leafs Bruins
The Caps path to the finals might have 0 metro teams and a second round match with the Leafs. Kindof crazy
Canes Tampa
Panthers Caps
Rangers Pens
Leafs Bruins
The Caps path to the finals might have 0 metro teams and a second round match with the Leafs. Kindof crazy
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