NHL Expansion back on agenda?

[tucker3434]

GTA2 will start to make sense soon. I just don't think it's today. Once the league has teams in Houston, Atlanta, and Phoenix, they'll have addressed all the big markets in US and Canada. Then you're looking at probably $2b+ in expansion fees. Do you then put a $2b franchise in KC, San Diego, Portland, Austin or $2b+MLSE fees in GTA? Markets getting smaller while fees are getting higher has to cap out somewhere.

 

[OG6ix]

GTA2 will start to make sense soon. I just don't think it's today. Once the league has teams in Houston, Atlanta, and Phoenix, they'll have addressed all the big markets in US and Canada. Then you're looking at probably $2b+ in expansion fees. Do you then put a $2b franchise in KC, San Diego, Portland, Austin or $2b+MLSE fees in GTA? Markets getting smaller while fees are getting higher has to cap out somewhere.

I live here and I think it makes less sense by the decade. This isn't the Toronto I grew up with where hockey (particularly the leafs) was a clear #1. Diversity is an issue hockey faces and the GTA is insanely diverse now versus when I was growing up.

 

[sneakytitz]

its georgia there attendance wasnt good anyway lol who wants to watch hockey in georgia come on now. if your gonna put a team down in america pick a hockey state.

Yeah, who wants to watch soccer in Georgia? *proceeds to break nearly all North American attendance records*

 

[TurgPavs]

Quebec fans are going to be furious

I dont think the ownership of Montreal or Toronto will ever support or allow another NHL Team in Quebec or Ontario.
This finger should be pointed directly at those two franchises.

No doubt another Team would be successful in Ontario, however the TML's are never going to allow that to happen. They made that very clear during the Balsillie situation.

If its not on Ontario or Quebec, is there another city in Canada that can support a NHL Team?
Think about this, Winnipeg's average attendance last season was 13,140. That is below any attendance that Atlanta had in their 11 seasons int he ATL.
Season ticket sales have dropped nearly 30% in Winnipeg since their arrival.

I cant see another NHL Team in Canada in the near future. The NHL BOG's will focus on US markets to continue to grow the game.

 

[Tawnos]

GTA2 will start to make sense soon. I just don't think it's today. Once the league has teams in Houston, Atlanta, and Phoenix, they'll have addressed all the big markets in US and Canada. Then you're looking at probably $2b+ in expansion fees. Do you then put a $2b franchise in KC, San Diego, Portland, Austin or $2b+MLSE fees in GTA? Markets getting smaller while fees are getting higher has to cap out somewhere.

It's $2B expansion fee + over $1B arena construction + MLSE fees. You're talking about at least $3.5B for expansion and I wouldn't at all be surprised if it were well. over $4B in the end. $500m indemnity feels like a conservative number to me, but I could be wrong.

 

[TurgPavs]

Yeah, who wants to watch soccer in Georgia? *proceeds to break nearly all North American attendance records*

Agree.

 

[StreetHawk]

Attendance in Atlanta hovered around 83% capacity, for Thrashers games.
This despite:
-Horrible Arena, that was one of the worst venues in the NHL
-Little marketing efforts by Turner or Atlanta Spirit Group (ASG)
-ASG had no interest in the NHL, when they purchased the Hawks, Phillips, and the Thrashers from Turner. They put little budget into the Thrashers
-LOCATION! The arena location was solid for the NBA and terrible for the NHL. The population in the Northern Suburbs are the fans that want to see games. Fans in Forsyth, Gwinnett, and Fulton, has to fight traffic for 2+ hours to attend a game.

Why it will succeed now
-Arena proposed is a state of the art arena in a development that is a work, live, and play community.
-Location, Forsyth County is one of the fastest growing counties in the US. Many people moving into this area are Northern Transplants, and the 400 corridor is loaded with northern transplants who where the bulk of the Thrashers season ticket holders.
-Growth in hockey. Youth Leagues continue to grow, and have done so for 20+ years. The ECHL Team in Gwinnett continues to have solid attendance. UGA's Men's hockey Team continues to see solid attendance.
-Both ownership groups have members that have been in ownership groups for other teams.

The Phillips arena was brand new for the thrashers. If it was not designed well to accommodate hockey that’s on turner/city when the design went in.

 

[ponder719]

If its not on Ontario or Quebec, is there another city in Canada that can support a NHL Team?

Certainly not now, and probably not for a long time to come. I don't think the NHL is going to look at any location with less than a million people in the relevant population center (CSA, MSA, whatever you want to call appropriate), with the possible exception of Quebec City for historical reasons, ever again. That's the threshold where the gate numbers, and growth projections, seem to make reasonable sense, so I think dipping below that is off the table.

 

[Yukon Joe]

The Phillips arena was brand new for the thrashers. If it was not designed well to accommodate hockey that’s on turner/city when the design went in.

I've heard all the explanations for why the Thrashers didn't survive, both in the lead-up to them leaving, plus more recently - and I've never heard that the design of the arena was a problem before.

ASG maybe wasn't interested in the Thrashers, but old Ted Turner was.

 

[Aero 75]

MSN

Fertitta to bid on WNBA franchise, still interested in NHL.

 

[hangman005]

Wondering out loud... What does Bell Canada Enterprises do with the $3.5B (USD) they just got?

I'm hoping they give it to me.

 

[ponder719]

Wondering out loud... What does Bell Canada Enterprises do with the $3.5B (USD) they just got?

Almost certainly just pay down debt, but they could conceivably go halfsies with PKP on a new Nordiques franchise, be big damn heroes to, and earn the everlasting customer loyalty of, a significant portion of the Quebecois population, and still have $3B to pay down debt anyway.

 

[nhlfan79]

I've heard all the explanations for why the Thrashers didn't survive, both in the lead-up to them leaving, plus more recently - and I've never heard that the design of the arena was a problem before.

ASG maybe wasn't interested in the Thrashers, but old Ted Turner was.

Utterly false. The Thrashers were an afterthought for Ted Turner from the first minute. He had a budget for his Braves and Hawks, and the Thrashers only got the scraps left over. As someone who lived all of this firsthand, I'm begging you (and anyone else) to read the linked article.

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By the mid-1990s, Ted Turner, the Braves and Hawks owner, Atlanta icon and billionaire founder of CNN, entered the picture. His push for a downtown arena and the return of the NHL were inextricable. Turner paid an $80 million expansion fee for the Thrashers and secured the construction of Philips Arena, on the site of the Hawks’ and Flames’ previous home, the Omni. The hockey team, though, were second-class citizens from the start.

“There was nothing that was right or set up to succeed,” Ferraro said. “(Waddell) was telling me about the budget. They didn’t have one, basically. (Turner was) like, ‘Here are the Hawks, here are the Braves, and you guys get whatever is left over.’”

Those leftover funds manifested in low payroll numbers. The overall mindset also led to things like a weight room that initially looked like a “health club,” Ferraro said, stocked with supported weights, calf machines and other equipment with zero utility for professional hockey players. Members of the inaugural roster moved to the area without much in the way of resources like real-estate advice or doctor recommendations, something that today would be unthinkable.

“(Turner) doesn’t like hockey,” Adler said. “He never did because he viewed everything through television and didn’t feel it fit.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4579942/2023/06/05/nhl-atlanta-expansion/

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[Major4Boarding]

I'm hoping they give it to me.

Get in line, bro!

 

[GindyDraws]

MSN

Fertitta to bid on WNBA franchise, still interested in NHL.

Considering Portland is returning to the league, and the Comets were the original gold standard for the WNBA, it would be a no brainer for summer dates.

Meanwhile in the NHL side, where would the new arena be built in H-Town?

 

[dj4aces]

GTA2 will start to make sense soon. I just don't think it's today. Once the league has teams in Houston, Atlanta, and Phoenix, they'll have addressed all the big markets in US and Canada. Then you're looking at probably $2b+ in expansion fees. Do you then put a $2b franchise in KC, San Diego, Portland, Austin or $2b+MLSE fees in GTA? Markets getting smaller while fees are getting higher has to cap out somewhere.

This is why I believe 36 franchises will be the soft cap for the NHL. The BoG will certainly entertain a bid from a group in Kansas City, Louisville, or Cincinnati if they have the money, corporate support, and community support, but there will be no rush to expand after all the major markets are covered and the number of US teams more closely resembles that which are in other leagues.

 

[StreetHawk]

This is why I believe 36 franchises will be the soft cap for the NHL. The BoG will certainly entertain a bid from a group in Kansas City, Louisville, or Cincinnati if they have the money, corporate support, and community support, but there will be no rush to expand after all the major markets are covered and the number of US teams more closely resembles that which are in other leagues.

Not all of the US markets in other leagues would make for a good NHL market. Some markets can't support 3 or 4 major sports leagues (and also MLS).

 

[Salsero1]

Utterly false. The Thrashers were an afterthought for Ted Turner from the first minute. He had a budget for his Braves and Hawks, and the Thrashers only got the scraps left over. As someone who lived all of this firsthand, I'm begging you (and anyone else) to read the linked article.

----------
By the mid-1990s, Ted Turner, the Braves and Hawks owner, Atlanta icon and billionaire founder of CNN, entered the picture. His push for a downtown arena and the return of the NHL were inextricable. Turner paid an $80 million expansion fee for the Thrashers and secured the construction of Philips Arena, on the site of the Hawks’ and Flames’ previous home, the Omni. The hockey team, though, were second-class citizens from the start.

“There was nothing that was right or set up to succeed,” Ferraro said. “(Waddell) was telling me about the budget. They didn’t have one, basically. (Turner was) like, ‘Here are the Hawks, here are the Braves, and you guys get whatever is left over.’”

Those leftover funds manifested in low payroll numbers. The overall mindset also led to things like a weight room that initially looked like a “health club,” Ferraro said, stocked with supported weights, calf machines and other equipment with zero utility for professional hockey players. Members of the inaugural roster moved to the area without much in the way of resources like real-estate advice or doctor recommendations, something that today would be unthinkable.

“(Turner) doesn’t like hockey,” Adler said. “He never did because he viewed everything through television and didn’t feel it fit.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4579942/2023/06/05/nhl-atlanta-expansion/

------------

Why did Ted go through all the effort of buying the franchise and building Philips if the team wasn't a priority? If I'm not mistaken, didn't he use money from WCW to pay the expansion fee?

 

[dj4aces]

Not all of the US markets in other leagues would make for a good NHL market. Some markets can't support 3 or 4 major sports leagues (and also MLS).

If the barrier of entry is $2bn (or $3bn, or more...) and a group calls Bettman and says "Yo, I've got the money, let's talk about getting a team in Fargo", he's at least going to listen and take that conversation to the BoG to see what they think.

It's probably not gonna happen, but it's not gonna stop folks from trying.

Don't misread what I'm saying. 36 is gonna be the soft cap because there's not going to be anywhere else to go and the ask is going to exceed what most folks are willing to pay for a franchise

 

[ponder719]

Why did Ted go through all the effort of buying the franchise and building Philips if the team wasn't a priority? If I'm not mistaken, didn't he use money from WCW to pay the expansion fee?

A quick googling didn't give me anything concrete, so someone with actual info, please feel free to correct me, but my best guess is that the Thrashers expansion bid was more about justifying Philips in the first place. If you have two teams in there, you have a lot fewer dead dates, so you can ostensibly recoup money faster on the arena costs, and you don't have to leverage quite as many non-sports events.

 

[GKJ]

GTA2 will start to make sense soon. I just don't think it's today. Once the league has teams in Houston, Atlanta, and Phoenix, they'll have addressed all the big markets in US and Canada. Then you're looking at probably $2b+ in expansion fees. Do you then put a $2b franchise in KC, San Diego, Portland, Austin or $2b+MLSE fees in GTA? Markets getting smaller while fees are getting higher has to cap out somewhere.

It will never make sense because it doesn’t add to the footprint.

 

[sneakytitz]

Why did Ted go through all the effort of buying the franchise and building Philips if the team wasn't a priority?

I don't agree with the previous sentiment that he didn't have interest or the Thrashers were not a priority. The 50,000 foot view/timeline is this:

Ted was engaging with the NHL/Atlanta in early/mid 90s about a hockey team and a new arena in Atlanta to replace the Omni. Ted, whether he meant or not, used the threat of a new arena in the suburbs to get Atlanta on board. And as ponder719 mentions, getting another pro sports franchise as part of the deal helped too. Atlanta agreed; they still own the arena, now called State Farm.

By the time that Turner merged with Time Warner in October 1996 and the NHL awarded a franchise to Atlanta in June 1997, Ted no longer had that "final say" power in the newly formed company. Before the Omni could be demolished or the Thrashers colors could be picked, Time Warner was already going through post-merger cuts and trimmed budgets. The Thrashers were a victim to cost cutting before they even hit the ice.

Fast foward to January of 2000, not even halfway through the Thrasher's first season, and the AOL-Time Warner merger is announced. The dot-com bubble bursts a few months later, further exacerbating cost-cutting measures of the new company. The Thrashers are almost sold to David McDavid in early 2003 until AOL-Time Warner breaches contract and sells to ASG instead. As has already been mentioned in this thread, that is where the wheels really came off.

If I'm not mistaken, didn't he use money from WCW to pay the expansion fee?

He did. WCW was a cash cow in 1996-1997.

 

[Yukon Joe]

A quick googling didn't give me anything concrete, so someone with actual info, please feel free to correct me, but my best guess is that the Thrashers expansion bid was more about justifying Philips in the first place. If you have two teams in there, you have a lot fewer dead dates, so you can ostensibly recoup money faster on the arena costs, and you don't have to leverage quite as many non-sports events.

My recollection (and I'm not from Atlanta) was simply that Ted Turner was a big Atlanta booster. If nothing else, Ted wanted Atlanta to be in the NHL because Atlanta was a major city and darn it - deserved to be in all the big time sports leagues!

This notion that Phillips Arena wasn't suitable for hockey - today is the first time I've ever seen it - and I followed the Atlanta to Winnipeg relocation very closely at the time. Location? Maybe - but not the building itself.

I don't agree with the previous sentiment that he didn't have interest or the Thrashers were not a priority. The 50,000 foot view/timeline is this:

This accords much more with what I know of the situation.

 

[ponder719]

My recollection (and I'm not from Atlanta) was simply that Ted Turner was a big Atlanta booster. If nothing else, Ted wanted Atlanta to be in the NHL because Atlanta was a major city and darn it - deserved to be in all the big time sports leagues!

This notion that Phillips Arena wasn't suitable for hockey - today is the first time I've ever seen it - and I followed the Atlanta to Winnipeg relocation very closely at the time. Location? Maybe - but not the building itself.

Absolutely. I have nothing to go on with respect to the building itself, other than the Athletic article that just got posted and a couple things from players (they were interviewing either Ray Ferraro or Nelson Emerson, since there was a quote from one to the other in the piece) saying that the initial amenities laughably misunderstood what NHL players would need, but that could be chalked up to naïvety, rather than malice.

As for Turner basically insisting on Atlanta being a four-sport city, apparently Tom Cousins offered to just give Turner the Flames for free as part of the sale of the Hawks and the Omni, and Turner declined, but I can see a scenario where his opinion changed over the intervening years.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Absolutely. I have nothing to go on with respect to the building itself, other than the Athletic article that just got posted and a couple things from players (they were interviewing either Ray Ferraro or Nelson Emerson, since there was a quote from one to the other in the piece) saying that the initial amenities laughably misunderstood what NHL players would need, but that could be chalked up to naïvety, rather than malice.

As for Turner basically insisting on Atlanta being a four-sport city, apparently Tom Cousins offered to just give Turner the Flames for free as part of the sale of the Hawks and the Omni, and Turner declined, but I can see a scenario where his opinion changed over the intervening years.

First of all - googling finds some suggestion of the "Flames were offered for one dollar" but not really any source. Since the Flames ultimately sold for $16 million to Calgary that probably was a much better deal for Cousins then giving the team to Turner.

Also - Ted Turner of 1977 was a different man than Ted Turner of 1995. Ted was a successful businessman in the 70s owning a bunch of TV stations that showed old re-runs, but it was only with the growth in cable (with his Superstation) and CNN that he became a billionaire, and thus had money to spend on projects like the Goodwill Games, or the Atlanta NHL team.