NHL Expansion back on agenda?

[BMN]

Quebec is definitely in the mix. I believe another expansion round will end at 36 teams. One team per geographic location. Of the current three everyone is talking about, Arizona, Atlanta and Houston, only Houston would have an NHL ready arena to play in....barely. An upgrade would be needed.

Apropos of nothing, it would be kind of oddly fitting (given how much this thread alone provoked mostly messages about Atlanta and Quebec) if somewhere in the far-flung future, the NHL did return to Quebec City and their first game was against Atlanta v3.0. I often forget the Nordiques' first NHL game was vs. the Flames...

 

[GKJ]

I'd be surprised if it's an actual "process" like it was for LV round.

I think the NHL has targeted Hou and ATL. They want those markets after they have basically exhausted all non NBA markets (got into LV and SEA before NBA did).

Houston, really 2 questions. 1 will Fertitia pay the price the NHL wants which is going to be over $1 billion USD. Second is the arena. Will a big renovation be around the corner as the arena is 21 years old now or will they build a new one. Think it is located in the right place, so a reno should be all that is needed to secure another 25 years.

ATL, as I understand have 2 parties looking at building a new arena. NHL is going to have to pick from one of those.

That's why I don't think it will be a "process". The NHL should have spoken to Fertittia and the 2 ATL groups. They should have their answers now. This should all go more like the Seattle than it did for LV. All of the work is being or has been done behind the scenes already.

I think you are dead on. The NHL has been choosing its markets since it began the expansion process in 2015. Vegas was a shoe-in. Seattle would have been in earlier, but the NHL had to wait out all the red tape around retrofitting Key Arena.

The NHL have been sniffing out Houston for at least the last 5 years. I think Ryan Smith getting the Coyotes might have been the wakeup call for Fertitta that he will get passed over if he doesn't pony up. TNT getting back into hockey bodes well for Atlanta. Guaranteed that the league is looking at some big time corporate sponsors in both cities to add to the league brand.

And let's face it, there are 3 Canadian teams struggling to fill their rinks this year, where you see non traditional markets, that are winning regularly, becoming among the attendance leaders in the league. The landscape of hockey is changing. And if nothing else expansion fees keeps the profit margins going from top to bottom.

It's a matter of time.

I really hope expansion subsequently changes the current divisional format and playoff format.

Attendance means a lot less than it did. Florida was death for attendance for the balance of their existence, and now it’s like that almost never happened. Sure, you need people in the building, but he a good franchise and the people will show, but more importantly, they will watch and they will have corporate support

Elliotte Friedman said last season, it’s in the Houston thread, that he thinks there’s a second Houston group that has motivated Fertitta. But the league still seems to want him more than he wants them. Does he want to own a team just to keep others out? Does he just want a team to get a new building? Or does he want to own a team because he is investing in hockey. That’s the difference between him and Ryan Smith or either Atlanta owner, and even Vegas and Seattle.

There just seems to be a lot of landmines around Houston if they’re going with Fertitta, the idea sounds a lot better but we know nothing about the execution. I’d be worried this is setting up similar to the Thrashers where he may just decide he got the building and give up when he loses interest.

 

[OG6ix]

atlanta LOL just leave that awful place permantly already oh well quebec city by 2050 if atlanta comes cause we know it wont last AGAIN.

It wasn't the fans it was the ownership that didn't want hockey nor did they want a hockey team in the arena after selling. They never had a chance.

Put a team in Quebec City. Right that wrong, once and for all.

When you have winnipeg and ottawa struggling at times why go back to an even smaller market? There's also very little upside to add to a tv contract which is where all sports are now and the NHL wants to be too.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Kansas city maybe? i really dont think there gonna give quebec a team only chance is if one fails again and needs to be moved quebec has arena already waiting then.

QC failed each time they've had a team. They don't deserve a team.

See, I can post uneducated opinions too.

 

[Tawnos]

QC failed each time they've had a team. They don't deserve a team.

See, I can post uneducated opinions too.

Yep, each time.

And the 1920 relocation of the Bulldogs to Hamilton bears exactly the same relevance to the modern economics of the NHL as the relocation of the Flames to Calgary.... which is to say, no relevance at all.

 

[TheLegend]

yep for 15 years max lol enjoy it. i know i will when you forced to move again cause i will be hear saying itold you so

“I told you so”

Ahh yes….. HF is so full of experts on the subject.

Arizona was a last minute desperation move by the league when Gluckstien and Burke couldn’t get an arena deal done in Minnesota.

They lasted 28 years in spite of a revolving door of bad owners (vetted by the league), and bad decision on arena location and 18 years worth of predictions from same HF “experts” they were “100% sure going to be relocating the following year.”

Frankly speaking if I were a betting man for a living m the last place I would look for wagering advice would be HFBoards.

Now….. If Atlanta puts together a bad ownership group full of wannabes then you’re prediction might come true.

That won’t be Atlanta’s fault as a market. Just like it wasn’t Arizona’s.

 

[hockey20000]

“I told you so”

Ahh yes….. HF is so full of experts on the subject.

Arizona was a last minute desperation move by the league when Gluckstien and Burke couldn’t get an arena deal done in Minnesota.

They lasted 28 years in spite of a revolving door of bad owners (vetted by the league), and bad decision on arena location and 18 years worth of predictions from same HF “experts” they were “100% sure going to be relocating the following year.”

Frankly speaking if I were a betting man for a living m the last place I would look for wagering advice would be HFBoards.

Now….. If Atlanta puts together a bad ownership group full of wannabes then you’re prediction might come true.

That won’t be Atlanta’s fault as a market. Just like it wasn’t Arizona’s.

its georgia there attendance wasnt good anyway lol who wants to watch hockey in georgia come on now. if your gonna put a team down in america pick a hockey state.

 

[TheLegend]

its georgia there attendance wasnt good anyway lol who wants to watch hockey in georgia come on now. if your gonna put a team down in america pick a hockey state.

And I will remind you that Ottawa, for a while, was subject of the same things you’re projecting about Atlanta. And they’re still not out of the woods either.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

its georgia there attendance wasnt good anyway lol who wants to watch hockey in georgia come on now. if your gonna put a team down in america pick a hockey state.

Not sure if you saw, but Carolina, Tampa, Florida, and Dallas were all top-10 in attendance last season (all more than Ottawa by the way). Nashville was 100% sold out.

 

[uhlaw97]

This renovation to the Toyota Center last year should have made it clear to everyone that Fertitta had something like this in mind.

 

[Tawnos]

This renovation to the Toyota Center last year should have made it clear to everyone that Fertitta had something like this in mind.

I will forever maintain that if Fertitta had started going after the NHL just a little bit earlier than he did, he would have the Coyotes right now.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Wondering out loud... What does Bell Canada Enterprises do with the $3.5B (USD) they just got?

 

[dj4aces]

yep fails in atlanta everytime you dont deserve a 3rd shot sorry

Then it's a good thing franchises aren't awarded based on one fan's perception of merit!

I mean, would it be cool to see a team in Kansas City, Milwaukee, or Portland? Perhaps. But there are questions, the biggest of which is "are there any groups even trying right now, and if so, are any of them far enough along with building rapport with the league to even be considered?"

Pretty sure the answer is "no".

Meanwhile, Atlanta has two known groups who has built rapport with the league, has big money backing and arena plans. It's as simple as that.

Apropos of nothing, it would be kind of oddly fitting (given how much this thread alone provoked mostly messages about Atlanta and Quebec) if somewhere in the far-flung future, the NHL did return to Quebec City and their first game was against Atlanta v3.0. I often forget the Nordiques' first NHL game was vs. the Flames...

Gotta admit, I always had the QC 3.0 franchise penciled in as playing the Atlanta 3.0 franchise in the first round of the playoffs the first time they make it in. But an opening night tilt sounds great too!

 

[ponder719]

I will forever maintain that if Fertitta had started going after the NHL just a little bit earlier than he did, he would have the Coyotes right now.

Without question. The NHL would absolutely have put them there, because the less time between interest and possession, the less opportunity he has to get cold feet. (On top of which, Houston is absolutely the white whale for the NHL. Atlanta's a huge get if they do it right, but from a business perspective, it's malpractice to have only one team in the second most populous state in the US, when you have 3 in the NYC metro alone.)

 

[OG6ix]

Wondering out loud... What does Bell Canada Enterprises do with the $3.5B (USD) they just got?

Get a NBA/MLB team. There are people in Montreal trying to do both. Bell will need content TSN.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Kansas city maybe? i really dont think there gonna give quebec a team only chance is if one fails again and needs to be moved quebec has arena already waiting then.

No interested ownership in KC.

 

[TheLegend]

This renovation to the Toyota Center last year should have made it clear to everyone that Fertitta had something like this in mind.

The counterpoint to that is.....

Point being made here is...... So what if Fertitta is reinstalling a new ice system?? Sure.... he could be setting himself up to house an NHL team, but he could end up with an AHL, ECHL or even a college team instead....

..... OR booking a lot of Disney On Ice shows.

Makes for great speculation but none of it guarantees anything.

 

[dj4aces]

Wondering out loud... What does Bell Canada Enterprises do with the $3.5B (USD) they just got?

Maybe *they'll* be that big money investor PKP has been seeking since 2018?

It's gonna take more to get a Toronto #2 team though, because there's the franchise fee, indemnification (unless there's a deal for market access in that sales contract somewhere), then building a new barn.

Just my two cents though. I'm sure someone will point out where I'm wrong or something.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Get a NBA/MLB team. There are people in Montreal trying to do both. Bell will need content TSN.

Why would Bell sell a 37.5% interest in the most valuable sports franchise in Canada (surprisingly the Raptors) and the second most valuable franchise in Canada (Leafs), plus the 10th most valuable (Toronto FC) - in exchange for a team in Montreal?

Boringly, Bell is probably just going to pay down debt.

 

[TheLegend]

I will forever maintain that if Fertitta had started going after the NHL just a little bit earlier than he did, he would have the Coyotes right now.

There was a hell of a chance he could have got them instead of Meruelo. Barroway wasn't going to make your through the 2018-2019 season.

And he could have got them for much less than he'd have to pay for an expansion now.

 

[OG6ix]

Why would Bell sell a 37.5% interest in the most valuable sports franchise in Canada (surprisingly the Raptors) and the second most valuable franchise in Canada (Leafs), plus the 10th most valuable (Toronto FC) - in exchange for a team in Montreal?

Boringly, Bell is probably just going to pay down debt.

Probably will reinvest in their core business but also Ed Rogers was a headache to deal with. It's not out of the realm that they take that money and that's more than enough for a NBA/MLB expansion. The NBA is going to continue to grow so it wouldn't be a worry and you could open up a brand new market.

There was a hell of a chance he could have got them instead of Meruelo. Barroway wasn't going to make your through the 2018-2019 season.

And he could have got them for much less than he'd have to pay for an expansion now.

Isn't he more interested in more teams now that Houston is giving him incentives because they want people to come back to the downtown core to spend money?

 

[hockey20000]

And I will remind you that Ottawa, for a while, was subject of the same things you’re projecting about Atlanta. And they’re still not out of the woods either.

i have full faith in ottawa having 0% chance to move before atlantas 3rd team lol thanks for your concern though

 

[Yukon Joe]

Elliotte Friedman said last season, it’s in the Houston thread, that he thinks there’s a second Houston group that has motivated Fertitta. But the league still seems to want him more than he wants them. Does he want to own a team just to keep others out? Does he just want a team to get a new building? Or does he want to own a team because he is investing in hockey. That’s the difference between him and Ryan Smith or either Atlanta owner, and even Vegas and Seattle.

As I remember it, in the lease between the Rockets and Harris County, Harris County agrees to not help build any competing arena during the life of the lease.

So any bid that doesn't involve the Toyota Center would have to either be 100% privately financed, or would need to be in a neighboring county and supported by that local government.

100% privately financed just never happens these days. There's always some kind of government assistance - either direct grants, tax abatements, development rights, etc.

A neighboring county isn't impossible to imagine - Houston is a BIG metro area. But if you put the arena in, I dunno, The Woodlands, or in Galveston it's going to be nowhere near the center of the population.

Edit: I missed the conclusion - therefore a team in Houston is almost certainly with Fertitia.

 

[StreetHawk]

As I remember it, in the lease between the Rockets and Harris County, Harris County agrees to not help build any competing arena during the life of the lease.

So any bid that doesn't involve the Toyota Center would have to either be 100% privately financed, or would need to be in a neighboring county and supported by that local government.

100% privately financed just never happens these days. There's always some kind of government assistance - either direct grants, tax abatements, development rights, etc.

A neighboring county isn't impossible to imagine - Houston is a BIG metro area. But if you put the arena in, I dunno, The Woodlands, or in Galveston it's going to be nowhere near the center of the population.

Houston is a large city. But, I can't imagine a private builder getting the greenlight to build another 18K arena in Harris county. Because, it's more than just the space for the arena. Going to need parking lots and transit to get people in and out of the area. Really don't need 2 of them. Would have to be like ATL plan in a neighboring county.

Outside of LA/NY, not many other large cities have 2 relatively new arenas. In Fla, Heat and Panthers, I've seen that the Heat's arena gets way more non sporting events than the Panthers, same with the Suns and the Coyotes (in Glendale).

I would agree with GKJ, in that the NHL needs to do their due diligence with TF. You want to make sure you don't end up with another ASG in ATL where the NHL team is an afterthought. Can't afford that in a non traditional market. That the NHL club isn't just a play to get a new arena (though, I don't get why Toyota Center couldn't be renovated since it opened in 2003 to accommodate whatever the new trend is for arenas) and then be discarded later.

 

[TurgPavs]

its georgia there attendance wasnt good anyway lol who wants to watch hockey in georgia come on now. if your gonna put a team down in america pick a hockey state.

Attendance in Atlanta hovered around 83% capacity, for Thrashers games.
This despite:
-Horrible Arena, that was one of the worst venues in the NHL
-Little marketing efforts by Turner or Atlanta Spirit Group (ASG)
-ASG had no interest in the NHL, when they purchased the Hawks, Phillips, and the Thrashers from Turner. They put little budget into the Thrashers
-LOCATION! The arena location was solid for the NBA and terrible for the NHL. The population in the Northern Suburbs are the fans that want to see games. Fans in Forsyth, Gwinnett, and Fulton, has to fight traffic for 2+ hours to attend a game.

Why it will succeed now
-Arena proposed is a state of the art arena in a development that is a work, live, and play community.
-Location, Forsyth County is one of the fastest growing counties in the US. Many people moving into this area are Northern Transplants, and the 400 corridor is loaded with northern transplants who where the bulk of the Thrashers season ticket holders.
-Growth in hockey. Youth Leagues continue to grow, and have done so for 20+ years. The ECHL Team in Gwinnett continues to have solid attendance. UGA's Men's hockey Team continues to see solid attendance.
-Both ownership groups have members that have been in ownership groups for other teams.