NHL Expansion back on agenda?

[tucker3434]

GTA2 will start to make sense soon. I just don't think it's today. Once the league has teams in Houston, Atlanta, and Phoenix, they'll have addressed all the big markets in US and Canada. Then you're looking at probably $2b+ in expansion fees. Do you then put a $2b franchise in KC, San Diego, Portland, Austin or $2b+MLSE fees in GTA? Markets getting smaller while fees are getting higher has to cap out somewhere.

 

[OG6ix]

GTA2 will start to make sense soon. I just don't think it's today. Once the league has teams in Houston, Atlanta, and Phoenix, they'll have addressed all the big markets in US and Canada. Then you're looking at probably $2b+ in expansion fees. Do you then put a $2b franchise in KC, San Diego, Portland, Austin or $2b+MLSE fees in GTA? Markets getting smaller while fees are getting higher has to cap out somewhere.

I live here and I think it makes less sense by the decade. This isn't the Toronto I grew up with where hockey (particularly the leafs) was a clear #1. Diversity is an issue hockey faces and the GTA is insanely diverse now versus when I was growing up.

 

[sneakytitz]

its georgia there attendance wasnt good anyway lol who wants to watch hockey in georgia come on now. if your gonna put a team down in america pick a hockey state.

Yeah, who wants to watch soccer in Georgia? *proceeds to break nearly all North American attendance records*

 

[TurgPavs]

Quebec fans are going to be furious

I dont think the ownership of Montreal or Toronto will ever support or allow another NHL Team in Quebec or Ontario.
This finger should be pointed directly at those two franchises.

No doubt another Team would be successful in Ontario, however the TML's are never going to allow that to happen. They made that very clear during the Balsillie situation.

If its not on Ontario or Quebec, is there another city in Canada that can support a NHL Team?
Think about this, Winnipeg's average attendance last season was 13,140. That is below any attendance that Atlanta had in their 11 seasons int he ATL.
Season ticket sales have dropped nearly 30% in Winnipeg since their arrival.

I cant see another NHL Team in Canada in the near future. The NHL BOG's will focus on US markets to continue to grow the game.

 

[Tawnos]

GTA2 will start to make sense soon. I just don't think it's today. Once the league has teams in Houston, Atlanta, and Phoenix, they'll have addressed all the big markets in US and Canada. Then you're looking at probably $2b+ in expansion fees. Do you then put a $2b franchise in KC, San Diego, Portland, Austin or $2b+MLSE fees in GTA? Markets getting smaller while fees are getting higher has to cap out somewhere.

It's $2B expansion fee + over $1B arena construction + MLSE fees. You're talking about at least $3.5B for expansion and I wouldn't at all be surprised if it were well. over $4B in the end. $500m indemnity feels like a conservative number to me, but I could be wrong.

 

[TurgPavs]

Yeah, who wants to watch soccer in Georgia? *proceeds to break nearly all North American attendance records*

Agree.

 

[StreetHawk]

Attendance in Atlanta hovered around 83% capacity, for Thrashers games.
This despite:
-Horrible Arena, that was one of the worst venues in the NHL
-Little marketing efforts by Turner or Atlanta Spirit Group (ASG)
-ASG had no interest in the NHL, when they purchased the Hawks, Phillips, and the Thrashers from Turner. They put little budget into the Thrashers
-LOCATION! The arena location was solid for the NBA and terrible for the NHL. The population in the Northern Suburbs are the fans that want to see games. Fans in Forsyth, Gwinnett, and Fulton, has to fight traffic for 2+ hours to attend a game.

Why it will succeed now
-Arena proposed is a state of the art arena in a development that is a work, live, and play community.
-Location, Forsyth County is one of the fastest growing counties in the US. Many people moving into this area are Northern Transplants, and the 400 corridor is loaded with northern transplants who where the bulk of the Thrashers season ticket holders.
-Growth in hockey. Youth Leagues continue to grow, and have done so for 20+ years. The ECHL Team in Gwinnett continues to have solid attendance. UGA's Men's hockey Team continues to see solid attendance.
-Both ownership groups have members that have been in ownership groups for other teams.

The Phillips arena was brand new for the thrashers. If it was not designed well to accommodate hockey that’s on turner/city when the design went in.

 

[ponder719]

If its not on Ontario or Quebec, is there another city in Canada that can support a NHL Team?

Certainly not now, and probably not for a long time to come. I don't think the NHL is going to look at any location with less than a million people in the relevant population center (CSA, MSA, whatever you want to call appropriate), with the possible exception of Quebec City for historical reasons, ever again. That's the threshold where the gate numbers, and growth projections, seem to make reasonable sense, so I think dipping below that is off the table.

 

[Yukon Joe]

The Phillips arena was brand new for the thrashers. If it was not designed well to accommodate hockey that’s on turner/city when the design went in.

I've heard all the explanations for why the Thrashers didn't survive, both in the lead-up to them leaving, plus more recently - and I've never heard that the design of the arena was a problem before.

ASG maybe wasn't interested in the Thrashers, but old Ted Turner was.

 

[Aero 75]

MSN

Fertitta to bid on WNBA franchise, still interested in NHL.

 

[hangman005]

Wondering out loud... What does Bell Canada Enterprises do with the $3.5B (USD) they just got?

I'm hoping they give it to me.

 

[ponder719]

Wondering out loud... What does Bell Canada Enterprises do with the $3.5B (USD) they just got?

Almost certainly just pay down debt, but they could conceivably go halfsies with PKP on a new Nordiques franchise, be big damn heroes to, and earn the everlasting customer loyalty of, a significant portion of the Quebecois population, and still have $3B to pay down debt anyway.

 

[nhlfan79]

I've heard all the explanations for why the Thrashers didn't survive, both in the lead-up to them leaving, plus more recently - and I've never heard that the design of the arena was a problem before.

ASG maybe wasn't interested in the Thrashers, but old Ted Turner was.

Utterly false. The Thrashers were an afterthought for Ted Turner from the first minute. He had a budget for his Braves and Hawks, and the Thrashers only got the scraps left over. As someone who lived all of this firsthand, I'm begging you (and anyone else) to read the linked article.

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By the mid-1990s, Ted Turner, the Braves and Hawks owner, Atlanta icon and billionaire founder of CNN, entered the picture. His push for a downtown arena and the return of the NHL were inextricable. Turner paid an $80 million expansion fee for the Thrashers and secured the construction of Philips Arena, on the site of the Hawks’ and Flames’ previous home, the Omni. The hockey team, though, were second-class citizens from the start.

“There was nothing that was right or set up to succeed,” Ferraro said. “(Waddell) was telling me about the budget. They didn’t have one, basically. (Turner was) like, ‘Here are the Hawks, here are the Braves, and you guys get whatever is left over.’”

Those leftover funds manifested in low payroll numbers. The overall mindset also led to things like a weight room that initially looked like a “health club,” Ferraro said, stocked with supported weights, calf machines and other equipment with zero utility for professional hockey players. Members of the inaugural roster moved to the area without much in the way of resources like real-estate advice or doctor recommendations, something that today would be unthinkable.

“(Turner) doesn’t like hockey,” Adler said. “He never did because he viewed everything through television and didn’t feel it fit.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4579942/2023/06/05/nhl-atlanta-expansion/

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[Major4Boarding]

I'm hoping they give it to me.

Get in line, bro!

 

[GindyDraws]

MSN

Fertitta to bid on WNBA franchise, still interested in NHL.

Considering Portland is returning to the league, and the Comets were the original gold standard for the WNBA, it would be a no brainer for summer dates.

Meanwhile in the NHL side, where would the new arena be built in H-Town?

 

[dj4aces]

GTA2 will start to make sense soon. I just don't think it's today. Once the league has teams in Houston, Atlanta, and Phoenix, they'll have addressed all the big markets in US and Canada. Then you're looking at probably $2b+ in expansion fees. Do you then put a $2b franchise in KC, San Diego, Portland, Austin or $2b+MLSE fees in GTA? Markets getting smaller while fees are getting higher has to cap out somewhere.

This is why I believe 36 franchises will be the soft cap for the NHL. The BoG will certainly entertain a bid from a group in Kansas City, Louisville, or Cincinnati if they have the money, corporate support, and community support, but there will be no rush to expand after all the major markets are covered and the number of US teams more closely resembles that which are in other leagues.

 

[StreetHawk]

This is why I believe 36 franchises will be the soft cap for the NHL. The BoG will certainly entertain a bid from a group in Kansas City, Louisville, or Cincinnati if they have the money, corporate support, and community support, but there will be no rush to expand after all the major markets are covered and the number of US teams more closely resembles that which are in other leagues.

Not all of the US markets in other leagues would make for a good NHL market. Some markets can't support 3 or 4 major sports leagues (and also MLS).

 

[Salsero1]

Utterly false. The Thrashers were an afterthought for Ted Turner from the first minute. He had a budget for his Braves and Hawks, and the Thrashers only got the scraps left over. As someone who lived all of this firsthand, I'm begging you (and anyone else) to read the linked article.

----------
By the mid-1990s, Ted Turner, the Braves and Hawks owner, Atlanta icon and billionaire founder of CNN, entered the picture. His push for a downtown arena and the return of the NHL were inextricable. Turner paid an $80 million expansion fee for the Thrashers and secured the construction of Philips Arena, on the site of the Hawks’ and Flames’ previous home, the Omni. The hockey team, though, were second-class citizens from the start.

“There was nothing that was right or set up to succeed,” Ferraro said. “(Waddell) was telling me about the budget. They didn’t have one, basically. (Turner was) like, ‘Here are the Hawks, here are the Braves, and you guys get whatever is left over.’”

Those leftover funds manifested in low payroll numbers. The overall mindset also led to things like a weight room that initially looked like a “health club,” Ferraro said, stocked with supported weights, calf machines and other equipment with zero utility for professional hockey players. Members of the inaugural roster moved to the area without much in the way of resources like real-estate advice or doctor recommendations, something that today would be unthinkable.

“(Turner) doesn’t like hockey,” Adler said. “He never did because he viewed everything through television and didn’t feel it fit.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4579942/2023/06/05/nhl-atlanta-expansion/

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Why did Ted go through all the effort of buying the franchise and building Philips if the team wasn't a priority? If I'm not mistaken, didn't he use money from WCW to pay the expansion fee?

 

[dj4aces]

Not all of the US markets in other leagues would make for a good NHL market. Some markets can't support 3 or 4 major sports leagues (and also MLS).

If the barrier of entry is $2bn (or $3bn, or more...) and a group calls Bettman and says "Yo, I've got the money, let's talk about getting a team in Fargo", he's at least going to listen and take that conversation to the BoG to see what they think.

It's probably not gonna happen, but it's not gonna stop folks from trying.

Don't misread what I'm saying. 36 is gonna be the soft cap because there's not going to be anywhere else to go and the ask is going to exceed what most folks are willing to pay for a franchise

 

[ponder719]

Why did Ted go through all the effort of buying the franchise and building Philips if the team wasn't a priority? If I'm not mistaken, didn't he use money from WCW to pay the expansion fee?

A quick googling didn't give me anything concrete, so someone with actual info, please feel free to correct me, but my best guess is that the Thrashers expansion bid was more about justifying Philips in the first place. If you have two teams in there, you have a lot fewer dead dates, so you can ostensibly recoup money faster on the arena costs, and you don't have to leverage quite as many non-sports events.