NHL.com Trophy Tracker - Hart Trophy

ManofSteel55

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Aug 15, 2013
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Sylvan Lake, Alberta
I'm still amazed how many of you guys aren't even considering Josi to be in top 3/5. He managed to drag Nashville into playoffs, got into 8th all time list of dmen in points in a season (by far the best season from active dmen) and finished 10 points ahead of next Nashville player (Duchene) and next dman in points (Makar).

Just in comparison Matthews was 17th player alltime to score 60, 3rd active and t-2nd best goal total from active players.
Also McDavids points total is 3rd best from an active player and I don't even want to count how many has scored 123+ before..

I don't think Josi gets enough credit for his season from you guys or apparently even from journalists.. I bet it has something to do with the fact that his playing in not that sexy market in Nashville.
The issue is that the media doesn't vote on the award the same every year. A few years ago they voted for Hall to win, and every one of those voters should be voting for Shesterkin or Josi this year as those guys fit the criteria of "the team wouldn't be close to the playoffs without them." But there are too many of the voters who fall for their own narratives on it.
 

RavenGuard

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Feb 20, 2020
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Malkin PPG 1.45
Stamkos PPG 1.18

McDavid PPG 1.53
Matthews PPG 1.45

And Malkin scored 50 goals, so even though he didn’t get the all-time-greatness-defining 60 goals, he still hit the magical 50 goal milestone. McDavid didn’t score 50, let alone 60.

And Matthews hit both the magical 50 goal and 100 point milestones, whereas Stamkos didn’t hit 100 when he scored 60.

And Malkin led his team to 4th in the standings, just like Matthews. McDavid’s team is outside the top 10, and Stamkos missed the playoffs.

I see this race as more of a 1994 Fedorov-Gretzky race, which is even more appropriate given Matthews is scoring like this also as a two-way elite defensive centerman, like Fedorov.

And this is before you get into narratives and historical achievements like 50 in 50.
You really just called Matthews a 2 way ELITE centerman AND COMPARED HIM TO Fedorov?

You Leafs fans need to seriously get a grip at this point. Is Matthews better defensively this year? Absolutely. Elite 2 way center?

No. Just no. Elite defensive centers aren't taking the 4th fewest defensive zone starts on their team like Matthews did this year.

Stop the cap

Edit.....Elite 2 way centerman also don't bleed HDSC like Matthews does or give up an unreal amount of 5v5 goals.

Again.....stop the cap.

Elite 2 way center🤣🤣😅😅🤣😅🤣😅
 

RavenGuard

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Feb 20, 2020
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Matthews literally misses the first part of the season, plays at 50% while recovering from wrist Surgery for the first 40 games or so…and then takes the last week and a half off of the season, and still wins the ROCKET. Draisaitl playing 30 min a night riding shotgun with McDavid and they can’t touch him.

Matthews literally saying “hold my beer” lol

Back to back!
Riding shotgun with McDavid?

You know that it's 2022 and not 2018 right?
 

PostBradMalone

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Mar 19, 2022
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You've certainly changed your tune since you advocated for McDavid to win Calder despite his missing half a season.

Had Matthews tied McDavid in points (or even been within the top three) this would be a great call out. Instead, it just makes the case for why the sixth-place points leader shouldn’t win anything but the Richard. Good work.
 
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Erik Alfredsson

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Jan 14, 2012
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You really just called Matthews a 2 way ELITE centerman AND COMPARED HIM TO Fedorov?

You Leafs fans need to seriously get a grip at this point. Is Matthews better defensively this year? Absolutely. Elite 2 way center?

No. Just no. Elite defensive centers aren't taking the 4th fewest defensive zone starts on their team like Matthews did this year.

Stop the cap

Edit.....Elite 2 way centerman also don't bleed HDSC like Matthews does or give up an unreal amount of 5v5 goals.

Again.....stop the cap.

Elite 2 way center🤣🤣😅😅🤣😅🤣😅
It's like a lot of people don't understand the effect that a dominant line has on matchups. Matthews (and McDavid) aren't being used in defensive situations, and the other team is just trying to shut them down when they are on the ice, as opposed to a full out offensive attack. It's absolutely hilarious to call Matthews an Elite Defensive Center because he doesn't play defensive hockey at all. Pointing to a specific defensive metric that makes him look good and saying "SEE!?!?" is just silly because it completely strips away the context of the role that Matthews plays, which is "go out and score goals", and in all honesty that kind of behavior really just demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of hockey beyond a surface level.
 

RavenGuard

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Feb 20, 2020
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Matthews can have the award that the donut eaters in the press box vote on.

McDavid will take home the MVP award that the players vote on, the Ted Lindsey Award.

The award voted on by players is far more important and meaningful than the one voted on by the jackals in the media.

🤷‍♂️
 

TheDoldrums

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May 3, 2016
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Matthews can have the award that the donut eaters in the press box vote on.

McDavid will take home the MVP award that the players vote on, the Ted Lindsey Award.

The award voted on by players is far more important and meaningful than the one voted on by the jackals in the media.

🤷‍♂️

pretty sure Matthews has an even better chance at the Lindsey so I hope you keep this energy for when that's announced
 

RavenGuard

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Feb 20, 2020
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It's like a lot of people don't understand the effect that a dominant line has on matchups. Matthews (and McDavid) aren't being used in defensive situations, and the other team is just trying to shut them down when they are on the ice, as opposed to a full out offensive attack. It's absolutely hilarious to call Matthews an Elite Defensive Center because he doesn't play defensive hockey at all. Pointing to a specific defensive metric that makes him look good and saying "SEE!?!?" is just silly because it completely strips away the context of the role that Matthews plays, which is "go out and score goals", and in all honesty that kind of behavior really just demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of hockey beyond a surface level.
Theres a reason he has the 4th lowest d-zone starts out of the 4 centers in his team. TO fans want us to believe he's a dominant and elite defensive player and yet the coach rarely starts him in the D-zone.

Leafs Logic 101 I guess.
 
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TheDoldrums

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Theres a reason he has the 4th lowest d-zone starts out of the 4 centers in his team. TO fans want us to believe he's a dominant and elite defensive player and yet the coach rarely starts him in the D-zone.

Leafs Logic 101 I guess.

Yeah the reason is he's one of the best offensive players on earth and his advantage offensively over the other options is far greater than the defensive differences. Maximizing the time your best players spend in the other teams zone is generally a good thing. I also don't even know who you're referring to as the 4th centre, their 4th line has been in flux all year and has been Spezza/Blackwell lately and they don't get many d-zone starts.

Matthews starts in the o-zone 64.77% of the time.
Bergeron starts in the o-zone 61.17% of the time.

How could Bergeron be an elite centre with those zone starts!
 

RavenGuard

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Yeah the reason is he's one of the best offensive players on earth and his advantage offensively over the other options is far greater than the defensive differences. Maximizing the time your best players spend in the other teams zone is generally a good thing. I also don't even know who you're referring to as the 4th centre, their 4th line has been in flux all year and has been Spezza/Blackwell lately and they don't get many d-zone starts.

Matthews starts in the o-zone 64.77% of the time.
Bergeron starts in the o-zone 61.17% of the time.

How could Bergeron be an elite centre with those zone starts!
If he was "elite" defensively he would start in his own zone more.....but he isn't so he doesn't.
 
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Erik Alfredsson

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Yeah the reason is he's one of the best offensive players on earth and his advantage offensively over the other options is far greater than the defensive differences. Maximizing the time your best players spend in the other teams zone is generally a good thing. I also don't even know who you're referring to as the 4th centre, their 4th line has been in flux all year and has been Spezza/Blackwell lately and they don't get many d-zone starts.

Matthews starts in the o-zone 64.77% of the time.
Bergeron starts in the o-zone 61.17% of the time.

How could Bergeron be an elite centre with those zone starts!
Right, that's fine and all, but if Matthews isn't used in a defensive role, then he really isn't "an elite defensive center".

You're right, Matthews is one of the best offensive players in the league. So this desire from Leaf fans to portray him as this Fedorov-esque two-center is puzzling. Why can't you just be satisfied with him being a top 3 offensive player in the league? Why try to turn him into something he's not, and something he's never been asked to be by his coaches? He very well could have the capabilities to be an elite two-way player that is played in a role where his goal is to shut down the other team's scorers. In all honesty, he probably does have the ability to do that, he's a very intelligent player with good skating. But he isn't asked to do that, and as you said, nor should he be. So it's just silly to make these claims of "elite two-way player" when he doesn't play a two-way role at all.
 

Strangle

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May 4, 2009
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I've spoken about this before, but I'll say it again. When you find yourself on an offensively dominant line, such as the Marner-Matthews-Bunting line, the matchups you get aren't trying to score on you. They're trying to shut you down. They don't care about scoring goals when Matthews and Marner are on the ice, their sole focus is shutting those two down. This makes playing "defense" for players like Matthews and Marner much easier because they hardly have to do much defending, at least compared to most other players.

So posting these defensive metrics are just so so misleading because they really remove the context of the roles that these players play and the matchups they get. McDavid gets the same effect of Matthews where his matchups are just trying to shut him down, but neither one of these guys are used in defensive roles whatsoever, so while metrics might indicate one is superior to the other, the reality is that neither one of them have much defensive impact in general, because neither one of them are actually used in situations where they are actively defending instead of just "go out there and try to score".

What you’re describing here is penalty killing, not 5 on 5 hockey.

When Mcdavid is on the ice for 24 minutes a game or matthews for 21, are you seriously saying that the other team stops trying to score?!

That’s crazy. It’s not a power play, it’s just normal hockey lol
 

Strangle

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Theres a reason he has the 4th lowest d-zone starts out of the 4 centers in his team. TO fans want us to believe he's a dominant and elite defensive player and yet the coach rarely starts him in the D-zone.

Leafs Logic 101 I guess.

This makes zero sense.

Think this through, coach. You can play Matthews 20 mins a night. You can’t start him for every face off. Your GM has given you a whole team of players to deploy.

Some of those players aren’t going to give you much more scoring on offense, they just aren’t as talented in that way, so you start them in the defensive zone and you hope your offensively gifted players are going to play more than Kampf in the offensive zone.

You have the best goal scorer in the league in your team. Which zone are you going to start him in?
 

RavenGuard

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This makes zero sense.

Think this through, coach. You can play Matthews 20 mins a night. You can’t start him for every face off. Your GM has given you a whole team of players to deploy.

Some of those players aren’t going to give you much more scoring on offense, they just aren’t as talented in that way, so you start them in the defensive zone and you hope your offensively gifted players are going to play more than Kampf in the offensive zone.

You have the best goal scorer in the league in your team. Which zone are you going to start him in?
Using your best and most elite defensive forward in the Dzone makes way more sense.

If he's so elite why would it matter?
 
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Strangle

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Using your best and most elite defensive forward in the Dzone makes way more sense.

If he's so elite why would it matter?

You’re not understanding deployment. You also have good defensive centers who can’t score 60 goals a season.

If Matthews wasn’t a perennial rocket winner, you’d probably start him in the d zone more often
 
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Erik Alfredsson

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Jan 14, 2012
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What you’re describing here is penalty killing, not 5 on 5 hockey.

When Mcdavid is on the ice for 24 minutes a game or matthews for 21, are you seriously saying that the other team stops trying to score?!

That’s crazy. It’s not a power play, it’s just normal hockey lol
No, I am not describing penalty killing. This is a real effect that many former players have talked about. Daniel Alfredsson had a great description of the effect when he was on the Wally and Methot show. He said that when he went from playing with Todd White to playing with Spezza and Heatley, all of a sudden the matchups he got weren't even trying to score against him most of the time anymore. The line was so dangerous offensively, that the matchups they got were just primarily focuses on making sure they don't get scored on. You can visually see this. I watched teams defend against the Matthews and Marner line. They're not nearly as risky, they're very aware of their positioning on the ice, and they make sure to have tight coverage. They're not attempting to turn pucks over for a quick transition. They're not attempting to try and burn them up the ice. They're tentative and patient instead. This makes defending a lot easier for Matthews, and also players like McDavid.
 

RavenGuard

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Feb 20, 2020
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You’re not understanding deployment. You also have good defensive centers who can’t score 60 goals a season.

If Matthews wasn’t a perennial rocket winner, you’d probably start him in the d zone more often
Agreed. He's a hell of a player for sure.

All I'm saying is that if he's elite defensively he really shouldn't be 4th out of 4 centers for D zone starts. Do I think he should be 1st in the category? No.

But 4th? That's odd.
 

Strangle

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May 4, 2009
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No, I am not describing penalty killing. This is a real effect that many former players have talked about. Daniel Alfredsson had a great description of the effect when he was on the Wally and Methot show. He said that when he went from playing with Todd White to playing with Spezza and Heatley, all of a sudden the matchups he got weren't even trying to score against him most of the time anymore. The line was so dangerous offensively, that the matchups they got were just primarily focuses on making sure they don't get scored on. You can visually see this. I watched teams defend against the Matthews and Marner line. They're not nearly as risky, they're very aware of their positioning on the ice, and they make sure to have tight coverage. They're not attempting to turn pucks over for a quick transition. They're not attempting to try and burn them up the ice. They're tentative and patient instead. This makes defending a lot easier for Matthews, and also players like McDavid.

What you’re describing is what teams do when they are penalty killing.

Teams may line match sometimes, and they might play more cautiously out of fear of being burned by a superstar, they might even put a certain player on a plan to shadow a superstar.

But, teams continue to try to score at 5 on 5, no matter what line they are playing against. If McDavid’s line is playing Matthews line, you think McDavid isn’t thinking about breaking out his teammates for a 2 on 1?

Teams often can catch offensive superstars cheating and score on them. These lines get scored on across the league every single game.
 

TheDoldrums

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Agreed. He's a hell of a player for sure.

All I'm saying is that if he's elite defensively he really shouldn't be 4th out of 4 centers for D zone starts. Do I think he should be 1st in the category? No.

But 4th? That's odd.

I'm guessing you think Kerfoot is a centre when he's been a winger this year. Otherwise I again have no idea which other centre you're referring to besides Kampf/Tavares.
 

Strangle

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May 4, 2009
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Agreed. He's a hell of a player for sure.

All I'm saying is that if he's elite defensively he really shouldn't be 4th out of 4 centers for D zone starts. Do I think he should be 1st in the category? No.

But 4th? That's odd.

You need to get your other players ice time, that’s why superstars who score start on in offensive zone and players who really only offer faceiff wins and defensive play start in the defensive zone.

The idea is, I’d presume, to win the face off, clear the zone, dump the puck and line change. You don’t want Matthews to do that, you want him coming onto the ice when you are entering the zone. You don’t want his ice time spent defending and have a player like kampf out there when it’s time to attack.
 
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