NHL.com Trophy Tracker - Hart Trophy

[turnagainoutlaw]

To me the Hart trophy definition should be interpreted as best all around player which would be Matthews this year. The Lindsey should be most outstanding player which has to be McDavid.

 

[Canovin]

What I'm saying is, Tampa is still a solid team, with or without Kucherov.

It isn't nor will it ever be a deterrent to vote for a player, outside of HF circles of course.

Kucherov didn't miss any games when he won the Ross and Hart tho. If he won the Hart while missing games like Matthews then you have a valid point

What Kucherov did that year is far more impressive than what Matthews is doing. If Matthews wins the Ross by a far margin, he deserves the Hart as well.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Exactly. Here's a great post from @TheDevilMadeMe that really makes it clear: HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time (Preliminary and General Discussion)

From 1924 (the first year the Hart was handed out) to 1953 (the last year before the Norris), there were 40 defensemen who finished in the top five in Hart voting. (The real number might be even higher, because we don't have the full voting results for some of those years).

From 1953 to 2011 (what TDMM posted), there were only 38 such seasons. If you extend that to 2021, there are only two more - so we're up to 40.

Pre Norris trophy? A minimum of 40 defensemen finished top five in Hart voting in the span of 29 seasons.

Post Norris trophy? 40 defensemen finished top five in Hart voting in 66 seasons. So the likelihood of a defenseman finishing in the top five dropped by half (and eight of those 40 years were Bobby Orr).

I don't think there's any reasonable explanation for this other than writers decided to give defensemen less credit than they deserve because they have their "own" trophy. If you take the Hart trophy voting literally, there has been one instance in the past thirty years where a defenseman was a top three player. That's an absurd conclusion.

I wonder how much of this is a result of who votes on these awards. The hockey media leads you to believe they follow the entire league, but do they really? Does the beat reporter in Pittsburgh who covers the Pens actually see a lot of games from Pacific Division teams? Does a Tampa writer watch a whole lot of Flames or Canucks games? I doubt it.

So, what's the easiest way for these people to "judge" how good of a season a player has had? Look up their point totals. And which position usually is at the top of the various offensive statistic leaderboards? Forwards.

The Norris trophy has given them an extra layer of excuse built in to their choices because they can then just vote for the best defenseman (who may be the best player overall) and he still gets an award.

 

[steierwrass]

You’re out to lunch then considering the NHL has already recognized it (yes I’m aware they differentiate between official and unofficial 50 in 50s for the record books) and it’s not any less of an achievement despite what you wish to believe. Also wow only 10 goals in the other 23 or 24? Better leave his name off the Hart ballot lol

It's actually little less of an achievement. Still big and rare thing. Unofficial one starts from one game, where you scored and started good run. Official one starts from game that's predetermined game. If you don't start your hot streak there, it's more difficult. Still, we haven't seen many of those, but it's kind of same as saying, that you can't start counting McDavid's points from coach change or can't count points for someone from last 82 games, but is has to be full season. Great achievements, but little different.

 

[authentic]

It's actually little less of an achievement. Still big and rare thing. Unofficial one starts from one game, where you scored and started good run. Official one starts from game that's predetermined game. If you don't start your hot streak there, it's more difficult. Still, we haven't seen many of those, but it's kind of same as saying, that you can't start counting McDavid's points from coach change or can't count points for someone from last 82 games, but is has to be full season. Great achievements, but little different.

It’s not different at all. The difficulty of doing it from game 1-50, 2-51, 3-52 is exactly the same. The only reason it’s recognized as the official in your first 50 games is because Richard was the first and only to do it in a 50 game season. If you’re playing an 80 game season you have the same opportunity to do it as everyone else and it literally doesn’t matter when in the season it happens since you still have to actually score 50 goals in 50 games.

 

[steierwrass]

It’s not different at all. The difficulty of doing it from game 1-50, 2-51, 3-52 is exactly the same. The only reason it’s recognized as the official in your first 50 games is because Richard was the first and only to do it in a 50 game season. If you’re playing an 80 game season you have the same opportunity to do it as everyone else and it literally doesn’t matter when in the season it happens since you still have to actually score 50 goals in 50 games.

It's different. Let's say it this way. I give you chance to score 50 goals in 50 games from starting game 1 or starting any game (1 to 33) on season, which one would you choose? Of course the one, where you have 33 possible chances instead of one. If you don't get it, maybe you shouldn't even try to argue about it.

 

[authentic]

It's different. Let's say it this way. I give you chance to score 50 goals in 50 games from starting game 1 or starting any game (1 to 33) on season, which one would you choose? Of course the one, where you have 33 possible chances instead of one. If you don't get it, maybe you shouldn't even try to argue about it.

No it’s not. Let’s say I give you 1 chance to score 50 in 50 starting from game 6, do you have a better chance of doing it there or your other 32 tries? Like wow you mean to tell me it’s harder to do it on one arbitrary stretch of games than the other 32 combined? Like it doesn’t take much to figure it out lol.

You also don’t get 1 chance, every player who plays more than 1 season has a chance to do it from 1-50 again, which is just 1 of your 33 chances. You have to honestly be willfully ignorant to not understand this.

 

[Staniowski]

I think it's very clear that as of about a couple weeks ago, Matthews was going to win the Hart in a rout....the big question is, has enough changed since then for somebody else to win?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I wonder how much of this is a result of who votes on these awards. The hockey media leads you to believe they follow the entire league, but do they really? Does the beat reporter in Pittsburgh who covers the Pens actually see a lot of games from Pacific Division teams? Does a Tampa writer watch a whole lot of Flames or Canucks games? I doubt it.

So, what's the easiest way for these people to "judge" how good of a season a player has had? Look up their point totals. And which position usually is at the top of the various offensive statistic leaderboards? Forwards.

The Norris trophy has given them an extra layer of excuse built in to their choices because they can then just vote for the best defenseman (who may be the best player overall) and he still gets an award.

Well said. I think this is the other main reason. Back in the earliest days of the NHL, there were a small number of teams, and any writer would have the opportunity to watch every team play a meaningful number of games.

As the league expanded, it became harder and harder for voters (and fans, for that matter) to watch a meaningful number of games from every player. We all know that defense is hard to measure statistically. It's so much easier to measure how a forward is doing (or a goalie, for that matter). I suspect that a lot of the times, voters will make the safe & easy choice, and round out their ballot with one or two high-scoring forwards.

Not to pick on Claude Giroux, but he's been in the top five in Hart voting three times - which is as many as Lidstrom, Hedman, Keith, Niedermayer, Pronger, Chelios and Stevens combined. Crazy.

 

[PostBradMalone]

Exactly. Here's a great post from @TheDevilMadeMe that really makes it clear: HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time (Preliminary and General Discussion)

From 1924 (the first year the Hart was handed out) to 1953 (the last year before the Norris), there were 40 defensemen who finished in the top five in Hart voting. (The real number might be even higher, because we don't have the full voting results for some of those years).

From 1953 to 2011 (what TDMM posted), there were only 38 such seasons. If you extend that to 2021, there are only two more - so we're up to 40.

Pre Norris trophy? A minimum of 40 defensemen finished top five in Hart voting in the span of 29 seasons.

Post Norris trophy? 40 defensemen finished top five in Hart voting in 66 seasons. So the likelihood of a defenseman finishing in the top five dropped by half (and eight of those 40 years were Bobby Orr).

I don't think there's any reasonable explanation for this other than writers decided to give defensemen less credit than they deserve because they have their "own" trophy. If you take the Hart trophy voting literally, there has been one instance in the past thirty years where a defenseman was a top three player. That's an absurd conclusion.

Good post, and going back 25 years the only forwards to not win the Hart after bagging 122+ and winning the Art Ross were Hasek in ‘97 and Fedorov (a real elite defensive player) in his Selke year. Shesterkin unfortunately doesn’t have the GP and Matthews isn’t Fedorov in any respect so it should be an open and shut case.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Exactly. Here's a great post from @TheDevilMadeMe that really makes it clear: HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time (Preliminary and General Discussion)

From 1924 (the first year the Hart was handed out) to 1953 (the last year before the Norris), there were 40 defensemen who finished in the top five in Hart voting. (The real number might be even higher, because we don't have the full voting results for some of those years).

From 1953 to 2011 (what TDMM posted), there were only 38 such seasons. If you extend that to 2021, there are only two more - so we're up to 40.

Pre Norris trophy? A minimum of 40 defensemen finished top five in Hart voting in the span of 29 seasons.

Post Norris trophy? 40 defensemen finished top five in Hart voting in 66 seasons. So the likelihood of a defenseman finishing in the top five dropped by half (and eight of those 40 years were Bobby Orr).

I don't think there's any reasonable explanation for this other than writers decided to give defensemen less credit than they deserve because they have their "own" trophy. If you take the Hart trophy voting literally, there has been one instance in the past thirty years where a defenseman was a top three player. That's an absurd conclusion.

I would have to dig up my post from a year or so ago but I pointed out that it is interesting that if you look at number of forwards vs D vs G, you might think there'd be some relationship to the awards.....also when you consider no position more affects the game than goalie and the old expression "defense wins champioships" yet the Hart is almost exclusively for forwards. More interesting to me is that when it matters (playoffs) you see the goalies and D more recognized and awards vs positions better line up.

So in regular season, forwards are considered almost be all end all but when it actually matters, we see the other positions recognized more for their contributions.

 

[Busher]

Copium. you know you are not arguing with the poster you quoted but to the hockey experts that he quoted?

You are not a hockey expert last I checked. Nobody is quoting you in articles...last I checked. You are just a voice on these boards who's currently suffering from copium. Last I checked.

View attachment 537095

It's very likely a Toronto Maple Leaf is going to win the Hart this year. I know, I know...that sucks. No Toronto Maple Leaf deserves to win anything at anytime because their fan base pisses you off but here we are.

Copium.

It really does seem that way. We should all be cheering for hockey greatness and hockey history. I know I am. I loved watching McDavid score at a historic 150 point pace last year. He won the Hart unanimously, and deservedly so.

McDavid is the best player in hockey overall many years. But THIS year, Matthews is the one doing historic things. For this one year at least, Matthews has been the best player. Maybe McDavid scores 140 points next year and wins another Hart. I’d love to see that. But this year has belonged to Matthews.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I would have to dig up my post from a year or so ago but I pointed out that it is interesting that if you look at number of forwards vs D vs G, you might think there'd be some relationship to the awards.....also when you consider no position more affects the game than goalie and the old expression "defense wins champioships" yet the Hart is almost exclusively for forwards. More interesting to me is that when it matters (playoffs) you see the goalies and D more recognized and awards vs positions better line up.

So in regular season, forwards are considered almost be all end all but when it actually matters, we see the other positions recognized more for their contributions.

This also goes with what I said in my previous post about the people who vote on these awards and how much they actually watch all the games in order to form their opinion.

In the regular season, there's just too many games for them to follow what a defenseman is doing. So it's easier to default to "who scored the most" to determine who was best. But the playoffs kind of narrow down the number of games they have to follow, and because the Conn Smythe typically goes to the SC winning team (or at least one of the finalists) then it's easier for the media to kind of hyper focus in on select teams and see how much of an impact defensemen may have that don't always show up on the scoreboard.

 

[Arpeggio]

I think Matthews gets it, 50 in 50 is pretty unbelievable. The only reason he might not get it is because of missed games.

I think McDavid is the better player, but that doesn't mean you get handed the Hart every season. McDavid is going to go down as one of the most consistent elite offensive players in history, he's always going to be in the conversation. But this year, I think Matthews has enough of an argument to win.

 

[TopG]

Lmao, try and follow what was going on, instead of jumping in the middle of it.

I know exactly whats going on. Matthews is your 2022 MVP

 

[TheOrangeDesk]

It’s not different at all. The difficulty of doing it from game 1-50, 2-51, 3-52 is exactly the same. The only reason it’s recognized as the official in your first 50 games is because Richard was the first and only to do it in a 50 game season. If you’re playing an 80 game season you have the same opportunity to do it as everyone else and it literally doesn’t matter when in the season it happens since you still have to actually score 50 goals in 50 games.s

statistically that's not true. you have one chance to get 50 in 50 in the first 50 games. but to get 50 in any other 50 game window during an 82 game season is 33 windows of opportunity. Still, holy shit what an accomplishment.

 

[authentic]

statistically that's not true. you have one chance to get 50 in 50 in the first 50 games. but to get 50 in any other 50 game window during an 82 game season is 33 windows of opportunity. Still, holy shit what an accomplishment.

I already explained why it is but carry on if you must. I actually feel bad for people who don’t understand.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

statistically that's not true. you have one chance to get 50 in 50 in the first 50 games. but to get 50 in any other 50 game window during an 82 game season is 33 windows of opportunity. Still, holy shit what an accomplishment.

You only have one chance to get 50 in 50 from the game Matthews started. It's more "arbitrary ".

 

[TheGoldenJet]

1. McDavid - winner
2. Gaudreau
3. Matthews

 

[North Cole]

No it’s not. Let’s say I give you 1 chance to score 50 in 50 starting from game 6, do you have a better chance of doing it there or your other 32 tries? Like wow you mean to tell me it’s harder to do it on one arbitrary stretch of games than the other 32 combined? Like it doesn’t take much to figure it out lol.

You also don’t get 1 chance, every player who plays more than 1 season has a chance to do it from 1-50 again, which is just 1 of your 33 chances. You have to honestly be willfully ignorant to not understand this.

Wait what? The difficulty of scoring 50 in a 50 game stretch is identical between singular 50 game stretches, which is not at all what the people are arguing against. Its that the probabiltiy increases when you have 33 50 game stretches to choose from rather than 1...

I already explained why it is but carry on if you must. I actually feel bad for people who don’t understand.

Really? It seems that what you explained was that you actually have no idea how to differentiate between a combination and a permutation.

If I give you two lottery tickets where you must get 7 drawn numbers in a row right (ie they must appear on your ticket in the order drawn) but allow you to choose 7 numbers on the first ticket and 33 numbers on the second, you're going to tell me that your chances are the same for both?

 

[authentic]

Wait what? The difficulty of scoring 50 in a 50 game stretch is identical between singular 50 game stretches, which is not at all what the people are arguing against. Its that the probabiltiy increases when you have 33 50 game stretches to choose from rather than 1...


Really? It seems that what you explained was that you actually have no idea how to differentiate between a combination and a permutation.

If I give you two lottery tickets where you must get 7 drawn numbers in a row right (ie they must appear on your ticket in the order drawn) but allow you to choose 7 numbers on the first ticket and 33 numbers on the second, you're going to tell me that your chances are the same for both?

Why would you only have 1 to choose from though? There’s literally nothing special about those first 50 games and if anything as scoring tightens up near the end of the season you could argue it’s more difficult to do later on. It’s an 82 game season and games 1-50 are just 1 of your 33 chances. Why would you need to get it in your first 50 games?

Also like I said when another season starts you get to play games 1-50 again. Unless you’re comparing it to someone who did it in the only 50 games they could play in which is what Richard did and why the “official” 50 in 50 exists to begin with it makes no difference.

 

[FDBluth]

I feel like a lot of voters are gonna default to McDavid when it comes to actually filling out their ballots on the day. I think Matthews has just fallen too far behind in games and points now. Matthews is the sexy choice, but I think McDavid will prevail. When you look at the two and see that McDavid is nearly 20 points ahead, and Matthews is down to 5th in league scoring, it's kinda a lot to overcome despite his goal totals.

 

[GoldenKnight]

The ESPN NHL Player's Poll clearly demonstrates why McDavid should win the Hart Trophy:

"Which player do you pick to help your team win one game?"

Connor McDavid won in a landslide, 42.4 per cent of the votes. Matthews was not even in the top 5. His own peers do not consider him in the same class as McDavid this season.

McDavid winning the Hart is the most legitimate outcome, he is the most deserving of the award this year.

 

[Cup or Bust]

I think McDavid deserves it based on the great season he has had as well as how valuable he has been to the Oilers this season. The team was almost down and out until he went on a 15 game point streak and had 6 game winning goals in that span as well as his general value to the Oilers almost every game. That combination makes me feel he should win it, but I think Matthews is a complete lock to win it. The media is not really that impressed by what McDavid does at this point. They will jump on the hype train of the season.

 

[5 14 6 1]

Its going to be close for whoever wins it.

My ballot

McDavid
Gaudreau
Shesterkin
Matthews
Josi