News and Notes Thread VII: Ch ch ch changes

[nobuddy]

Really hard to comprehend how dumb CBJ is being there.

You'd think teams would have learned how awful of an idea bridge contracts are after the Subban debacle in Montreal.

One thing JR was very good at avoiding to his credit. We'd be owing Skinner and Faulk a LOT more than their current cap hits in 2-3 years had we given them 2/3 year deals after their ELCs.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

More complaining for the sake of complaining. If there's no moves out there that make sense, why make them? Just to show that he's doing something?

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Not to mention, you want a non-JR top 10 pick? We take a rangy, giant dman at 7th overall when you've got an under 6-foot, skilled, almost-NHL-ready forward, who happens to be the son of a former NHL player, sitting on the board in Nylander.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The frustration is that Francis has *also* come out and said that he liked his group. But nobody really wants to focus on that right now. The change for the sake of change at the helm has quieted the minions who were expecting JR to blow this team up if he was still here. Cam Ward was all but gone in our minds. One of the Staal brothers all but traded. Jeff Skinner perhaps being dangled to change up the makeup of the team. Several different paths that could have been taken. And as long as Ron Francis was sitting at the head of the draft table, the draft picks come down to his final decision. If he didn't like the direction, he could have changed it. All this throwback to Rutherford's mistakes and hand in what this team has done to this point is sparing Francis of any responsibility when he has all the autonomy in the world to make changes if he wants to make them. He just isn't doing it.

But isn't it reasonable Vagrant, as a new GM, to see what a new coach can do with the core of players before blowing it up with a major deal (Staal, Skinner, etc..?) I see nothing wrong with that. On the flipside, if there is no improvement this year, I would expect more sweeping changes in year 2+.

The first thing any reputable GM would have done when taking this team over was find a way to make our goaltending costs go down. With what Khudobin did last season, he's a tremendous bet to be a productive player next year. Even saying in house and making Peters his backup would have been advisable to the situation we're in now where we're going to have a few million on the bench every night regardless. Francis was presented with a way out of that nonsense and didn't take it.

While I agree the goalie situation (financially) isn't good, what was the way he presented? Hard for me to make a judgement without understanding the details (and what financial restrictions PK is putting on him).

 

[faulkingdynamic]

This is Francis's team. He already knows all the players including their weaknesses and strengths. He has no excuse to sit on a losing roster except for arguably the most likely reason jr did nothing. Pk and a budget. He gets no pass for me because he's new on the job tho. He's been part of this team for years. If people are giving away players this season I expect him to find a way to get involved. If we go into next season with mostly the same squad I have no expectations of next season other than the 5-10 pick.

And what if Peters actually wants most of this roster to start? Does that change your opinion? I assume you'd like the coach's input on rosters.

While it is largely the same roster.. the context is much different

 

[Identity404]

It's just frustrating because there are other teams making moves to improve their situations. Tampa shed about $13 million in what they considered dead weight with a few moves and came away with some draft picks in the process. Francis has been watching this team for more than a few months. He knows that what we had on the ice last year was damn near toxic. Teams are utilizing waivers and buyouts to position themselves to bring in players that fit their vision. Trades and other things. We're doing none of these things, will be virtually inactive in free agency aside from replacing our 14th and 15th forwards and getting some help for our bottom line.

The frustration is that Francis has *also* come out and said that he liked his group. But nobody really wants to focus on that right now. The change for the sake of change at the helm has quieted the minions who were expecting JR to blow this team up if he was still here. Cam Ward was all but gone in our minds. One of the Staal brothers all but traded. Jeff Skinner perhaps being dangled to change up the makeup of the team. Several different paths that could have been taken. And as long as Ron Francis was sitting at the head of the draft table, the draft picks come down to his final decision. If he didn't like the direction, he could have changed it. All this throwback to Rutherford's mistakes and hand in what this team has done to this point is sparing Francis of any responsibility when he has all the autonomy in the world to make changes if he wants to make them. He just isn't doing it.

The first thing any reputable GM would have done when taking this team over was find a way to make our goaltending costs go down. With what Khudobin did last season, he's a tremendous bet to be a productive player next year. Even saying in house and making Peters his backup would have been advisable to the situation we're in now where we're going to have a few million on the bench every night regardless. Francis was presented with a way out of that nonsense and didn't take it.

Francis doesn't have the monetary resources to be making the moves that Yzerman made. If we did we would have used a buyout on Ward already.

Mckenzie and other reputable sources have come out and said that Francis is shopping Ward. It takes another party to make a trade. The UFA goaltending market is pretty strong (Miller, Hiller) and there are some other guys rumored to be available (Riemer). That is on top of Ward having a terrible contract and no trade clause. What proof do you have that Francis had a way to move Ward and decided against it? All signs have been pointing the other way.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Francis doesn't have the monetary resources to be making the moves that Yzerman made. If we did we would have used a buyout on Ward already.

Mckenzie and other reputable sources have come out and said that Francis is shopping Ward. It takes another party to make a trade. The UFA goaltending market is pretty strong (Miller, Hiller) and there are some other guys rumored to be available (Riemer). That is on top of Ward having a terrible contract and no trade clause. What proof do you have that Francis had a way to move Ward and decided against it? All signs have been pointing the other way.

For the sake of complete information in this discussion, McKenzie came out today and said that we are no longer shopping Ward, and that unless something changes we can expect him to be in Carolina at the beginning of the season.

He also said that Calgary was interested but that we walked away.

I agree with Vagrant there, I'd like him traded if at all possible. But this "you all are being fooled by the man" business is a little much, considering nothing has had much of an opportunity to happen yet anyway.

Not to mention, they probably would've made us eat a good bit of salary, which would be sucky.

 

[Vagrant]

So RF should have made changes at all costs...no matter the long standing impact just to prove he isn't JR? Sorry but that isn't the quality leadership we all want here. Francis deserves time to remake this team in his vision. Asking and demanding he do it in his first two months is insane. And if Ward plays well in Calgary and we get nothing but cap space to overpay a terrible UFA class.. this board skewers him. He should be afforded the time the implement his vision. And this draft doesn't look like a JR draft to me... it looks like guys with skating ability, intangibles, and good hockey IQ(something JR never freakin drafted). On top of that...this years scouting process was dictated by JR not Francis

The thing about Ron Francis as an in-house candidate is that he has been watching this team be as frustratingly inconsistent and lackluster for a long time. He hasn't been here three months, he has been here for several years. And what Cam Ward would do in Calgary is irrelevant to what he would have done in Raleigh. Right now he is a $6 million bike lock around Anton Khudobin's neck. Moving on from him being the starter here was the right decision and one that JR half committed to with Khudobin's extension and likely would have followed up on this offseason. But Francis wants a year of stasis to see what players do for Bill Peters, which is foolish in my opinion. It's basically laying all the blame at the feet of the coaching staff and saying "these guys are good enough to win", when history has proven time and time again that this group for whatever reason isn't good enough.

My question is this: why waste a year of all our lives watching the same team that has shat the bed so incredibly badly the past few years? At this point I am advocating change for the sake of change. Even if it blew up on us, it's a move made in good faith after tiring of seeing the same old team produce the same old results.

 

[bleedgreen]

And what if Peters actually wants most of this roster to start? Does that change your opinion? I assume you'd like the coach's input on rosters.

While it is largely the same roster.. the context is much different

I think he probably got the job because Francis told him this is the roster he had and he was fine with that. Doesn't mean he actually wants the same roster. Who really thinks the same roster with a different coach is changing our team into a playoff team?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I understand what you are saying Vagrant, but I'll give it a year with a new coach, then I'm with you.

Ultimately, what I want to see from Francis is a team that puts a lot of focus on drafting and developing players and sticks to that model. To me, that's the only way this team can be consistently successful as we won't get the top UFAs, we won't have the flexibility to buy guys out and we won't have the financial resources of other teams.

Once you have that in place, then you can add pieces here and there to put a team over the top IMO.

 

[bleedgreen]

I'm with vagrant. The reason we have Francis and peters was the need for change. It's ridiculous to stop there. We have been stagnant. Change it up.

 

[rocky7]

I expect that no matter what Francis does or doesn't do, and no matter if the team is successful or not, everyone here will continue to follow and support them like always.

I wonder how ticket sales are going and how much "time" they really do have.


also, while there is still time to judge, based on actions and statements thus far, I really think that they think that this team is just fine, needs to try harder and just win a handful more games a season.

mediocre......

edit: Francis isn't a new guy that just came in.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

You see Ward as a bikelock around Khudobin's neck, but it could just as easily be insurance if Khudobin struggles. It may not seem like it, but this IS still a goaltender that has yet to play more than 40 games in a season.

If Khudobin does struggle, it's better to have Ward back there than Peters or an untested goaltender who might not understand that the Canes have a different concept of defense compared to the rest of the league.

Last season was either the fault of the coach or the players. Since we've moved on from that coach, it only makes sense to see if that changes things for the better. If it doesn't, the players are obviously to blame and then they can move on from there.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I think he probably got the job because Francis told him this is the roster he had and he was fine with that. Doesn't mean he actually wants the same roster. Who really thinks the same roster with a different coach is changing our team into a playoff team?

No one, but are YOU really expecting that no matter what moves Francis makes, we're a playoff team anyway?

Can we at least wait to see for more than 3 months if his vision is worth anything? We already went giant dman in the top 10 with a son of a good player on the board, which is a drastic change from the old guard, but Vagrant's already made his feelings about THAT change completely well-known.

You guys might be right. Francis might suck, and we're all just fooled and going goo-goo-eyed over our favorite former player. But the fact that our roster isn't entirely and completely different than it was 3 months ago shouldn't be a cause for concern.

There are so many explanations for what's happened so far. Like you said, Francis has been around the team for awhile now. YOU haven't. Francis might see that Staal is being blatantly complacent because he's got JR's ball in a vice. Maybe he's keeping him around to see how he plays when he's motivated and knows his playing time/job might actually be on the line. Maybe Muller hated Ward, and Francis wants to see what happens when he plays under a coach that will give him a fair shake/get the best out of them. You can be around a team and still not be able to see every player as a completely known commodity. I'm fine with him feeling out the team, seeing what he's got from there, and making his moves accordingly. Better than blowing everything up and seeing Staal win the Art Ross for Nashville and Ward the Vezina for Calgary, no? (Before we get up in arms about that last sentence that was hyperbole, but you get my point...)

 

[Buenos Necas]

Not to mention, you want a non-JR top 10 pick? We take a rangy, giant dman at 7th overall when you've got an under 6-foot, skilled, almost-NHL-ready forward, who happens to be the son of a former NHL player, sitting on the board in Nylander.

And when asked about Kapanen, Rutherford said that they had him ranked 7th. I may be reading too much into that, but I took that as a subtle suggestion of what he would have done with the 7th pick. Then again, for all we know they may have had Fleury rated 5th or 6th, but thought it was an interesting comment from JR.

 

[Vagrant]

This is Francis's team. He already knows all the players including their weaknesses and strengths. He has no excuse to sit on a losing roster except for arguably the most likely reason jr did nothing. Pk and a budget. He gets no pass for me because he's new on the job tho. He's been part of this team for years. If people are giving away players this season I expect him to find a way to get involved. If we go into next season with mostly the same squad I have no expectations of next season other than the 5-10 pick.

I don't know what it means that we're so frequently finding ourselves on the same side of issues these days, but this is right on. My only caveat is that if budget is the problem, we have a few attractive players that make a lot of money that could be potentially shopped for players that would bring a different element. If Francis hung a for sale sign around Eric or Jordan's neck, he'd get some offers that would probably make him think about it. That's not really so much a decision that's restricted to budget as much as it is restricted to creativity. I'm pretty confident that we're not touching our Top 6 forwards and we're not touching our Top 4 defense. For a team that sucked so badly last year that seems unacceptable to me. Changing the window dressing around a team that has proven themselves incapable of playing winning hockey is a mistake no matter how you put it.

It comes down to faith being placed in the wrong players. Refusal to give up on the Staal experiment. Faith that Ward will miraculously recover into being the starter again. Faith that Skinner doesn't need a center and can play on our third line and still produce 30+ goals. It just looks too much like an invitation to repeat last season, only the cast of characters in the bottom six will have changed.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don't think anyone's going to give him a pass if we come to this point next season and nothing has changed. The lack of outrage is, IMO, mostly based on patience with the process of changing directions.

When we say he "hasn't done anything", we're talking about a guy who has already effectively carved off the bottom 3rd of our roster. If we were to create a depth chart for what Francis inherited:

Eric Staal
Alex Semin
Jeff Skinner
Jordan Staal
Nathan Gerbe
Elias Lindholm
Patrick Dwyer
Riley Nash
Jiri Tlusty
Andrei Loktionov
Manny Malhotra
Radek Dvorak
Drayson Bowman
Chris Terry
Zach Boychuk

Andrej Sekera
Justin Faulk
J-M Liles
Jay Harrison
Ryan Murphy
Brett Bellemore
Mike Komisarek
Mark Flood

Anton Khudobin
Cam Ward
Justin Peters
Mike Murphy


Is it change from the top-down... no. But it's hardly keeping to the status quo either. How Francis chooses to replace these players will have a tremendous impact on the constitution of this team. And that can't happen until tomorrow at the earliest.

 

[Identity404]

For the sake of complete information in this discussion, McKenzie came out today and said that we are no longer shopping Ward, and that unless something changes we can expect him to be in Carolina at the beginning of the season.

He also said that Calgary was interested but that we walked away.

I agree with Vagrant there, I'd like him traded if at all possible. But this "you all are being fooled by the man" business is a little much, considering nothing has had much of an opportunity to happen yet anyway.

Not to mention, they probably would've made us eat a good bit of salary, which would be sucky.

Ah, I missed those. From the sounds of his tweets it seems that we were considering buyout/salary retention route but now decided to just stay the course and see what happens with Ward/Khudobin.

I'll take back what I said in regards to Ward and agree with Vagrant. It seems foolish to go that route with Ward. McKenzie even said to expect Ward to be our 1G next year? Sounds like we are already created a goaltending controversy we don't need.

 

[tarheelhockey]

If Francis hung a for sale sign around Eric or Jordan's neck, he'd get some offers that would probably make him think about it. That's not really so much a decision that's restricted to budget as much as it is restricted to creativity. I'm pretty confident that we're not touching our Top 6 forwards and we're not touching our Top 4 defense. For a team that sucked so badly last year that seems unacceptable to me. Changing the window dressing around a team that has proven themselves incapable of playing winning hockey is a mistake no matter how you put it.

Francis has hardly committed himself to keeping the Staals or any other top-6'er in Raleigh. Every time he's asked, he makes it clear that he's willing to entertain those types of changes if they make sense for the team as a whole.

If something like that happens, it certainly won't happen before UFA even opens. It would take something like what Jim Rutherford just did to the Penguins, throwing out an offer that the other team simply can't reject.

 

[Vagrant]

You see Ward as a bikelock around Khudobin's neck, but it could just as easily be insurance if Khudobin struggles. It may not seem like it, but this IS still a goaltender that has yet to play more than 40 games in a season.

If Khudobin does struggle, it's better to have Ward back there than Peters or an untested goaltender who might not understand that the Canes have a different concept of defense compared to the rest of the league.

Last season was either the fault of the coach or the players. Since we've moved on from that coach, it only makes sense to see if that changes things for the better. If it doesn't, the players are obviously to blame and then they can move on from there.

I understand that it's a risk to go into a season with Khudobin and Peters as your tandem. But based on recent history, those two guys produced last season. Bottom line. They earned the net. When Ward came back healthy he was given the net back without having to compete for it as much. Peters was jettisoned to being a practice goaltender for salary reasons. I understand the point about Khudobin's inexperience, but if your insurance policy costs more than what you're insuring against then you've probably made a mistake. If we can't do better than $6.3 million for insurance that Khudobin wasn't a one year wonder I would be surprised. It might would have taken some creativity to land Cam in Calgary in terms of salary retention or other considerations, but it would have been worth it in the end.

The reason we're not hyper competitive in free agency is because Rutherford has notoriously spent all his money prior to July 1st locked up in the same core group. Keeping his favorites at all costs. The one year we had money to spend we ended up landing Alexander Semin. Do you think that Yzerman thought he was making his team better by dumping Purcell for nothing and then retaining salary on Gagner? Trading a contributor in Nate Thompson for two draft picks? Of course not. But he has a vision for what he wants. He has targets identified and he wants to make sure that when the clock strikes noon on July 1st he has the resources available to make the moves he wants to make. Those kind of decisions take balls. The ability to adjust on the fly and find suitable homes for players you think you can improve upon.

This isn't JR's team anymore. Francis could scrap the entire thing if he wanted. And there are a lot of GMs this offseason who have found ways out of precarious contract situations that didn't involve them retaining 50% of salary. We just haven't been in on that action.

 

[bleedgreen]

For everyone that's going too deep into this. All im saying is that Francis doesn't get 2 years from me personally, I expect him do what it takes immediately vs "analyzing" our roster for a season or two because he's already seen it.

I'm not pissed he hasn't done anything yet. Then off season has barely started. Plenty of time for things to go right, just saying if we go into next season the same I want go easy about it.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

So, am I correct in assuming we aren't gonna qualify Lokti?

 

[Buenos Necas]

Chip Alexander ‏@ice_chip 1m
GM Ron Francis says he does not expect Canes to be "aggressive" tomorrow. Probably will look for depth D, fourth-line center on FA 1st day.

How about 3C and top-4 D?


Also on RFA qualifying offers:

Chip Alexander ‏@ice_chip 1m
Francis said Canes still teetering on one RFA decision. Said names of those getting qualifying offers should be released later today.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

I'll be disappoint if we don't make Richards an offer. Would Like Rostislav Klesla as well.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don't think he needs "analysis" time either... that should have all been done by now. I'm expecting to see movement this summer, just not in June.