Yes, I know. But he does not particularly use it around the next the way that one would hope.
Confirmed with Link: New York Rangers Sign Adam Fox to Entry Level Deal
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- Jul 16, 2005
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SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
I don't have access. But I would have to guess:
Matthews, Laine, Tkachuk, McAvoy, Keller, Segachev, DeBrincat, Girard?
Zibanejbread
Rebuilding.
1. Matthews
2. Laine
3. Tkachuk
4. Keller
5. Dubois
6. DeBrincat
7. McAvoy
8. Sergachev
I guess my thinking is that maybe these days we need to rethink how we consider what 1st pairing or 1 D men are. If a guy spends all of his shifts with the puck on his stick making things happen offensively and is just considered "ok" defensively without the puck and is undersized...we don't seem ready to consider that a top level player unless they're so far off the charts like Karlsson was that you can't ignore it (and even then he got a ton of crap for being a "4th forward".
I'm thinking more and more that I'm less concerned about a big body who can "play defense without the puck" and more concerned with guys who can quickly recover the puck and start a breakout or transition and then can keep the other team on their heels. If someone like Fox loses some battles in front of the net or on the boards but spends the vast majority of his time pushing the puck back up the ice the other way, putting up points, and denying clean entries into the Rangers D zone (which apparently he's good at), then I'll take him playing 25 minutes per night over a guy who wins some more battles but can't move the puck well enough and so spends all his time having to win battles.
Sure, the ideal defenseman is a guy who's big, skates like the wind, nasty in physical areas, has hockey IQ like no one else, a cannon for a shot, etc etc, but if you hold out for one of those guys then you're going to be waiting a real long time in many cases.
Basically I"ll take 25 minutes of a guy who's gonna put up points and keep the Rangers playing offense most of the time over 25 minutes of a guy who's going to try to be defending in his own zone most of the time.
edit: and this is all because Wheeler said he felt Fox could be a 1D with those qualities. I'm not ready to jump on that bandwagon yet, I think the most likely thing if Fox succeeds will be as a PP QB and strong 2nd pair puck mover or complimentary 1st pair guy, but again...people seem to ignore the crazy numbers Fox did put up and focus on him being on the smaller side and not a world class skater, merely "good".
I'm thinking more and more that I'm less concerned about a big body who can "play defense without the puck" and more concerned with guys who can quickly recover the puck and start a breakout or transition and then can keep the other team on their heels. If someone like Fox loses some battles in front of the net or on the boards but spends the vast majority of his time pushing the puck back up the ice the other way, putting up points, and denying clean entries into the Rangers D zone (which apparently he's good at), then I'll take him playing 25 minutes per night over a guy who wins some more battles but can't move the puck well enough and so spends all his time having to win battles.
Sure, the ideal defenseman is a guy who's big, skates like the wind, nasty in physical areas, has hockey IQ like no one else, a cannon for a shot, etc etc, but if you hold out for one of those guys then you're going to be waiting a real long time in many cases.
Basically I"ll take 25 minutes of a guy who's gonna put up points and keep the Rangers playing offense most of the time over 25 minutes of a guy who's going to try to be defending in his own zone most of the time.
edit: and this is all because Wheeler said he felt Fox could be a 1D with those qualities. I'm not ready to jump on that bandwagon yet, I think the most likely thing if Fox succeeds will be as a PP QB and strong 2nd pair puck mover or complimentary 1st pair guy, but again...people seem to ignore the crazy numbers Fox did put up and focus on him being on the smaller side and not a world class skater, merely "good".
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
I don't have any problems with considering guys whose primary strength is puck movement and transition as 1D. However, a 1D better be able to PK. To me, a hallmark of 1D is the ability to play in all situations. Karlsson can do it. I'm not totally sure that Fox will be able to. We will see.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Howden at 25 makes me laugh a little.
Even if you don't view him as being in the top half, which is fine, a quick glance at that draft doesn't show me 24 names I would take over Howden at this point.
Most of EK's detractors were Leafs fans, Habs fans, or grumpy old Canadians who enjoy the game played a certain way.
But you're right overall. Top pairing D are guys who drive play in a positive manner against the toughest of competition regardless of size/weight/whatever. It can be because they're spending most of their time in the offensive zone or because they're completely suffocating the other team's top players (not in the way that people say Girardi did or some think Staal does now.)
I'm going to go off on a tangent a bit here but the one thing we need to avoid is becoming too homogenous on D. A group thats mostly filled with undersized, slick puck movers are going to get killed along the walls/infront of the net but a group of meat shield grunts are going to kill the transition game. We're running the risk of that happening on the right side, which is why I think some of us are really hoping that we get a bigger, meaner type of D to play on that side along whom ever sticks out of the smaller type (as long as they can skate and move a puck.)
LORDE
I am Lorde, YA YA YA
Agree with all of this but skating is necessary in ALL of what u describe and he’s not deft (supposedly) in that area. Now maybe it’s overstated and can be corrected (or at least improved on) but until someone can skate at an elite level it’s tough (impossible?) to be a #1 or even strong #2 without being able to win some battles. IMO
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
A lot of the debate about first pair vs. second pair, first line vs. second line also comes down little nuances in perception.
Sometimes it's the difference between believing that a prospect "can" potentially play in the higher role versus whether said prospect "should" ideally play in that role. Other times is the difference between someone being like more likely to attain a certain level.
Then there's factors like pairings, chemistry, systems, etc.
So then it comes down to expectations. When I see a kid like Fox, I don't know if I expect him to become a top pair defenseman. But it's certainly possible, even if not quite probable.
Sometimes it's the difference between believing that a prospect "can" potentially play in the higher role versus whether said prospect "should" ideally play in that role. Other times is the difference between someone being like more likely to attain a certain level.
Then there's factors like pairings, chemistry, systems, etc.
So then it comes down to expectations. When I see a kid like Fox, I don't know if I expect him to become a top pair defenseman. But it's certainly possible, even if not quite probable.
I actually do think Fox's average size / skating ability will probably limit him somewhat. If you look at the guys who have won the Norris trophy or who finish in the top 10 in voting, basically all of them were either 1) big or 2) a great skater. It's tough to imagine someone shutting down a guy like MacKinnon for 7 games based on hockey sense alone. So, based on that, it seems to me like it should be pretty unlikely that Fox ends up being the kind of player who finishes in the top-10 of Norris voting.
Still, there's a lot of room below that to be a very good player. Anton Stralman was basically the same size as Fox and didn't have great speed but still turned into a very effective defenseman. If you had a guy who defended like that but was also one of the best players in the NHL at running a power play, that would be an incredibly valuable player.
Beyond that, part of me thinks it's foolish to try and be so "paint by the numbers" in evaluating prospects. I think the best players are defined moreso by the ability to play to strengths that their opponents can't stop than the absence of weaknesses or a balanced skillset. The best player in hockey history had relatively average size and speed and the best defenseman in the modern NHL was driven moreso by his hockey sense and stickwork than his skating ability or size. I'm obviously not saying Fox is anywhere close to Gretzky or Lidstrom, just that part of me thinks that putting too much focus on the toolbox can be a shortsighted way to evaluate prospects.
So I think there's uncertainty about how much Fox will be able to overcome his average size / skating ability with his hockey sense. I expect it will probably limit him somewhat, but he did just have an outrageously dominant season in the NCAA - leading the entire league in points per game while scoring over 50% more than the next best player on a tournament-qualifying team, preventing the opposing team from entering the zone with control 70% of the time while exiting his team's zone with control 80% of the time, and helping his team score twice as often as their opponent when he was on the ice - and I'm really excited to see what kind of player he turns into after adjusting to the NHL.
Still, there's a lot of room below that to be a very good player. Anton Stralman was basically the same size as Fox and didn't have great speed but still turned into a very effective defenseman. If you had a guy who defended like that but was also one of the best players in the NHL at running a power play, that would be an incredibly valuable player.
Beyond that, part of me thinks it's foolish to try and be so "paint by the numbers" in evaluating prospects. I think the best players are defined moreso by the ability to play to strengths that their opponents can't stop than the absence of weaknesses or a balanced skillset. The best player in hockey history had relatively average size and speed and the best defenseman in the modern NHL was driven moreso by his hockey sense and stickwork than his skating ability or size. I'm obviously not saying Fox is anywhere close to Gretzky or Lidstrom, just that part of me thinks that putting too much focus on the toolbox can be a shortsighted way to evaluate prospects.
So I think there's uncertainty about how much Fox will be able to overcome his average size / skating ability with his hockey sense. I expect it will probably limit him somewhat, but he did just have an outrageously dominant season in the NCAA - leading the entire league in points per game while scoring over 50% more than the next best player on a tournament-qualifying team, preventing the opposing team from entering the zone with control 70% of the time while exiting his team's zone with control 80% of the time, and helping his team score twice as often as their opponent when he was on the ice - and I'm really excited to see what kind of player he turns into after adjusting to the NHL.
For the size/skating arguments for elite talent, imo mental toughness is what separates them all and you don’t know until they’re in the show. Look at what Krug has done. Even Deangelo (as far as making an impact, not that he’s anywhere near elite).
You need to think the game. On the flip side, I look at Vesey and wonder if he had a better sense and mental edge in the pros, if he could have been the top 6 player some projected.
You need to think the game. On the flip side, I look at Vesey and wonder if he had a better sense and mental edge in the pros, if he could have been the top 6 player some projected.
Captain Monglobster
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- Nov 9, 2005
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Guys like Schneider and Zubov didnt skate like the wind and were still very effective putting up pts from the blue line. Yea, I know, different era. There is a difference between speed and agility.
If Fox ends up somewhere between those two in terms of skill ill be thrilled.
If Fox ends up somewhere between those two in terms of skill ill be thrilled.
Nordiques1979
Registered User
I was thinking the same thing, but I'm still insanely psyched about him. He's our best offensive D prospect in god knows how long
- Jul 20, 2005
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Do that pass in the NHL and worst case it gets deflected into the stands. That's exactly the type of cross ice pass that I want a D to make, in the offensive zone and with no D between the puck and the net.
Irishguy42
Mr. Preachy
Yes, but being able to recognize good passing lanes and where your teammates are moving to is a translatable skill.
That's the real meaning behind that Pronman post.
Last edited:
Amazing Kreiderman
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I saw McAvoy make that same play last week in the Cup final
So, you're stalking McAvoy now.
No limits for you. Zero ****'s given. I like it.
Amazing Kreiderman
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Well, on TV haha. I am in Vienna until next week Thursday before I fly to Vancouver. No other trips planned until then haha
Everytime something cool happens outside of the NHL, it's always, "That would NEVER work in the NHL!" And then you see shit just like it happen in the NHL. Players at the NHL level still make mistakes; it's not easy to knock a saucer out of mid-air. I remember Zibanejad, shortly after we first acquired him, he made some ridiculous pass on the backhand, a saucer pass over two defender's sticks or something, that landed right on the tape of a guy in front. If that was random WHL guy making the pass people would write it off as junior hockey and you'd never be able to do that in the NHL.
As Irish said, it's the recognition of passing lanes, the awareness of where your teammates are on the ice, the actual physical skill to execute the things your mind comes up with, etc. I'm not saying that pass will work every time in the NHL; sometimes it will and others it could easily turn into a rush the other way. However, the point is that he was able to see that whole play develop and execute it. He's a smart player, and if he makes mistakes in the NHL on things like that, the will recognize and correct it, hopefully.
TheBloodyNine
Pure Bred Soviet Savage
You literally said this same thing after a Kaako post of him on a breakaway in practice...
BKGooner
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You know Kravstov is going to be at the official draft party in New York. ah crap, just made myself an accessory.
Amazing Kreiderman
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