Speculation: New Morgan Rielly Discussion (no longer a fringe movement)

[IPS]

He's good offensively, but badly needs to improve defensively. He's not playing like a #1 Dman, not even a 1B which is what we need him to be.

He's literally playing like a slightly better version of Tyson Barrie, it's not going to cut it. Not for 7.5M

This is absolutely a story, this team looked completely different in the games he was out. There was a real structure and it was consistent. Now since he came back there's been some huge mistakes and coincidentally he's been on for pretty much every single on of them. He's always out of position, pinches on the blue line even when he doesn't have a winger to support him and somehow still has not learned how to defend an odd-man rush.

Gotta say the pure optics do look really bad.

While Rielly was out with injury, the Leafs averaged 2.13 GA / GP

The 4 games Rielly's been back, the Leafs are 4.5 GA / GP and everybody's back to trashing the goalies non-stop.

 

[ToneDog]

Zero chance their kid is not going to be an elite skater

MSN

www.msn.com

In twenty years when physicality is all but gone, their kid will be dancing circles around players and scoring goals in bushels.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I like Morgan Rielly. I always have. I'm not going to be down on him because he's having a down season. He's always been fairly good in the playoffs. Let's hope he has his best moments then.

If you're going to mention Tessa Virtue at least post a couple of pictures.

Thanks (in advance).

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

I blame Tessa for stealing Morgan's virtue. Not surprised he has no leg strength when he wakes up.

 

[ULF_55]

Which goalies do you blame? Current ones?

I blame Hildeby.

Has a player ever signed an 8 year deal with full NMC and waived it in the first year so he could be traded?

Thinking he’ll be moved is pretty unrealistic at this point.

The team just has to play better.

Rielly isn't some saviour, he's just a good defenseman with known warts.

He is never going to be a defensive answer.

They have to build their defense to support him, not rely on him.

The now:
Rielly, Brodie, Giordano, Holl - veterans who are what they are

The future:
Sandin, Liljegren, Timmins - developing players, and the key to future success

The injury fill-ins:
Benn, Mete and Marlies

 

[Stephen]

Why are you comparing all goalies to exclusively "Norris Trophy level defensemen"?
I mean, this market likes irrationally chasing out all kinds of players, but defensemen definitely get it the worst.

I'm only responding to your scapegoating of goalies. Why do you act like this market is so irrationally picky when the quality we've had on defense (and in goal) has not been high? We're not complaining about Cale Makar, now are we?

 

[Stephen]

He's good offensively, but badly needs to improve defensively. He's not playing like a #1 Dman, not even a 1B which is what we need him to be.

He's literally playing like a slightly better version of Tyson Barrie, it's not going to cut it. Not for 7.5M

This is absolutely a story, this team looked completely different in the games he was out. There was a real structure and it was consistent. Now since he came back there's been some huge mistakes and coincidentally he's been on for pretty much every single on of them. He's always out of position, pinches on the blue line even when he doesn't have a winger to support him and somehow still has not learned how to defend an odd-man rush.

This conversation around Morgan Rielly reminds me a lot of Dion Phaneuf talk actually. Not the style of player, but his long tenure, high status on the Leafs kind of puts up this immunity shield where some people feel it's wrong to criticize. Every time an aspect of his game gets brought up, you need the polite preamble about how he's a good player, valued member of the room, well liked in the community, stand up guy etc. before making some point about his 2 on 1 coverage.

You'd also have a hard time ranking Rielly among other number one defensemen in the game due to all the reputational fog. Historically there's been so much talk about how he needs a D partner worthy of his status, etc. But true number one defensemen are also great babysitters who can lift up all the junk partners around them.

At the end of the day, Rielly has pros and cons. We can keep him, no one's running him out of town, but if they moved on from him life also goes on. Just don't act all scandalized when he's playing poorly and people have thoughts.

 

[crump]

Yes it’s fringe, it’s cringe, go binge

 

[ULF_55]

I'm only responding to your scapegoating of goalies. Why do you act like this market is so irrationally picky when the quality we've had on defense (and in goal) has not been high? We're not complaining about Cale Makar, now are we?

I think Rielly has been set as for what he is, for several years now.
He got quite a few offensive Norris votes when he was playing with ?Hainsey?, and that was 2018-2019.
I really think we just have to accept what he is.
Erik Karlsson won 2 Norris Trophies, but it wasn't because he played good defense.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Yes it’s fringe, it’s cringe, go binge

K eep
E very
E valuation
F ringe
E nough

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I think Rielly has been set as for what he is, for several years now.
He got quite a few offensive Norris votes when he was playing with ?Hainsey?, and that was 2018-2019.
I really think we just have to accept what he is.
Erik Karlsson won 2 Norris Trophies, but it wasn't because he played good defense.

I've heard plenty of Eric Karlsson jeers when he was having a few rough seasons.

It's just hard as heck to stay on top every season. Sometimes injuries do to good players. You just hope they fight through some how.

 

[Hellcat]

I blame Tessa for stealing Morgan's virtue. Not surprised he has no leg strength when he wakes up.

HaHa! I see what you did there.. very dad jokey .... BRAVO!!!!

 

[Leafsfan74]

Love this!! Keep it real, though... Dude's been awful. This isn't controversial. At all.. in the slightest.. even for this site. We can all reason that the lack of effort, conditioning and defensive skill are all well-established calling cards of Big Morgs, at the best of times. These aren't even those, here.

Nice PP distributor, decent transition guy, leads the league in unforced icings I'm sure, but other than that - reasonable puck mover when he wants to be. That's about all we can say for him.

You know, if I want to be controversial for real - I would instead ask who the common denominator is for all the Leafs losing you can name in the last 2 regimes? There's only one guy that's been there for both. He just got that stink on him, unfortunately. I would trade him for almost anything in the NHL for that reason alone - but especially his equivalent perceived value in a LW. He strikes me as the guy that welcomes every new leaf with any ounce of spunk into the room and tells 'em, "hey bud - just chill - it's nice here - we have everything.. don't make us look bad. Just play the role, put on a show - and we'll go home to our lady friends. Sound good?" Too bad Van doesnt have a good enough LW, cuz Mr "I'll take the easy road for $1000 Alex" would only leave this cushy org for one closer to his upbringing probably. I mean, only Morgs would take such a perceived discount to return to this hellhole of losing - even the young guys know better than that.

But I wouldn't say all that. Just the first 2 paragraphs.

Well, it's not as if a person has to have a mean disposition off of the ice, being a team of "nice guys" isn't the problem, the issue is translating ones passion and hate per se for losing to the ice when the chips are down. This isn't just on Reilly, but he needs to be a large part of this broader gear shift and attitude.

To use a crude, exaggerated example, nice Canadian, UK and American men had to inflict the most severe of consequences against the enemy during WII. I've watched enough interviews of these men decades later to see they were good men.

Take a similar attitude during a playoff series in particular and the opponent becomes the "bad guy" who you must defeat. This requires sound decision making and yes, some dislike of the other team.

 

[ACC1224]

As long as there are lawyers and people willing to change rules, there is no contract that can't be broken.

I don’t think you understand how these contracts work. You think a lawyer is going to magically remove a NMC?
Maybe you’re too young to remember but the Muskoka 5 is a prime example of not being able to move players just because you want to.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I blame Hildeby.


The team just has to play better.

Rielly isn't some saviour, he's just a good defenseman with known warts.

He is never going to be a defensive answer.

They have to build their defense to support him, not rely on him.

The now:
Rielly, Brodie, Giordano, Holl - veterans who are what they are

The future:
Sandin, Liljegren, Timmins - developing players, and the key to future success

The injury fill-ins:
Benn, Mete and Marlies

Why do they have to build their defense to support him? Does anyone else do that with their defense, build it to cater to one guy's glaring weaknesses that he refuses to fix?

I would at least understand doing that if you were talking about a generational 100+ point D that had a weak defensive game but the best case scenario upside on bending over backwards to babysit Rielly is what, 70-something points from the guy?

 

[ULF_55]

Why do they have to build their defense to support him? Does anyone else do that with their defense, build it to cater to one guy's glaring weaknesses that he refuses to fix?

I would at least understand doing that if you were talking about a generational 100+ point D that had a weak defensive game but the best case scenario upside on bending over backwards to babysit Rielly is what, 70-something points from the guy?

Because he is what he is, and that is a good defenseman under contract for another 7 years.
He is unlikely to fix anything.
It might be different if he had been a player who had to struggle and fight (I don't mean throwing lefts and rights type of fight) his way for everything thing he accomplished. Just my opinion, but I think he's really slipstreamed his way along with his talent.
I'm not sure Brodie is the partner for him, Brodie was for Giordano in Calgary, but I think Giordano has more tools than Rielly. Brodie was also 28 years old when Giordano won his Norris. Brodie is 32, and that's downside, not prime.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I'm only responding to your scapegoating of goalies. Why do you act like this market is so irrationally picky when the quality we've had on defense (and in goal) has not been high? We're not complaining about Cale Makar, now are we?

I don't scapegoat goalies. I apply blame appropriately, based on where the fault factually lies.
For example, one game this week was more on the defense, and one game this week was more on the goalie.
Unfortunately, many people just latch on to a position or player and blame that for everything, regardless of what actually happened.
I act like this market is irrationally picky because this market is irrationally picky. Quality doesn't seem to matter. We've had high quality defense for years.
No, we're not here complaining about Cale Makar, but based on some of the arguments against Rielly, we would be if he was a Leaf.
And more importantly, we shouldn't need a defense full of Cale Makars for people to be happy with what they have.

 

[LeafsNation75]

This conversation around Morgan Rielly reminds me a lot of Dion Phaneuf talk actually. Not the style of player, but his long tenure, high status on the Leafs kind of puts up this immunity shield where some people feel it's wrong to criticize. Every time an aspect of his game gets brought up, you need the polite preamble about how he's a good player, valued member of the room, well liked in the community, stand up guy etc. before making some point about his 2 on 1 coverage.

You'd also have a hard time ranking Rielly among other number one defensemen in the game due to all the reputational fog. Historically there's been so much talk about how he needs a D partner worthy of his status, etc. But true number one defensemen are also great babysitters who can lift up all the junk partners around them.

At the end of the day, Rielly has pros and cons. We can keep him, no one's running him out of town, but if they moved on from him life also goes on. Just don't act all scandalized when he's playing poorly and people have thoughts.

One major difference is Phaneuf was a former Leafs captain and apart of some bad teams, if you want to ignore the 2013 team who made the playoffs.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Because he is what he is, and that is a good defenseman under contract for another 7 years.
He is unlikely to fix anything.
It might be different if he had been a player who had to struggle and fight (I don't mean throwing lefts and rights type of fight) his way for everything thing he accomplished. Just my opinion, but I think he's really slipstreamed his way along with his talent.
I'm not sure Brodie is the partner for him, Brodie was for Giordano in Calgary, but I think Giordano has more tools than Rielly. Brodie was also 28 years old when Giordano won his Norris. Brodie is 32, and that's downside, not prime.

Yeah but I mean Colorado didn't force build around making Johnson or Barrie work at all costs, one was moved and one was slotted down. I'd rather add someone who can push Rielly down a slot than spend the same money on someone who's better than Brodie at babysitting him.

Towes and Manson cost roughly the same cap and picks when they were acquired, "building to support Rielly" is more the Manson trade than the Towes one, which would be really disappointing if we could only afford to get one of them.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I don't scapegoat goalies. I apply blame appropriately, based on where the fault factually lies.
For example, one game this week was more on the defense, and one game this week was more on the goalie.
Unfortunately, many people just latch on to a position or player and blame that for everything, regardless of what actually happened.
I act like this market is irrationally picky because this market is irrationally picky. Quality doesn't seem to matter. We've had high quality defense for years.
No, we're not here complaining about Cale Makar, but based on some of the arguments against Rielly, we would be if he was a Leaf.
And more importantly, we shouldn't need a defense full of Cale Makars for people to be happy with what they have.

Applying blame doesn't seem like you. Applying blame to me is a very emotional response. Do you mean critique or analyze?

 

[hamzarocks]

Caps won the cup in 2018 with Carlson being a 75-80 pt high octane offensive 2D who struggled hard in the d-zone.

Leafs if they win and win wirh Mo will require similar production and roster formatting

 

[ULF_55]

Yeah but I mean Colorado didn't force build around making Johnson or Barrie work at all costs, one was moved and one was slotted down. I'd rather add someone who can push Rielly down a slot than spend the same money on someone who's better than Brodie at babysitting him.

Towes and Manson cost roughly the same cap and picks when they were acquired, "building to support Rielly" is more the Manson trade than the Towes one, which would be really disappointing if we could only afford to get one of them.

I'd be okay if they acquired someone to play above Rielly at LD.
However, as others have mentioned, the money to land a better defender than Rielly has already been spent ... on Rielly.
Towes turned out to be a steal for the Avs.
At 26 Towes had his first year with the Avs.
Towes broke into the NHL at age 24, you know the same age as Timmins.

Obviously, the Leafs aren't going to restructure their team for Rielly, but they will try and complement him as much as possible to get the best ROI.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Applying blame doesn't seem like you. Applying blame to me is a very emotional response. Do you mean critique or analyze?

However you'd like to say it. The important part is applying it to the appropriate places based on what actually happens.

 

[therealkoho]

It's obviously not a Nurse level overpay, but it's still a lot and it hinders the Leafs from adding a true elite #1 caliber guy. It also might age very well depending on how much the cap goes up

Wait till they give Matthews 15m

 

[LeafsNation75]

Caps won the cup in 2018 with Carlson being a 75-80 pt high octane offensive 2D who struggled hard in the d-zone.

Leafs if they win and win wirh Mo will require similar production and roster formatting

The next year in 2019 is when Rielly had 72 points in 82 games and was 5th in Norris Trophy voting.

Since that time Rielly's offense has gone done, although part of that was due to injury in 2020 and this season, because last season he had 68 points in 82 games.