Speculation: New Morgan Rielly Discussion (no longer a fringe movement)

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

There's everything to like about Rielly. He seems like a great person and he loves being a Leaf. I just think him being likable doesn't suddenly make him a #1 quality defenseman. I think fans are really going to turn on him due to his salary and role

 

[Stonehands 1]

Yes reily is good, just not good at defence, try him on the wing

 

[Chief Leaf]

Gonna say what many dont in their assement of Morgan,

Plain and simple.

If Morgan could take a hit/or make a hit,..he would be better in what we crave to see.

Unfortanetely, we know he does not supply that and shys away from that tight board contact it takes a defenceman to come out of the grind with the puck.

This brings us to his offensive minded game which we know when given the opportunity he can move aa puck up the ice himself,...but the other problem that occurs often is,..he puts himself out of position and even though he has good intentions moving up like a winger,..if he HAD that Bang of digging into the boards when he decides to take it beyond the hash marks and further, he has no snarl if the puck or play goes deeper beyond him into a corner and a puck battle for possesion occurs,..and he loses it and is caught out of place.

Morgan imo needs to lead more in the griity/I want to own it and Sacrifice in order to lead rather than always trying to be pretty.

That goes for all the "kids" growing into men. It's gotta be guts and glory! That is the learning curve to help us grab a bigger edge.

Not only does Morgan never make a hit that makes our crowd stand up,...it is rare from anyone on the team to use that momentum swing that helps other teams grind it out.

In fairness -There has been so many D men we have lined up with Morgs and he has had to adapt without having a solid partner to totally grow with but,...imo it was a fault of never trying to attain a solid stay at home hombre that could also cover the attributes that Morgan lacks. So,...

Management imo has failed a lil bit in the Morgan development of a least not giving him that tough stay at home like i.e. Manson or someone like that who truely can cover his weaknesses of not being intimidating.

I want him to do great and root for it but sometimes the left hand side of my brain says..that's not right.

 

[mapleleaf979]

Earlier on his career, I said Rielly needed to find a way to make those off speed plays and really learn to control the tempo of a game from the back end. With old Gio you can still see that command of the game, but too often Rielly defaults to forcing plays with his athleticism rather than with control. He's a quality player, but he's very flawed too.

Very true. That is one example of Reilly exposing himself in the hockey sense department, the pinching constantly as if danger couldnt be possible. The PP also shows Reilly with no confidence, confusion, average hockey sense. He will not shoot just to shoot and mix it up intending on a rebound or deflection, instead its a very predictable pass to the half wall. That should be a dman's dream with that PP1 unit out there. With all that being said its on Keefe to control him. U are right about Gio and the command of the game, Brodie also has that, those 2 are most trustworthy dmen on the team for me.

 

[Hellcat]

I'm not.

Fringe is defined "outer edges". I am describing a minority movement. It has nothing to do with how many collectables people have.

Fringe can be the beginning of something bigger. Perhaps this group of leaf fans influence many. Then it becomes "a wave of leaf fans".

But that is not what you said, you specifically said fringe fans not fringe movement. Those two terms are completely different. Rielly is not perfect and is not and has never been an elite #1 d-man, he's a good #2. I think the critiques of his play has for the most part been fair. It's better for the Leafs to be honest with themselves about what they have than it is to fool ourselves into thinking he is an elite defender.

 

[Americanadian]

Rielly is a good hockey player. He’s not a number one defenseman and shouldn’t be paid like one. He isn’t able to elevate his partner, he needs his D partner to make up for his mistakes.

I’d trust Gio or Brodie to play with any of the Leafs current RHD (Liljegren, Holl, Timmins) but I wouldn’t trust Rielly to play with any of them.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

But that is not what you said, you specifically said fringe fans not fringe movement. Those two terms are completely different. Rielly is not perfect and is not and has never been an elite #1 d-man, he's a good #2. I think the critiques of his play has for the most part been fair. It's better for the Leafs to be honest with themselves about what they have than it is to fool ourselves into thinking he is an elite defender.

Sure. I'm don't think that has happened a whole lot these past few years. We'll see how things go after the playoffs.

 

[francis246]

There's everything to like about Rielly. He seems like a great person and he loves being a Leaf. I just think him being likable doesn't suddenly make him a #1 quality defenseman. I think fans are really going to turn on him due to his salary and role

His Salary is still really good compared to other defenseman. Like he’s still an elite defenseman that can give you 60-70 points a year when healthy. That’s easily worth $7 million. Rielly isn’t an elite #1 but he’s a #1. Just not a two way #1 goalie.

 

[Hellcat]

His Salary is still really good compared to other defenseman. Like he’s still an elite defenseman that can give you 60-70 points a year when healthy. That’s easily worth $7 million. Rielly isn’t an elite #1 but he’s a #1. Just not a two way #1 goalie.

I'm with you , I think for what he brings $7 mil is appropriate.

 

[Stephen]

Very true. That is one example of Reilly exposing himself in the hockey sense department, the pinching constantly as if danger couldnt be possible. The PP also shows Reilly with no confidence, confusion, average hockey sense. He will not shoot just to shoot and mix it up intending on a rebound or deflection, instead its a very predictable pass to the half wall. That should be a dman's dream with that PP1 unit out there. With all that being said its on Keefe to control him. U are right about Gio and the command of the game, Brodie also has that, those 2 are most trustworthy dmen on the team for me.

There was also a stretch in 2020-21 when Rielly was only comfortable dishing to his left on the power play, which meant down to the sidewall towards Marner. Even his cross body pass to the right point or opposite side of the ice was completely restricted. It’s worked itself out since then but there are stretches where things don’t look right.

 

[v00d00daddy]

It's been going on for a while. Many fringe fans didn't like Rielly on the PP. Why? Doesn't have good enough shot, hits shin pads, gives the puck away, etc. Then when Rielly missed weeks due to injury they started again: they should take him off the PP when he returns, trade him, etc. I am paraphrasing I know, but I think a few people know what I'm talking about. It's a loud minority posting a lot of this.

So here's a new thread on the topic and an opportunity to sound off.

I am a Rielly fan. I know he's not as good as some of the other D in the league, but I never post anything negative about him. He's not having as good as season as the past, but you could say that about Matthews too.

I don't know. I guess I just don't understand how this fringe movement got started. Are Leaf fans just comparing him to Giordano?

What gives?

What's there to hate about Morgan Rielly?

I think Rielly is amazing. But I’m also one of the people that expects a good shot from the one dman on a pp. Unfortunately he’s just not that player. That doesn’t mean I hate him. And I don’t think others that see it that way hate him either.

This victimhood is ridiculous. I’m sorry but it’s just useless. It seems like we (everyone including fans, players, coaches, officials and media) can’t take and deliver criticism without turning it into this drama. Calm down. Nobody is perfect, and we should be able to talk about it. Extremes like love and hate are not necessary when we’re talking about hockey.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

The hive mind strikes back.

 

[Stephen]

His Salary is still really good compared to other defenseman. Like he’s still an elite defenseman that can give you 60-70 points a year when healthy. That’s easily worth $7 million. Rielly isn’t an elite #1 but he’s a #1. Just not a two way #1 goalie.

Looking at what McAvoy, Hamilton, Werenski and Jones (and Nurse) were getting on their contracts a couple of years ago, there seemed to be a certain $9 million plus threshold for that classic number one defenseman/workhorse so Rielly's contract is still not bad at $7.5 million, flaws, limitations and critiques all baked in.

The only awkwardness with that contract is if they ever decided they needed a $9 million guy as their finishing piece, they have a $7.5 million guy in the way in the number 2 role.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

His Salary is still really good compared to other defenseman. Like he’s still an elite defenseman that can give you 60-70 points a year when healthy. That’s easily worth $7 million. Rielly isn’t an elite #1 but he’s a #1. Just not a two way #1 goalie.

It's obviously not a Nurse level overpay, but it's still a lot and it hinders the Leafs from adding a true elite #1 caliber guy. It also might age very well depending on how much the cap goes up

 

[francis246]

It's obviously not a Nurse level overpay, but it's still a lot and it hinders the Leafs from adding a true elite #1 caliber guy. It also might age very well depending on how much the cap goes up

I’ve always said, it is basically impossible to acquire a #1 defenseman through trade or UFA. It’s very rare that it happens. NYR got lucky with Fox wanting out of Calgary and VGK got lucky with signing Pietrangelo. Look at the rest of the league all those #1 d have been drafted and developed.

The only way is to draft and develop one. If the leafs want a #1 d, they have to find one through the draft.

 

[francis246]

Looking at what McAvoy, Hamilton, Werenski and Jones (and Nurse) were getting on their contracts a couple of years ago, there seemed to be a certain $9 million plus threshold for that classic number one defenseman/workhorse so Rielly's contract is still not bad at $7.5 million, flaws, limitations and critiques all baked in.

The only awkwardness with that contract is if they ever decided they needed a $9 million guy as their finishing piece, they have a $7.5 million guy in the way in the number 2 role.

Where are 9 million dollar defenseman available? #1 D men never hit the market and #1 d are never available through trade.

Erik Karlsson got traded but honestly at that time he wasn’t even a #1 anymore.

Pietrangelo hit UFA but he’s an anomaly in the cap era.

The reality is the Leafs if they ever get a true #1 it’ll be someone they draft or they’ll trade for a younger player by flipping a forward for a younger player on defense who is way cheaper than $7.5 million.

 

[Stephen]

Where are 9 million dollar defenseman available? #1 D men never hit the market and #1 d are never available through trade.

Erik Karlsson got traded but honestly at that time he wasn’t even a #1 anymore.

Pietrangelo hit UFA but he’s an anomaly in the cap era.

The reality is the Leafs if they ever get a true #1 it’ll be someone they draft or they’ll trade for a younger player by flipping a forward for a younger player on defense who is way cheaper than $7.5 million.

At the time I said I wouldn't have minded trading Rielly for futures go and pivoting to a UFA number one upgrade, but what we have now is fine at the current cap hit.

For now we're locked into him in that 1D role though.

 

[francis246]

At the time I said I wouldn't have minded trading Rielly for futures go and pivoting to a UFA number one upgrade, but what we have now is fine at the current cap hit.

For now we're locked into him in that 1D role though.

That is extremely risky. What if Dougie Hamilton or Pietrangelo says no? Then you’re left with no #1 d. And a bunch of guys playing out of roles. The absolute right thing was to sign Morgan Rielly just based on what we’ve seen in the NHL, which is, it’s extremely hard to acquire a #1 defenseman. So letting one walk for free or trading him for the potential of signing one who plays a different style is pretty dumb.

Additionally signing a UFA #1 d doesn’t always equate to success. New Jersey and Vegas haven’t really done much since those signings.

Like I’ve mentioned a few times. Leafs better start drafting more defenseman and hope they hit on one or maybe Liljegren or Sandin becomes that guy.

 

[Stephen]

That is extremely risky. What if Dougie Hamilton or Pietrangelo says no? Then you’re left with no #1 d. And a bunch of guys playing out of roles. The absolute right thing was to sign Morgan Rielly just based on what we’ve seen in the NHL, which is, it’s extremely hard to acquire a #1 defenseman. So letting one walk for free or trading him for the potential of signing one who plays a different style is pretty dumb.

Additionally signing a UFA #1 d doesn’t always equate to success. New Jersey and Vegas haven’t really done much since those signings.

Like I’ve mentioned a few times. Leafs better start drafting more defenseman and hope they hit on one or maybe Liljegren or Sandin becomes that guy.

I'm not going to spend too much time trying to tear down Rielly because he doesn't deserve that. But if you look at the Leafs talent up front, Rielly wouldn't be a Matthews/Marner level of defenseman, aka the elite of elite at his position. I think that's a fair assessment.

His contract is fine, but all I'm saying if they ever felt like they needed a number 1 ahead of Rielly, his contract would be a hurdle and you'd probably have to clear that $7.5 million to make the upgrade possible.

 

[BlueBaron]

I think fringe group is being very kind. No serious person is suggesting we move Rielly.

Our stretch of good defensive play has confused a lot of our fans. Many think we have an elite blueline. We don't. We have a decent one with room for improvement. There is a reason no one ever mentions his Cap hit. That's usually a sign their value isn't in question.

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

"Point of view I disagree with = fringe group"

Ain't that the truth these days.

 

[slozo]

It's been going on for a while. Many fringe fans didn't like Rielly on the PP. Why? Doesn't have good enough shot, hits shin pads, gives the puck away, etc. Then when Rielly missed weeks due to injury they started again: they should take him off the PP when he returns, trade him, etc. I am paraphrasing I know, but I think a few people know what I'm talking about. It's a loud minority posting a lot of this.

So here's a new thread on the topic and an opportunity to sound off.

I am a Rielly fan. I know he's not as good as some of the other D in the league, but I never post anything negative about him. He's not having as good as season as the past, but you could say that about Matthews too.

I don't know. I guess I just don't understand how this fringe movement got started. Are Leaf fans just comparing him to Giordano?

What gives?

What's there to hate about Morgan Rielly?

Like every opinion that might run totally counter to "ours" (I WAS in the same boat as you as a Reilly fan), our initial response is to diminish points made, ignore good points, and characterise them as a minority and introduce a strawman - all as you did here.

Not going to pile on you because again, I really like Reilly (thought he should've been mae captain way ahead of Tavares) and enjoy his game, knowing that he isn't ever going to be in that true top tier of defencemen, he's sort of the best of the next group I'll say. But yeah . . . time goes by. Things change. Players evolve, as does the game.

Giordano has indeed shown us something, and you make a good point against yourself when mentioning him as a compareable . . . yes, of course we compare the two, when Rielly is out and a very old Gio takes his place . . .and performs better and makes the team better than him. Of course! We should make those comparisons.

High end of Giordano was a Norris trophy winner and top d-man in the league . . . at his current age and speed, he shouldn't be better than a peak Rielly. But he is. This is in fact noteable.

We need to realise that Rielly is a very good pp defenceman, an overall very skilled d-man with very little physicality in his game (although not devoid of it obviously), and if AS A TEAM we want to get better . . . we need an upgrade onhim AS OUR TOP DMAN (with or without gettin grid of him, ya dig?)

 

[Martin Skoula]

Looking at what McAvoy, Hamilton, Werenski and Jones (and Nurse) were getting on their contracts a couple of years ago, there seemed to be a certain $9 million plus threshold for that classic number one defenseman/workhorse so Rielly's contract is still not bad at $7.5 million, flaws, limitations and critiques all baked in.

The only awkwardness with that contract is if they ever decided they needed a $9 million guy as their finishing piece, they have a $7.5 million guy in the way in the number 2 role.

The 1.5 mil in savings is nice and all but McAvoy + league minimum player vs Rielly + 2.5 mil player isn't a hard choice to make.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Like every opinion that might run totally counter to "ours" (I WAS in the same boat as you as a Reilly fan), our initial response is to diminish points made, ignore good points, and characterise them as a minority and introduce a strawman - all as you did here.

Not going to pile on you because again, I really like Reilly (thought he should've been mae captain way ahead of Tavares) and enjoy his game, knowing that he isn't ever going to be in that true top tier of defencemen, he's sort of the best of the next group I'll say. But yeah . . . time goes by. Things change. Players evolve, as does the game.

Giordano has indeed shown us something, and you make a good point against yourself when mentioning him as a compareable . . . yes, of course we compare the two, when Rielly is out and a very old Gio takes his place . . .and performs better and makes the team better than him. Of course! We should make those comparisons.

High end of Giordano was a Norris trophy winner and top d-man in the league . . . at his current age and speed, he shouldn't be better than a peak Rielly. But he is. This is in fact noteable.

We need to realise that Rielly is a very good pp defenceman, an overall very skilled d-man with very little physicality in his game (although not devoid of it obviously), and if AS A TEAM we want to get better . . . we need an upgrade onhim AS OUR TOP DMAN (with or without gettin grid of him, ya dig?)

Giordano is the exception in the league. How many Defensemen in the league play that well for so little? So yes you can compare them, but how long will this dream situation for Dubas continue? Gio might keep playing well from now and through the playoffs, but those of us that played sports at age 40+ know to show caution. Gio's success and ability might drop off tomorrow.

So in short: we need both and we need their contributions. We need both to play well. What we don't need is to "trade Rielly", "keep him far away from the PP", and "play Rielly on left wing".

 

[Stephen]

Giordano is the exception in the league. How many Defensemen in the league play that well for so little? So yes you can compare them, but how long will this dream situation for Dubas continue? Gio might keep playing well from now and through the playoffs, but those of us that played sports at age 40+ know to show caution. Gio's success and ability might drop off tomorrow.

So in short: we need both and we need their contributions. We need both to play well. What we don't need is to "trade Rielly", "keep him far away from the PP", and "play Rielly on left wing".

Chances are they'll keep Rielly and use him in a status quo role and that will be a conservative and appropriate solution.

But that's also not to say there isn't some Demar DeRozan trade scenario that would benefit Toronto at some point, or that taking Rielly off the PP isn't something even the team is thinking about. Why is Bunting out there on the 5 man unit if things are perfect?

Nothing is likely to happen but that doesn't mean there isn't some room for chit chat.