New GM Trades and Signings Part 2

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Aho - 10.38% as a C... 30 goals, 83 points. Involved in 34% of teams goals
Marner 13.38% as a winger 26 goals, 94 points. Involved in 32% of teams goals.
Matthews 14.64% as a C, 37 goals, 73 points Involved in 25.5% of teams goals.

Objectively... Aho was either substantially underpaid compared to Marner and Matthews, or Marner (in particular) and Matthews were overpaid.

Aho scored 10 more points than Matthews, and had seven less goals in his contract year... but that's a 30% discount, because he's THAT much worse?
I've already addressed pretty much all of this here:
Contracts aren't based on one year, and their raw points in that final year also don't very accurately reflect the difference in their offensive impacts in that year. Just quickly...

Through their ELCs:
Marner vs. Aho
0.93 vs. 0.81 points per game
0.90 vs. 0.76 points per game (no EN)
2.39 vs. 1.94 points per 60 at 5v5
7.19 vs. 5.37 points per 60 on the PP

Final season:
Marner vs. Aho
1.15 vs. 1.01 P/GP
1.06 vs. 0.93 P/GP (no EN)
2.87 vs. 1.99 P/60 at 5v5
5.94 vs. 5.85 P/60 on the PP

Marner also got 6 years, not 5, so it's not a straight 8.5m to 10.9 comparison, and Aho was not more defensively responsible or a better goal scorer.
Both PKed, but not very much at that point. Both were given offer sheets.

And I mean, all of this is pretty irrelevant anyway, because while we could discuss how much better and more valuable Marner was than Aho through their pre-signing period, the fact is that there is no way to argue that signing an offer sheet with another team is taking less to stay in Carolina.
The only things that weren't addressed were percentage of team goals (which is irrelevant and misleading) and Matthews (who, for some reason, you've decided to wildly misrepresent the quality of, and look at raw points in a sample that is not only partially post-signing, but a different number of games).
Objectively, the gap between Aho and Marner/Matthews through their pre-signing periods is consistent with the gap between their contracts.
But whether you agree or not, the fact is that signing an offer sheet with another team is not "taking less" to stay in Carolina.
 
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Would be really great to just get this Nylander situation sorted out one way or another. Whether that's signing him now or trading him now. Going into the season with Nylander unsigned is not an option for me, especially considering his agent.

Potentially losing Nylander for nothing at the end of next season would be disastrous. Figure it out now so the team can decide what needs to happen next.

Personally, I love Nylander but I would probably lean towards liquidating him into futures and then using some of those futures and the cap space to balance the team.
 
I've already addressed pretty much all of this here:

The only things that weren't addressed were percentage of team goals (which is irrelevant and misleading) and Matthews (who, for some reason, you've decided to wildly misrepresent the quality of, and look at raw points in a sample that is not only partially post-signing, but a different number of games).
Objectively, the gap between Aho and Marner/Matthews through their pre-signing periods is consistent with the gap between their contracts.
But whether you agree or not, the fact is that signing an offer sheet with another team is not "taking less" to stay in Carolina.
I see the numbers, but it still points to Marner in particular having been overpaid. I don't even think that's arguable. Matthews, less so IMO.. but it brings it back to... why should Nylander take less, if nobody else is here? And if the Canes don't have anyone taking obscene amounts there like Marner did... would he take less than $10mil? Who knows, but I don't think he's out to max like he would be here..

Matthews needs to show some leadership and sign though, hopefully for $12 mil or less.
 
I've already addressed pretty much all of this here:

The only things that weren't addressed were percentage of team goals (which is irrelevant and misleading) and Matthews (who, for some reason, you've decided to wildly misrepresent the quality of, and look at raw points in a sample that is not only partially post-signing, but a different number of games).
Objectively, the gap between Aho and Marner/Matthews through their pre-signing periods is consistent with the gap between their contracts.
But whether you agree or not, the fact is that signing an offer sheet with another team is not "taking less" to stay in Carolina.
How do you figure the fact Aho scores a decent amount more goals while also playing an important role as a #1C contributes to the situation? I seem to recall you using that exact argument to say why Matthews deserved more than other comparables
 
I see the numbers, but it still points to Marner in particular having been overpaid. I don't even think that's arguable. Matthews, less so IMO.. but it brings it back to... why should Nylander take less, if nobody else is here? And if the Canes don't have anyone taking obscene amounts there like Marner did... would he take less than $10mil? Who knows, but I don't think he's out to max like he would be here..
The numbers don't point to either Marner or Matthews being overpaid at all. Some people just can't accept that the wider sample and context means way more within contract negotiations than the peak raw point total somebody hits in their final year (or after signing). We've had a number of players take less than they could get elsewhere, to play here over the years. More than Carolina.

I don't see any reason to think that Nylander would demand max money in Toronto, where he's spent his whole career, has roots, friends, a great situation, etc., and then turn around and give some random team he has zero connections to a discount, just because they have worse top-end players.
How do you figure the fact Aho scores a decent amount more goals while also playing an important role as a #1C contributes to the situation? I seem to recall you using that exact argument to say why Matthews deserved more than other comparables
You're recalling incorrectly. My argument regarding Matthews hasn't been about goals or being a center. In fact, the importance and value of those aspects tends to get wildly exaggerated - likely because people see trends and misunderstand the cause of the trends. Centers tend to be better players that drive their lines, and on average, they tend to be more defensively responsible. They also have the potential to add small amounts of value in something like faceoffs, but Aho sucked at faceoffs. Goalscorers tend to be good primary point producers, which is much more relevant than goals alone. Aho wasn't even that different of a goal-scorer anyway through their ELCs, for the record. He did have the 2nd most empty net goals in the league though.
 
The numbers don't point to either Marner or Matthews being overpaid at all. Some people just can't accept that the wider sample and context means way more within contract negotiations than the peak raw point total somebody hits in their final year (or after signing). We've had a number of players take less than they could get elsewhere, to play here over the years. More than Carolina.

I don't see any reason to think that Nylander would demand max money in Toronto, where he's spent his whole career, has roots, friends, a great situation, etc., and then turn around and give some random team he has zero connections to a discount, just because they have worse top-end players.

You're recalling incorrectly. My argument regarding Matthews hasn't been about goals or being a center. In fact, the importance and value of those aspects tends to get wildly exaggerated - likely because people see trends and misunderstand the cause of the trends. Centers tend to be better players that drive their lines, and on average, they tend to be more defensively responsible. They also have the potential to add small amounts of value in something like faceoffs, but Aho sucked at faceoffs. Goalscorers tend to be good primary point producers, which is much more relevant than goals alone. Aho wasn't even that different of a goal-scorer anyway through their ELCs, for the record. He did have the 2nd most empty net goals in the league though.

Marner was overpaid. If you don’t agree, please show his comparables, justifying his pay, RFA’s, coming off their ELC, with similar term.


Given this is off topic, please feel free to respond in a more appropriate thread and tag me.
 
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If the core wants to ignore comparables around the league and focus on the team hierarchy, the following would represent a valid distribution of wealth based on their overall contributions and value to the team in my opinion:

Matthews - 12-12.5 million AAV on a medium term deal
Marner - 10-10.5 million on a long term deal
Nylander - 9-9.5 million on a long term deal
 
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If the core wants to ignore comparables around the league and focus on the team hierarchy, the following would represent a valid distribution of wealth based on their overall contributions and value to the team in my opinion:

Matthews - 12-12.5 million AAV on a medium term deal
Marner - 10-10.5 million on a long term deal
Nylander - 9-9.5 million on a long term deal
The funny thing is if the Nylander negotiation plays out the way it should, thats probably what he will get yet will somehow be the one that gets criticized the most and the one we have to trade.
 
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Sorry if it's already been discussed but the old man just sent me a random tik tok trade rumour of Nylander for Backlund and Hanafin.........both on expiring contracts too. Hanafin I know but not familiar with backlunds game these days. Any good?

edit: im more wondering about the return here I know Tic Tok isnt a good place for actual news lol
 
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Sorry if it's already been discussed but the old man just sent me a random tik tok trade rumour of Nylander for Backlund and Hanafin.........both on expiring contracts too. Hanafin I know but not familiar with backlunds game these days. Any good?
I think it's pretty safe to say that you shouldn't be getting your hockey news from Tik Tok if you're hoping for accuracy.
 
Sorry if it's already been discussed but the old man just sent me a random tik tok trade rumour of Nylander for Backlund and Hanafin.........both on expiring contracts too. Hanafin I know but not familiar with backlunds game these days. Any good?
it's a common rumour that's flying around. Hannifin would be the primary piece I'd imagine.

Dont think there is merit to it but who knows.
 
How do you figure the fact Aho scores a decent amount more goals while also playing an important role as a #1C contributes to the situation? I seem to recall you using that exact argument to say why Matthews deserved more than other comparables

Aho - 10.38% as a C... 30 goals, 83 points. Involved in 34% of teams goals
Marner 13.38% as a winger 26 goals, 94 points. Involved in 32% of teams goals.
Matthews 14.64% as a C, 37 goals, 73 points Involved in 25.5% of teams goals.

Objectively... Aho was either substantially underpaid compared to Marner and Matthews, or Marner (in particular) and Matthews were overpaid.

Aho scored 10 more points than Matthews, and had seven less goals in his contract year... but that's a 30% discount, because he's THAT much worse?

I'm sorry.. I can't agree here.



Tell me about watching Liljegren with the Marlies, and their PP? Tell me about how you've watched Liljegren how he progresses, and what you understand about that.

Aho team also scored 40 goals less than Toronto that year but also allowed 28 goals against less too. So Aho played on a team that is highly defensive, which contributed to him producing less points too.

So if Carolina scores 40 more goals, Aho would've produced about 12 more points (at 30% involvement in team goals). Taking his total to 95?

Anyways back to this thread, but id recommend bringing this discussion to the Marner thread.
 
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The funny thing is if the Nylander negotiation plays out the way it should, thats probably what he will get yet will somehow be the one that gets criticized the most and the one we have to trade.
In retrospect, he's the player that deserves the least criticism among the 3 of them relative to their existing contracts.

The problem now is that Dubas has left us in a position whereby unlike all other contending teams, we are just hoping and praying that our own homegrown players don't bend us over again in contract negotiations as opposed to expecting a hometown discount.
 
Yeah, because our brain dead mgmt team let it get to this point. I am 50/50 on whether AM will pull a Gaudreau and 100% WN will walk if he isnt traded. They all should have been shipped out after Shanny & Co....this is going to get very interesting....
Can't trade Tavares, can't get good value for Matthews and Nylander unless they agree to a sign-and-trade, and before his NMC kicked in probably couldn't get decent value for Marner.
IMatthews needs to show some leadership and sign though, hopefully for $12 mil or less.
He's not doing that. I don't think any player in his position would.
 
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Great let’s run back the same vanilla defence again. Enjoy it.
I'm not sure if you want 6 Luke Schenn's out there or what. McCabe is a physical player. He, along with Timmins, was acquired in the last 6 months. How is this at all "running it back"? This is a steady improvement.

Plus, Treliving has added Klingberg and made it known he wants to add a tough Dman.

That will be 4 of the 7 Dmen acquired in the past 6 months. If 22 year old Liljegren and the guy who has been our steadiest defenseman over the past 3 years are too "vanilla" for you, then I'm not sure you understand how an NHL defense is built or how difficult it is to acquire physical D who can play consistent minutes at the NHL level.
 
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The funny thing is if the Nylander negotiation plays out the way it should, thats probably what he will get yet will somehow be the one that gets criticized the most and the one we have to trade.
It's always been like this... he always gets the flack regardless of other circumstances.

He's genuinely the Kessel of this team, people expect things from him that are not him or out of his control.

I know ill miss him when he's traded.
 
I'm not sure if you want 6 Luke Schenn's out there or what. McCabe is a physical player. He, along with Timmins, was acquired in the last 6 months. How is this at all "running it back"? This is a steady improvement.

Plus, Treliving has added Klingberg and made it known he wants to add a tough Dman.

That will be 4 of the 7 Dmen acquired in the past 6 months. If 22 year old Liljegren and the guy who has been our steadiest defenseman over the past 3 years are too "vanilla" for you, then I'm not sure you understand how an NHL defense is built or how difficult it is to acquire physical D who can play consistent minutes at the NHL level.
The whole team has been sooo vanilla and it was getting harder to get excited about a same lineup season , however the new guys coming in will hopefully add that flavor that is sorely needed but Im still a little concerned that we are still rearranging the chairs on the titanic with the core guys still here. If they dont buy in to the team first approach and all for one mentality then I dont see a much different scenario playing out. I do like what Treliving has done so far though and going by his comments on what he wants his teams to play like Im expecting more changes that will take us away from Kyles vision of non physical, passive play which for me will be most welcome.
 
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The whole team has been sooo vanilla and it was getting harder to get excited about a same lineup season , however the new guys coming in will hopefully add that flavor that is sorely needed but Im still a little concerned that we are still rearranging the chairs on the titanic with the core guys still here. If they dont buy in to the team first approach and all for one mentality then I dont see a much different scenario playing out. I do like what Treliving has done so far though and going by his comments on what he wants his teams to play like Im expecting more changes that will take us away from Kyles vision of non physical, passive play which for me will be most welcome.
I agree that the team is feistier right now with Bertuzzi, Domi and Reaves than last year's team.

However, I don't understand the narrative the the best players on the team aren't "team guys". I'm guessing it comes from how much money they received on their contracts. I don't really buy into that though. The Cap would be significantly higher right now if not for Covid and the two shortened seasons. Marner and Matthews contracts would look like the Nylander contract right now where it's a bargain. I don't like the Tavares contract, but nothing we can do about it now.

Treliving has done well so far in terms of changing the team dynamic. He's definitely not done yet, but with the additions of the 3 mentioned earlier and an elite offensive defenseman, this team will definitely play a bit differently. Harder to play against, tougher and better puck movement up the ice from the D.
 
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I agree that the team is feistier right now with Bertuzzi, Domi and Reaves than last year's team.

However, I don't understand the narrative the the best players on the team aren't "team guys". I'm guessing it comes from how much money they received on their contracts. I don't really buy into that though. The Cap would be significantly higher right now if not for Covid and the two shortened seasons. Marner and Matthews contracts would look like the Nylander contract right now where it's a bargain. I don't like the Tavares contract, but nothing we can do about it now.

Treliving has done well so far in terms of changing the team dynamic. He's definitely not done yet, but with the additions of the 3 mentioned earlier and an elite offensive defenseman, this team will definitely play a bit differently. Harder to play against, tougher and better puck movement up the ice from the D.

We need to stop paying guys by projecting the cap.

MacKinnon's contract kicks in this year, and will be in year 2 of Matthew's deal and he didn't need 14M AAV x 8 years to re-sign even with the cap projected to eventually go up.
 
We need to stop paying guys by projecting the cap.

MacKinnon's contract kicks in this year, and will be in year 2 of Matthew's deal and he didn't need 14M AAV x 8 years to re-sign even with the cap projected to eventually go up.
Mackinnon is going to be the highest paid player in the league this year. All of the talk of Matthews contract has been under $13m. Where does $14m come from?

Also, the projection of cap is how every contract is negotiated. It's the only tangible way to determine worth in a cap environment.
 
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