New GM Trades and Signings Part 2

[myleafs]

I agree that the team is feistier right now with Bertuzzi, Domi and Reaves than last year's team.

However, I don't understand the narrative the the best players on the team aren't "team guys". I'm guessing it comes from how much money they received on their contracts. I don't really buy into that though. The Cap would be significantly higher right now if not for Covid and the two shortened seasons. Marner and Matthews contracts would look like the Nylander contract right now where it's a bargain. I don't like the Tavares contract, but nothing we can do about it now.

Treliving has done well so far in terms of changing the team dynamic. He's definitely not done yet, but with the additions of the 3 mentioned earlier and an elite offensive defenseman, this team will definitely play a bit differently. Harder to play against, tougher and better puck movement up the ice from the D.

Watching 34 pick up sticks while Reilly was sticking up for him or going limp when confronted is the kind of stuff that makes me think we are never winning anything. None of our top guys ever stand up for their team or themselves for that matter. Rielly does, Gio will, Spezza did but our top paid players just dont, like ever. Top players on the teams that win do. We have brought in a few guys who will which is great but the top guys still gotta show some sort of jam for us to make some noise when it counts.

 

[smitty10]

Watching 34 pick up sticks while Reilly was sticking up for him or going limp when confronted is the kind of stuff that makes me think we are never winning anything. None of our top guys ever stand up for their team or themselves for that matter. Rielly does, Gio will, Spezza did but our top paid players just dont, like ever. Top players on the teams that win do. We have brought in a few guys who will which is great but the top guys still gotta show some sort of jam for us to make some noise when it counts.

Stamkos literally said he fought Matthews because he wanted to take him off the ice. Our top guys are more valuable on the ice than getting their feathers ruffled and fighting because they allow their emotions get the best of them. If our top guys engage someone with some roughing, the other player will always drop the gloves and throw at them because we lose that exchange every time.

Emotion can be a good thing. We want these guys to want to win. I don't think proving they care by fighting someone is the right way to do it in the vast majority of situations. That's a role player's job. The build of the team should be solid enough that the core players never have to fight. That's a true indication of team toughness. Protecting your stars so they don't have to fight.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Mackinnon is going to be the highest paid player in the league this year. All of the talk of Matthews contract has been under $13m. Where does $14m come from?

Also, the projection of cap is how every contract is negotiated. It's the only tangible way to determine worth in a cap environment.

Most people say if we're signing Matthews for 8 years it needs to be in the 14-15M range for *reasons* lol

If Matthews needs 13M to sign for 8 years...1 year after MacKinnon signed for 12.6M, okay, it's a jump but okay.

Needing 12.8-13M range for 3-4 years...seems odd.

Stamkos literally said he fought Matthews because he wanted to take him off the ice. Our top guys are more valuable on the ice than getting their feathers ruffled and fighting because they allow their emotions get the best of them. If our top guys engage someone with some roughing, the other player will always drop the gloves and throw at them because we lose that exchange every time.

Emotion can be a good thing. We want these guys to want to win. I don't think proving they care by fighting someone is the right way to do it in the vast majority of situations. That's a role player's job. The build of the team should be solid enough that the core players never have to fight. That's a true indication of team toughness. Protecting your stars so they don't have to fight.

Not true.



That's a leader you follow into battle.

 

[smitty10]

Most people say if we're signing Matthews for 8 years it needs to be in the 14-15M range for *reasons* lol

If Matthews needs 13M to sign for 8 years...1 year after MacKinnon signed for 12.6M, okay, it's a jump but okay.

Needing 12.8-13M range for 3-4 years...seems odd.



Not true.



That's a leader you follow into battle.

People can say what they want. Remember when Mackinnon wanted $15m to sign? Didn't happen.

That video proves my point. Toews engaged with Backes because of the hit. Backes sees he can take off an elite player and immediately drops the gloves. Backes goes off the ice as a 2nd line forward and takes off the 2nd best center in the league at the time. Great!

 

[WTFMAN99]

People can say what they want. Remember when Mackinnon wanted $15m to sign? Didn't happen.

That video proves my point. Toews engaged with Backes because of the hit. Backes sees he can take off an elite player and immediately drops the gloves. Backes goes off the ice as a 2nd line forward and takes off the 2nd best center in the league at the time. Great!

Let's see what he signs for I guess, only way anything can really change.

I have no problem with Toews engaging Backes in that fight, for as often as Toews did it, it rallied the team. The guy knew what he was doing, 3 cups lol.

 

[Kiwi]

Stamkos literally said he fought Matthews because he wanted to take him off the ice. Our top guys are more valuable on the ice than getting their feathers ruffled and fighting because they allow their emotions get the best of them. If our top guys engage someone with some roughing, the other player will always drop the gloves and throw at them because we lose that exchange every time.

Emotion can be a good thing. We want these guys to want to win. I don't think proving they care by fighting someone is the right way to do it in the vast majority of situations. That's a role player's job. The build of the team should be solid enough that the core players never have to fight. That's a true indication of team toughness. Protecting your stars so they don't have to fight.

Then be prepared to be bullied every playoffs and have teams like Florida goon it up and physically force us out of series

Who wants to stand beside somebody that pathetic they won't even stand up and protect themselves or the guy beside them?

You may not be able to fight but at least try

No wonder we crumble when we hit some adversity, who can believe in teammates like that?

 

[myleafs]

Stamkos literally said he fought Matthews because he wanted to take him off the ice. Our top guys are more valuable on the ice than getting their feathers ruffled and fighting because they allow their emotions get the best of them. If our top guys engage someone with some roughing, the other player will always drop the gloves and throw at them because we lose that exchange every time.

Emotion can be a good thing. We want these guys to want to win. I don't think proving they care by fighting someone is the right way to do it in the vast majority of situations. That's a role player's job. The build of the team should be solid enough that the core players never have to fight. That's a true indication of team toughness. Protecting your stars so they don't have to fight.

Sticking up for each other and themselves doesnt mean fighting and I wish people would stop with that every time someone mentions toughness. Grinning like an idiot, going limp and being ragdolled at the nhl level is embarrassing. Matthews doesnt need to fight...he is a big boy who just needed to grab on to Stammer and start yanking. Same with Sedin against Marchand back in the day and reminded me of it...he was so much bigger than Marchand yet let himself get punched in the face several times with zero response. Terrible look and one of the reasons they lost. Marner needs to find a little kucherov nasty and slash Tckachuk's ankles when he punches him in the face. Bullies are gonna bully until you give them a reason not to. Even Kessel would stick up for himself.

Stamkos, Ovie, Crosby, Malkin, Stone, Tkachuk, Messier etc etc would never ever in a zillion yrs do what our top guys do when challenged so to say its the role players job is one of the reasons I dont think we do well in the playoffs. Its a war, not tiddlywinks and they are our leaders who the rest of the team follows. Am I gonna go through the wall for a player who wont do the same for me? Seems so obvious when watching every other team in the playoffs every year.

 

[smitty10]

Then be prepared to be bullied every playoffs and have teams like Florida goon it up and physically force us out of series

Who wants to stand beside somebody that pathetic they won't even stand up and protect themselves or the guy beside them?

You may not be able to fight but at least try

No wonder we crumble when we hit some adversity, who can believe in teammates like that?

I guess we will just differ here. Someone fighting doesn't prove to me that they're more of a leader or anything. I'd much rather have our top players playing their game to the best of their ability than sitting in the playoffs when the team is losing and struggling to score. I've played relatively high level hockey. Our best player fighting never did it for me, but watching one of our tough guys beat the shit out of the guy who laid the dirty hit would get the boys fired up.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I guess we will just differ here. Someone fighting doesn't prove to me that they're more of a leader or anything. I'd much rather have our top players playing their game to the best of their ability than sitting in the playoffs when the team is losing and struggling to score. I've played relatively high level hockey. Our best player fighting never did it for me, but watching one of our tough guys beat the shit out of the guy who laid the dirty hit would get the boys fired up.

Seeing Phil Kessel fight Kris Russel would definitely get my attention.

Or if I were to be a player on those Calgary teams, especially when they went on a run, seeing Iginla crush guys and then drop the gloves on occasion, how the hell can I not follow that guy into battle? He's our best player and he's willing to get his nose dirty.

It's a pack mentality.

 

[smitty10]

Sticking up for each other and themselves doesnt mean fighting and I wish people would stop with that every time someone mentions toughness. Grinning like an idiot, going limp and being ragdolled at the nhl level is embarrassing. Matthews doesnt need to fight...he is a big boy who just needed to grab on to Stammer and start yanking. Same with Sedin against Marchand back in the day and reminded me of it...he was so much bigger than Marchand yet let himself get punched in the face several times with zero response. Terrible look and one of the reasons they lost. Marner needs to find a little kucherov nasty and slash Tckachuk's ankles when he punches him in the face. Bullies are gonna bully until you give them a reason not to. Even Kessel would stick up for himself.

Stamkos, Ovie, Crosby, Malkin, Stone, Tkachuk, Messier etc etc would never ever in a zillion yrs do what our top guys do when challenged so to say its the role players job is one of the reasons I dont think we do well in the playoffs. Its a war, not tiddlywinks and they are our leaders who the rest of the team follows. Am I gonna go through the wall for a player who wont do the same for me? Seems so obvious when watching every other team in the playoffs every year.

So guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Kopitar, Bergeron, Kane, etc who don't fight but saw success were worthless players?

I just don't get that mentality. Matthews throws hits, he goes to the dirty areas, he scores goals. However, not roughing it up in a scrum is cause for concern? Doesnt make sense to me. I think people put way too much stock into fighting and leadership without fully understanding how these things work in reality.

Seeing Phil Kessel fight Kris Russel would definitely get my attention.

Or if I were to be a player on those Calgary teams, especially when they went on a run, seeing Iginla crush guys and then drop the gloves on occasion, how the hell can I not follow that guy into battle? He's our best player and he's willing to get his nose dirty.

It's a pack mentality.

I'm all for the team getting tougher. I'm just not as concerned as many here about our stars fighting.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

Seeing Phil Kessel fight Kris Russel would definitely get my attention.

Or if I were to be a player on those Calgary teams, especially when they went on a run, seeing Iginla crush guys and then drop the gloves on occasion, how the hell can I not follow that guy into battle? He's our best player and he's willing to get his nose dirty.

It's a pack mentality.

Not every star players have the same type of way of leading or playing the game though. Look at Kopitar, lemeuix, Bergeron , and kane? Toews was my favorite player and I love that but it's more important to have your purpose set and excel at that if it's not your thing. Those guys lead but they had others too that knew hey I need to step up and I'll fight for them and that would amp them up.

I agree pack mentality is required but you can find ways to rally the troops with the right surrounding casts. I

So guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Kopitar, Bergeron, Kane, etc who don't fight but saw success were worthless players?

I just don't get that mentality. Matthews throws hits, he goes to the dirty areas, he scores goals. However, not roughing it up in a scrum is cause for concern? Doesnt make sense to me. I think people put way too much stock into fighting and leadership without fully understanding how these things work in reality.


I'm all for the team getting tougher. I'm just not as concerned as many here about our stars fighting.

You robbed my words...

 

[thusk]

Are you hung up on him driving the powerplay? He doesnt have to if he has a forward to do that.. run it off the half wall

Lilly can pass and he has a shot... the power play doesn't have to run through him for him to be successful on it or to use his tools

Pp its about 5 player, not about 4 but all the 5 player on the ice... if the only

Liljegren dont have a heavy shot ... half of his goal was in the slot on a rebound... so dont have an heavy shot, unable to create offensive play, passing/shooting lane... Can you tell me whats liljegren can bring to a powerplay than a d who can skate well, pass the puck but dont see play in front of him to really use it and an average shot? Please tell me, i really try to find where he can help a team on a pp

 

[andora]

Pp its about 5 player, not about 4 but all the 5 player on the ice... if the only

Liljegren dont have a heavy shot ... half of his goal was in the slot on a rebound... so dont have an heavy shot, unable to create offensive play, passing/shooting lane... Can you tell me whats liljegren can bring to a powerplay than a d who can skate well, pass the puck but dont see play in front of him to really use it and an average shot? Please tell me, i really try to find where he can help a team on a pp

i am surprised liljegren is even in the NHL. with how you speak of him.

i came into this basically only to comment on when you were using 30 minute sample sizes so definitively. Liljegren has offensive potential whether you want to acknowledge it or not and Liljegren has a good shot whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

 

[keonsbitterness]

Crosby did it. McDavid did it. MacKinnon just did it.

Crosby signed a thousand years ago under a previous CBA. While McDavid didn't go 18%, he still signed 16.7%, and the highest AAV at the time. MacKinnon took less but still used McDavid for his deal.

Using this year's cap at McDavid cap% yields an AAV of $13,944,000. The Matthews camp is going further by reportedly trying to use future cap increases as the basis of a deal. That sucks if true because the Leafs don't have a lot of leverage.

 

[Notsince67]

Marner was overpaid. If you don’t agree, please show his comparables, justifying his pay, RFA’s, coming off their ELC, with similar term.


Given this is off topic, please feel free to respond in a more appropriate thread and tag me.

Are you new?
There are archives going back 4 years. Read up a relitigate on the points. This shit is so tiresome.

 

[justashadowof]

Sticking up for each other and themselves doesnt mean fighting and I wish people would stop with that every time someone mentions toughness. Grinning like an idiot, going limp and being ragdolled at the nhl level is embarrassing. Matthews doesnt need to fight...he is a big boy who just needed to grab on to Stammer and start yanking. Same with Sedin against Marchand back in the day and reminded me of it...he was so much bigger than Marchand yet let himself get punched in the face several times with zero response. Terrible look and one of the reasons they lost. Marner needs to find a little kucherov nasty and slash Tckachuk's ankles when he punches him in the face. Bullies are gonna bully until you give them a reason not to. Even Kessel would stick up for himself.

Stamkos, Ovie, Crosby, Malkin, Stone, Tkachuk, Messier etc etc would never ever in a zillion yrs do what our top guys do when challenged so to say its the role players job is one of the reasons I dont think we do well in the playoffs. Its a war, not tiddlywinks and they are our leaders who the rest of the team follows. Am I gonna go through the wall for a player who wont do the same for me? Seems so obvious when watching every other team in the playoffs every year.

The problem in the end was that Matthews tried to fight Stamkos and didn't know how to. Embarassing or not, it was dangerous the way he fell. He had ten of millions of future earnings on the line as that leg buckled under his own weight as he fell. Fortunately nothing happened but there should be no next time. That's our franchise center getting into something he has obviously never trained to do. Next time his teammates swarm and/or Matthews has learned how to hold on and keep his opponent from getting a free arm.

 

[myleafs]

So guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Kopitar, Bergeron, Kane, etc who don't fight but saw success were worthless players?

I just don't get that mentality. Matthews throws hits, he goes to the dirty areas, he scores goals. However, not roughing it up in a scrum is cause for concern? Doesnt make sense to me. I think people put way too much stock into fighting and leadership without fully understanding how these things work in reality.


I'm all for the team getting tougher. I'm just not as concerned as many here about our stars fighting.

I never saw those players grin and go limp, and not push back when confronted. Did you miss the part where I specifically stated I dont think toughness means fighting? Yea players who dont fight like Gretzky (though he did have a fight) are worthless? Like where did I imply anything of the sort?

 

[Dreakmur]

Crosby signed a thousand years ago under a previous CBA. While McDavid didn't go 18%, he still signed 16.7%, and the highest AAV at the time. MacKinnon took less but still used McDavid for his deal.

Using this year's cap at McDavid cap% yields an AAV of $13,944,000. The Matthews camp is going further by reportedly trying to use future cap increases as the basis of a deal. That sucks if true because the Leafs don't have a lot of leverage.

At the time of his contract, Crosby was the undisputed best player in the world, and he took way less than he could have commanded.

At the time of his contract, McDavid was the undisputed best player in the world, and he also took way less than he could have commanded.

Those guys aren’t even comparables, so we may as well forget them anyway.

MacKinnon is a fair comparable for Matthews. Neither is the best player, but they are surely top-10 and arguably top-5. Taking the same cap percentage would be 12.75 million on an 8 year term. That’s a fair contract for Matthews.

 

[Menzinger]

Taxes make it cheaper

True, though there will likely be other tax friendly states interested in him as a ufa too

 

[smitty10]

I never saw those players grin and go limp, and not push back when confronted. Did you miss the part where I specifically stated I dont think toughness means fighting? Yea players who dont fight like Gretzky (though he did have a fight) are worthless? Like where did I imply anything of the sort?

It was implied when you disregarded the fact that Matthews hits, goes into the dirty areas and does everything expected of a larger power forward, yet all you can focus on is the fact that he grins at a player who is all wound up trying to goad him into a penalty or a fight. He does all the right things while the game is actually being played yet all that's being focused on is the nonsense after the whistle where players try and get other guys to take dumb penalties.

 

[fahad203]

Not every star players have the same type of way of leading or playing the game though. Look at Kopitar, lemeuix, Bergeron , and kane? Toews was my favorite player and I love that but it's more important to have your purpose set and excel at that if it's not your thing. Those guys lead but they had others too that knew hey I need to step up and I'll fight for them and that would amp them up.

I agree pack mentality is required but you can find ways to rally the troops with the right surrounding casts. I


You robbed my words...

 

[thusk]

i am surprised liljegren is even in the NHL. with how you speak of him.

i came into this basically only to comment on when you were using 30 minute sample sizes so definitively. Liljegren has offensive potential whether you want to acknowledge it or not and Liljegren has a good shot whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

I said it since the beggining... Liljegren is a 5/6/7 th 5v5 transitionnal dmen

Hes excellent on transition, 2nd best behind rielly amount all D playing last season. The rest of his game is above average...
Defensive : was 6th or 7th
Offensive 5th
Physical game 5th or 6th

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Seeing Phil Kessel fight Kris Russel would definitely get my attention.

Or if I were to be a player on those Calgary teams, especially when they went on a run, seeing Iginla crush guys and then drop the gloves on occasion, how the hell can I not follow that guy into battle? He's our best player and he's willing to get his nose dirty.

It's a pack mentality.

How sad is it that we are lamenting how tough Phil "Freaking" Kessel was compared to this group of guys?

So guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Kopitar, Bergeron, Kane, etc who don't fight but saw success were worthless players?

I just don't get that mentality. Matthews throws hits, he goes to the dirty areas, he scores goals. However, not roughing it up in a scrum is cause for concern? Doesnt make sense to me. I think people put way too much stock into fighting and leadership without fully understanding how these things work in reality.


I'm all for the team getting tougher. I'm just not as concerned as many here about our stars fighting.

The reason all of those other superstars never really fought is because they had tough line-mates that would jump in if anyone even breathed on them. We did not have that until this off season. Dubas kept getting 4th liners that never play to "defend" the rest of the team instead of doing what Tree is doing by potentially having a rougher guy on each of their lines. Big difference.

 

[WTFMAN99]

How sad is it that we are lamenting how tough Phil "Freaking" Kessel was compared to this group of guys?

Kessel just was never meant to be leaned upon as the best player on the team, he fit into Pittsburgh perfectly with other high end guys to take the spotlight, he was just allowed to play hockey.

In terms of toughess...man, he even took some golf swings with his stick against Scott rather than just let himself stand there and be attacked.