Speculation: New GM Candidates?

[Whammer]

Is Benning old? Say...over 60? I'd like to think Buffalo should be looking for a 40-45ish year old guy that can stick around for a while.

He's 50. 4/29/63

 

[joshjull]

Old boys club

Huh?

 

[Paxon]

Is Benning old? Say...over 60? I'd like to think Buffalo should be looking for a 40-45ish year old guy that can stick around for a while.

He's 50

 

[Paxon]

Huh?

They haven't worked together in almost 2 decades, when Benning was a scout under Muckler for 3 seasons.

 

[joshjull]

They haven't worked together in almost 2 decades, when Benning was a scout under Muckler for 3 seasons.

I'm aware of that. Im confused as to what that has to do with the old boys network.

 

[Djp]

I'm not a huge fan of Benning, either, but I think you're being a bit over the top in your criticism. His biggest fault was not that he selected--and let's be clear, he was simply a part of the selection process, and not one with final authority, either--guys like Jason Pominville (55th), Derek Roy (32nd), Paul Gaustad (220th), or Ryan Miller (138th). Those guys were great picks for where they were selected in a given draft. The odds are stacked against players selected in those draft slots to have long NHL careers as each has had.

My issue with him is that he and the rest of Sabres management failed to put proper "core players" around those guys with his other draft picks. Most notably, the Sabres picked Heisten, Kryukov, and Novotny in three consecutive 1st rounds from 1999-2001? Big problem. You can't piss away three consecutive 1st round picks like that without consequence. With the exception of the 2001 class, he largely got nothing out of his 2nd round picks, either: Andrew Peters, Norm Milley, Jaro Kristek, Milan Bartovic, Mike Zigomanis, Doug Janik, Gerald Dicaire, Branislav Fabry, Mike Funk, etc. Those are all whammies at spots where you'd like to be drafting depth.

There's an argument against Benning, but it ain't that he "drafted the old core." Those were good picks where he got those guys. The organization screwed up by missing on so many 1st rounders during his tenure, and, subsequently, watching the GM make "the old core" into the core, when they mostly should have been complementary players.
__________________________________________

Whoever gets chosen is going to get nitpicked by those who cannot be happy about anything and/or those who wanted one of the other candidates. Paul Fenton? "The Preds haven't picked an elite forward in his tenure, I hope you all enjoy a forward corps of 2nd and 3rd liners just like we had with Darcy!" or "He only knows how to be a small-market GM, and we've seen what happens when they have to become a GM of a cap team." Jason Botterill? Pittsburgh's drafts have sucked since he's been there, starting with the 2008 draft. And on and on.

Perfect doesn't have to be the enemy of good. I'm sure they'll make a good selection.

I have my hesitation on Fenton and Benning for these same reasons you stated...

Fenton---what has Nashville done in drafting forwards?

Benning---the team between 1999-2001 didnt produce well in the draft.

1999 draft...

half the 1st round picks were busts. Only about 10 or so out of the 2nd & 3rd rounds had any long term NHL success--thus rating them as a successful pick.

2000 draft....

It was a little better where about 1/3 of the 1st were busts and about 14 out of 60 2nd/3rd rpund picks were succesful.

2001.....

1/3 of the 1st round were busts. About 13 2nd/3rd round picks were successful. Buffalo did better here in drafting Roy, Thornburn, and Pominville. Novotny get traded away to Washington for Zubrus at the 2007 deadline. I lessen the bust factor on Novotny because he was traded away and someteams teams need to do these kind of moves for cup runs.

I just have a bad feeling with Benning. with the comment below by Muckler give me a bad feeling of old boys network stuff.

Just found this and thought I would share, it adds some names but I definitley like who is listed as #1

How many scouts were with the team--and who still are with them now-- when Benning was with buffalo?

Craig Custance of ESPN: Ranking Sabres GM candidates: 1. Claude Loiselle 2. Jason Botterill 3. Laurence Gilman 4. Brad Treliving 5. Paul Fenton Wild Card: Bill Zito.

Not as credible though considering it was posted over a week ago

Botterill, Treliving, and Fenton will get interviewed for this job. Unsure with Loiselle.

@JoshRimerHockey: Former Buffalo Sabres GM John Muckler says Lafontaine should hire Jim Benning as new GM. "He's the guy they should hire." #Bruins (1/2)

@JoshRimerHockey: More Muckler (2/2) "Jim Benning deserves it after how hard he's worked. He's a good man and has an eye for talent."

 

[joshjull]

The old boy network stuff with Benning is just silly. Every GM candidate will have his advocates in the hockey community and we've heard from many advocating for some of the candidates.


Considering the lions share of Benning's time here was under Regier. Its a tad daft to argue the old boy network is in play because Muckler praised Benning. Add in the fact that Nolan hated Muckler and Patty L. was/is a Nolan guy. It makes the comment even more absurd.


Benning, like the other candidates, worked his way up through the ranks and is now a prime candidate to get a GM job.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

The old boy network stuff with Benning is just silly. Every GM candidate will have his advocates in the hockey community and we've heard from many advocating for some of the candidates.


Considering the lions share of Benning's time here was under Regier. Its a tad daft to argue the old boy network is in play because Muckler praised Benning. Add in the fact that Nolan hated Muckler and Patty L. was/is a Nolan guy. It makes the comment even more absurd.


Benning, like the other candidates, worked his way up through the ranks and is now a prime candidate to get a GM job.

given the laughing emoticon I think it was meant as a silly comment

 

[Paxon]

The old boy network stuff with Benning is just silly. Every GM candidate will have his advocates in the hockey community and we've heard from many advocating for some of the candidates.

Considering the lions share of Benning's time here was under Regier. Its a tad daft to argue the old boy network is in play because Muckler praised Benning. Add in the fact that Nolan hated Muckler and Patty L. was/is a Nolan guy. It makes the comment even more absurd.

Benning, like the other candidates, worked his way up through the ranks and is now a prime candidate to get a GM job.

How'd you go from not understanding my meaning to having such sharp opinions on it?

 

[dire wolf]

I'm not impressed with Benning's body of work in Buffalo, but at least he has been working with Chiarelli and the Bruins' successful front office recently.

I'm not sold on Fenton. The Predators have drafted well at D and goalie, I guess, but they haven't had a real scoring forward in years. They also let Suter go for nothing and traded a 1st for Paul Gaustad. I think they waived Peverley too. Somebody remind me why we want their assistant GM?

Also, Poile seems to be shopping Fenton a little too hard. Is he just a really nice guy, or is this really outplacement?

 

[joshjull]

I have my hesitation on Fenton and Benning for these same reasons you stated...

Fenton---what has Nashville done in drafting forwards?

Benning---the team between 1999-2001 didnt produce well in the draft.

1999 draft...

half the 1st round picks were busts. Only about 10 or so out of the 2nd & 3rd rounds had any long term NHL success--thus rating them as a successful pick.

2000 draft....

It was a little better where about 1/3 of the 1st were busts and about 14 out of 60 2nd/3rd rpund picks were succesful.

2001.....

1/3 of the 1st round were busts. About 13 2nd/3rd round picks were successful. Buffalo did better here in drafting Roy, Thornburn, and Pominville. Novotny get traded away to Washington for Zubrus at the 2007 deadline. I lessen the bust factor on Novotny because he was traded away and someteams teams need to do these kind of moves for cup runs.

I just have a bad feeling with Benning. with the comment below by Muckler give me a bad feeling of old boys network stuff.




Botterill, Treliving, and Fenton will get interviewed for this job. Unsure with Loiselle.

When Benning was here (9 drafts - > 98-06) they drafted 19 NHL players; Kalinin, Peters, Kotalik, Miller, Goose, Roy, Pommer, Thorburn, Ballard, Paille, Wideman, Vanek, MacArthur, Hejda, Stafford, Sekera, Kaleta, Enroth, Weber


TO ZIP:

As for the failure rate on first rounders. In those 9 years we had 8 first rounders. Only one was a top 5 pick (Vanek at #5). The next best picks were Ballard at #11, Stafford at #13. The other 5 first rounders were picks 15th, 18th, 20th, 22nd, 24th and we only hit with one of them (Kalinin at #18 in 98)


Not sure how that is a failing record based on league averages.

 

[joshjull]

How'd you go from not understanding my meaning to having such sharp opinions on it?

Djp not you. Wanted to make two points from his post but didn't want to quote it both times or have it all in one response.

 

[joshjull]

I'm not impressed with Benning's body of work in Buffalo, but at least he has been working with Chiarelli and the Bruins' successful front office recently.

I'm not sold on Fenton. The Predators have drafted well at D and goalie, I guess, but they haven't had a real scoring forward in years. They also let Suter go for nothing and traded a 1st for Paul Gaustad. I think they waived Peverley too. Somebody remind me why we want their assistant GM?

Also, Poile seems to be shopping Fenton a little too hard. Is he just a really nice guy, or is this really outplacement?

What leaves you unimpressed?

I'm not sure who I want but I think Benning is getting a bum rap on here.

 

[Chainshot]

What leaves you unimpressed?

I'm not sure who I want but I think Benning is getting a bum rap on here.

His second rounds outside of one were generally a disaster. The 2000 draft is one of the worst in team history not only in terms of NHL level talent but organizationally. I hated Luce when the scouting department ran through him and was happy to have someone else but looking back on it years later, I actually like Benning's drafts about as much as Luce's.

 

[NotABadPeriod]

It should also be noted that just as players can develop over time, so can executives. It's not unreasonable to suggest that Benning's (or anyone else's for that matter) drafting skills may have improved with more experience. It's hard to prove one way or the other because how teams structure their decision making process can vary widely though.

 

[SabresFan26]

I'm not impressed with Benning's body of work in Buffalo, but at least he has been working with Chiarelli and the Bruins' successful front office recently.

I'm not sold on Fenton. The Predators have drafted well at D and goalie, I guess, but they haven't had a real scoring forward in years. They also let Suter go for nothing and traded a 1st for Paul Gaustad. I think they waived Peverley too. Somebody remind me why we want their assistant GM?

Also, Poile seems to be shopping Fenton a little too hard. Is he just a really nice guy, or is this really outplacement?

I know he is in the KHL but he is a supreme talent. Alex Radulov was drafted by Fenton

 

[SabresFan26]

It should also be noted that just as players can develop over time, so can executives. It's not unreasonable to suggest that Benning's (or anyone else's for that matter) drafting skills may have improved with more experience. It's hard to prove one way or the other because how teams structure their decision making process can vary widely though.

or Devine could draft and Benning could handle assembling the team

 

[Djp]

When Benning was here (9 drafts - > 98-06) they drafted 19 NHL players; Kalinin, Peters, Kotalik, Miller, Goose, Roy, Pommer, Thorburn, Ballard, Paille, Wideman, Vanek, MacArthur, Hejda, Stafford, Sekera, Kaleta, Enroth, Weber


TO ZIP:

As for the failure rate on first rounders. In those 9 years we had 8 first rounders. Only one was a top 5 pick (Vanek at #5). The next best picks were Ballard at #11, Stafford at #13. The other 5 first rounders were picks 15th, 18th, 20th, 22nd, 24th and we only hit with one of them (Kalinin at #18 in 98)


Not sure how that is a failing record based on league averages.

Djp not you. Wanted to make two points from his post but didn't want to quote it both times or have it all in one response.

Im right here......hello....


1998 there was Kalinin and Kotalik late.

1999-2000 were awful except for Miller and Gaustead

2001-2004 very good years

2005-2006 were poor years.

1999-2001 level of quality is comparable to 2005-2007 time period.

2005-2007 poor quality is part of the reason why this team is going through this rebuild now.

the 1999-2001 drafts were spared because of good quality in trades made in the early 2000s. Had they made decent draft picks in 1999 and 2000 those would have been added pieces for the cup run teams and part of the youth who could have taken over for the loss of Brierre and Drury.



His entire time here was under Darcy.....thought you wanted a fresh face here????

 

[Sean McG]

I'm not sold on Fenton. The Predators have drafted well at D and goalie, I guess, but they haven't had a real scoring forward in years. They also let Suter go for nothing and traded a 1st for Paul Gaustad. I think they waived Peverley too. Somebody remind me why we want their assistant GM?

Also, Poile seems to be shopping Fenton a little too hard. Is he just a really nice guy, or is this really outplacement?

This is pretty unfair to Fenton. How can you say "they drafted well, I guess" and go on to bash them for letting Suter go - one of the guys Fenton drafted (they reportedly offered him 13 years, 85 million, and I imagine Poile handled that negotiation. Not his fault Craig Leipold had more money.). When he managed their drafts from 03-08, he played a large part in drafting Shea Weber, Suter, Kevin Klein, Alex Radulov, Pekka Rinne, Cody Franson, Patric Hornqvist, Roman Josi, etc. Two of those players are two of the best defenseman in the league and one is one of the better goalies, and you also have to consider Nashville's resources and how they almost moved the team during those years.

Fair enough that they haven't gotten many forwards (they have always built from the back end with Trotz, though), and waiving Peverley was a bad move, but questioning him as a candidate because the team waived Peverley and traded a 1st for Gaustad is ridiculous... you didn't even mention he's been the GM of their AHL team that has been in the playoffs 11 straight years, with eight 40 win seasons in a row. The last line is crazy talk too. Fenton has worked with Poile since the Predators have existed, I doubt he just all of a sudden wants to eliminate the competition when they've worked together 16 years. Poile is one of the best GM's in the league, if he vouches for him, and Fenton himself is interested in the job (which he said he was) I think he's one of the better candidates.



I'm wondering what Devine's role is going to be when a new GM comes in, the draft is obviously the main focus right now and maybe a new GM will want to have the most input on it, or bring in someone else to run it. I think Devine handles the draft well and would love to see him kept on in any capacity, just not sure what another GM might think.

 

[Digable5]

Excuse my ignorance, and maybe also my redundancy because I've made this point before, but who is responsible for a team's draft? I imagine it is different for every team and possibly different for the situation. I can see a scenario where a GM has final say on first round picks and leaves the rest of the draft to the AGM and scouting team. The point being, does an AGM's draft record matter when he is being considered for a GM position?

If the responsibility of drafting is the AGM's, why do we care what the potential GM has done in their draft history? If the draft falls on the GM's shoulders then why are we blaming the AGM for bad performances? And if the new GM has to be a master at trades we could have just kept Regier.

What Darcy hadn't had lately is a vision or direction/identity for the team. When he took over the team he and Nolan/Ruff put a team in front of Hasek that played defense first and tried to counterattack. After the lockout they went full offense and relied on Miller to allow less than what they could put in the opponents net. I want a GM that can put the players they have in the best positions to succeed and then build around an identity that suits the core. Any player that falls outside of that vision is expendable even if they are valued by fans and other teams for their talent. Meaning, trading Vanek for grinders would be unpopular, but if it makes the team better, who cares? I want championships not celebrities.

When I hear WGR and others talk about the Sabres being in the entertainment business and needing to make moves for the fans it sickens me. I don't watch the games to see names I recognize or hoping they will start juggling knives to be entertained. Winning is entertaining. Losing is not. Give me a GM that can help us win, not (just) a name I would be familiar with or make "popular" moves.

 

[Sean McG]

Excuse my ignorance, and maybe also my redundancy because I've made this point before, but who is responsible for a team's draft? I imagine it is different for every team and possibly different for the situation. I can see a scenario where a GM has final say on first round picks and leaves the rest of the draft to the AGM and scouting team. The point being, does an AGM's draft record matter when he is being considered for a GM position?

If the responsibility of drafting is the AGM's, why do we care what the potential GM has done in their draft history? If the draft falls on the GM's shoulders then why are we blaming the AGM for bad performances? And if the new GM has to be a master at trades we could have just kept Regier.

You're right that it varies from organization to organization, I guess I really have no idea but I'd assume most of the GM's are the final decision makers when it comes to the draft. Hate to base it off a 5-minute long video, but you can see in the Sabres blue & gold draft videos how Devine is really active in talking about who could fall to the team, who they want, the different situations that could play out, etc., and Darcy was on the phone for trade opportunities but also had some say in who got picked. Obviously it's a huge process that involves input from every single scout that eventually gets filtered down, then during the draft there's input from everyone, but ultimately you have a few people who make the decision.

Definitely one of the things that makes it difficult when trying to evaluate candidates for this job from our point of view. All we really know about any of these guys are things written in articles about them and what they did for their teams, but even those hardly capture what actually goes on.

 

[Team Cozens]

Excuse my ignorance, and maybe also my redundancy because I've made this point before, but who is responsible for a team's draft? I imagine it is different for every team and possibly different for the situation. I can see a scenario where a GM has final say on first round picks and leaves the rest of the draft to the AGM and scouting team. The point being, does an AGM's draft record matter when he is being considered for a GM position?

If the responsibility of drafting is the AGM's, why do we care what the potential GM has done in their draft history? If the draft falls on the GM's shoulders then why are we blaming the AGM for bad performances? And if the new GM has to be a master at trades we could have just kept Regier

What Darcy hadn't had lately is a vision or direction/identity for the team. When he took over the team he and Nolan/Ruff put a team in front of Hasek that played defense first and tried to counterattack. After the lockout they went full offense and relied on Miller to allow less than what they could put in the opponents net. I want a GM that can put the players they have in the best positions to succeed and then build around an identity that suits the core. Any player that falls outside of that vision is expendable even if they are valued by fans and other teams for their talent. Meaning, trading Vanek for grinders would be unpopular, but if it makes the team better, who cares? I want championships not celebrities.

When I hear WGR and others talk about the Sabres being in the entertainment business and needing to make moves for the fans it sickens me. I don't watch the games to see names I recognize or hoping they will start juggling knives to be entertained. Winning is entertaining. Losing is not. Give me a GM that can help us win, not (just) a name I would be familiar with or make "popular" moves.

Winning AFTER we draft McDavid.

 

[joshjull]

Im right here......hello....


1998 there was Kalinin and Kotalik late.

1999-2000 were awful except for Miller and Gaustead

2001-2004 very good years

2005-2006 were poor years.

1999-2001 level of quality is comparable to 2005-2007 time period.

2005-2007 poor quality is part of the reason why this team is going through this rebuild now.

the 1999-2001 drafts were spared because of good quality in trades made in the early 2000s. Had they made decent draft picks in 1999 and 2000 those would have been added pieces for the cup run teams and part of the youth who could have taken over for the loss of Brierre and Drury.

The reason we are going through a rebuild is the team and depth we had coming out of the lockout was quickly dismantled by the contract policies of the previous ownership. We lost a lot of talent for nothing and those 3 draft years weren't going to overcome that unless we had 2 or 3 home runs. That was also the time when our scouting dept was getting gutted and we were transitioning to video scouting.

How exactly does Benning get blamed for our 2007 draft when he wasn't even here?

His entire time here was under Darcy

Actually he was with Muckler for a few years as well.

.....thought you wanted a fresh face here???

I want a qualified GM. Benning is one of many candidates that could fill the bill and I'm not sure who I want yet.

 

[Djp]

The reason we are going through a rebuild is the team and depth we had coming out of the lockout was quickly dismantled by the contract policies of the previous ownership. We lost a lot of talent for nothing and those 3 draft years weren't going to overcome that unless we had 2 or 3 home runs. That was also the time when our scouting dept was getting gutted and we were transitioning to video scouting.

How exactly does Benning get blamed for our 2007 draft when he wasn't even here?



Actually he was with Muckler for a few years as well.



I want a qualified GM. Benning is one of many candidates that could fill the bill and I'm not sure who I want yet.

I agree...and I have mentioned it before in prior threads that to have that much talent walk without getting anything back hurt....the list includes: Drury, Briere, Dumont, McKee, Talinder, Lydman, Zubrus, etc.

2007 draft has some affect by him since scouting would be looking at future prospects...not just that current years prospects. He had some work involved in the 2007 draft. 2005-2006 season he would have been involved in the early scouting of 2007 draft.

He was here under Muckler and Regier----I want an outsider.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Man, some people are picking apart Benning, are you doing the same for the other candidates?