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Player Discussion Neal Pionk

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Pionk doesn't even pass the eye test consistently either, but alright. :dunno:

Clearly there is nothing that will change your minds, so might as well move on.
 
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Irishguy42 said:
Moving goalposts to an argument that isn't really better.

We're done here.
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Moving goal posts? no, not really. If anything you moved it.. Paraphrasing; He sucks trade him - well, he's inconsistent

People hate on Pionk because of poor analytics. Like I said before, he's not a perfect player. He's showing flashes of what he can do and has been solid.

It's amazing how much hate a rookie player gets
 
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Pionk has replaced Shattenkirk on the 1st unit PP and was on the ice with the Rangers "top" forwards when they pulled Lundqvist. Shattenkirk was on the bench. The coaches must view it as Pionk > Shattenkirk based on how the ice time is being distributed.
 
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Love Pionk. He’s terrific. I see a guy who gets himself in the right place and uses his body extremely well. Also he doesn’t mind sticking his nose in the scrum and skating through trouble. He’s a player.
 
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RangerBoy said:
Pionk has replaced Shattenkirk on the 1st unit PP and was on the ice with the Rangers "top" forwards when they pulled Lundqvist. Shattenkirk was on the bench. The coaches must view it as Pionk > Shattenkirk based on how the ice time is being distributed.
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Imagine that, NHL coaches knowing more than some keyboard warriors. Who would've thought?
 
The S5 said:
Imagine that, NHL coaches knowing more than some keyboard warriors. Who would've thought?
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Not that it is necessarily false that an NHL coach knows more than Random Guy On The Internet, but the fact that a coach has decided to play one player over another doesn't prove that to be the case whatsoever.

You're arguing that the coach knows best because he decided to do something, regardless of what that thing is, I.E. the coach is infallible - which is something I vehemently disagree with. If the coach decided to play McLeod on the top line and PP1 while scratching Zibanejad, I'd say that is the wrong decision regardless if it was the coach that took it because there is a lot of data that suggests it to be a very, very bad idea.
 
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Blue Blooded said:
Not that it is necessarily false that an NHL coach knows more than Random Guy On The Internet, but the fact that a coach has decided to play one player over another doesn't prove that to be the case whatsoever.

You're arguing that the coach knows best because he decided to do something, regardless of what that thing is, I.E. the coach is infallible - which is something I vehemently disagree with. If the coach decided to play McLeod on the top line and PP1 while scratching Zibanejad, I'd say that is the wrong decision regardless if it was the coach that took it because there is a lot of data that suggests it to be a very, very bad idea.
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Did the coach do that?
Yes, a coach who watches the team practice almost every day does have a better sense of a players ability. On top of that, you don't get to be an NHL coach without knowing more than 99.9% of keyboard jockeys.

I'm not arguing that a coach knows more because of an individual move that he makes, because coaches do things that don't work all of the time. What I am saying is a coach knows his team and the game more than HF posters. That doesn't mean fans can't question what the coach is doing, but they are probably wrong.
 
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The S5 said:
Did the coach do that?
Yes, a coach who watches the team practice almost every day does have a better sense of a players ability. On top of that, you don't get to be an NHL coach without knowing more than 99.9% of keyboard jockeys.

I'm not arguing that a coach knows more because of an individual move that he makes, because coaches do things that don't work all of the time. What I am saying is a coach knows his team and the game more than HF posters. That doesn't mean fans can't question what the coach is doing, but they are probably wrong.
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It's a hypothetical. If Quinn decided to do that, would he be correct in doing so in your opinion? Your line of argumentation states that you would consider the move to be correct, since the coach thought it was correct.

If not, how do you discern whether the coach's move was correct or not?
 
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Blue Blooded said:
It's a hypothetical. If Quinn decided to do that, would he be correct in doing so in your opinion? Your line of argumentation states that you would consider the move to be correct, since the coach thought it was correct.

If not, how do you discern whether the coach's move was correct or not?
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Please stop. I'm not arguing anything. I'm stating a fact. Coaches know more about the game and their team than anyone else, the least of whom are HF posters.

To answer your hypothetical, first off, Quinn hasn't done anything as drastic as what you stated. If he ever did, I'm sure he has a reason unbeknownst to those outside of the immediate team. And, how does one discern whether a coach's move was correct, they don't. They merely speculate based on the outcome.

This team is bad and fans should know that this was going to be the case this season. Questioning a coach after every loss is going to make a tough season even tougher.
 
ManUtdTobbe said:
"stating a fact" when appealing to authority, classic.
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Appeal to authority can be just as much of a valid argument, as a fallacy. It all depends on the authority. If the authority is generally agreed to be valid and reliable, then it's not really a fallacy. If you think Quinn is valid and reliable as an authority figure, then there's no problem with it. I don't think I'm there with Quinn, yet. But I can't dismiss his decisions out of hand.
 
The S5 said:
Please stop. I'm not arguing anything. I'm stating a fact. Coaches know more about the game and their team than anyone else, the least of whom are HF posters.

To answer your hypothetical, first off, Quinn hasn't done anything as drastic as what you stated. If he ever did, I'm sure he has a reason unbeknownst to those outside of the immediate team. And, how does one discern whether a coach's move was correct, they don't. They merely speculate based on the outcome.

This team is bad and fans should know that this was going to be the case this season. Questioning a coach after every loss is going to make a tough season even tougher.
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It's an reducto ad absurdum to see if the principle is sound.

I'm going to take this as a "yes" to the question: If Quinn decides to scratch Zibanejad and play McLeod in his place is it the right call because the coach did so?

My answer would be "no" since their previous performance in the NHL strongly suggests that Zibanejad will perform significantly better in the role and the limitations in McLeod's game vastly overshadows whatever aspect he brings that Quinn thought would be a benefit. I assume that most people would agree with me in this particular case.
 
ManUtdTobbe said:
Not saying i do, just saying that appealing to authority is ALWAYS a trash argument.
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It's not, though. I could list dozens of hypothetical scenarios where it isn't.

Maybe it's more "trash" in sports where there is a higher level of subjectivity, but outside of sports and into other realms with actual subject matter experts, it's not garbage.
 
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The S5 said:
Did the coach do that?
Yes, a coach who watches the team practice almost every day does have a better sense of a players ability. On top of that, you don't get to be an NHL coach without knowing more than 99.9% of keyboard jockeys.

I'm not arguing that a coach knows more because of an individual move that he makes, because coaches do things that don't work all of the time. What I am saying is a coach knows his team and the game more than HF posters. That doesn't mean fans can't question what the coach is doing, but they are probably wrong.
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Many, if not almost all, who post here see the players as data points on a spreadsheet, that will only do what those data points say. These players will never waver from those data points. So, even if a coach wanted to "send a message" to one of these players with better data points because said player isn't producing said data points, it's the wrong decision because the overall data points tell us otherwise.

It's why so many get mad when a lazy Buchnevich gets benched or why Chytil gets benched after a bad play.
 
ManUtdTobbe said:
Not saying i do, just saying that appealing to authority is ALWAYS a trash argument.
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Blue Blooded said:
It's an reducto ad absurdum to see if the principle is sound.

I'm going to take this as a "yes" to the question: If Quinn decides to scratch Zibanejad and play McLeod in his place is it the right call because the coach did so?

My answer would be "no" since their previous performance in the NHL strongly suggests that Zibanejad will perform significantly better in the role and the limitations in McLeod's game vastly overshadows whatever aspect he brings that Quinn thought would be a benefit. I assume that most people would agree with me in this particular case.
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But Quinn hasn't done that, or anything as drastic. Why make this hypothetical example?
Let's be specific, you don't like Pionk, which is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Does that mean Pionk isn't a good player? Nope. I'm sure you are in the camp that prefers ADA. Does it make him a better player? Nope. Does Quinn get to see these guys on a daily basis? Yep. Is he making his decisions on the feedback he has gotten by watching these players each day? Yep. Am I appealing to authority? Nope.

If I walk into a Thomas Keller's French restaurant and order a dish I have never tried before, should I question the chef's preparation? Maybe, but it would be silly of me to think I know more about French cooking.
 
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