Player Discussion Neal Pionk

[Inferno]

I don't think pionks value will ever be higher than it is right now...if u could Rob chiarelli or someone...I'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

[SML2]

lets be reality.

pionk on a good hockey team is a 3rd pair guy who maybe gets some 2nd pp time. maybe

You had me at "Let's be reality"

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Damn...this is two monster posts in a row

Of course, if you think he's a bad player it's alarming...

I strongly suspect you’re looking at rookie mistakes, ignoring what he’s doing well and I’m not sure what you’re definition of “bad” is.

we just witnessed great Rangers' teams dragged down by dual anchors on the blueline given like treatment ...

And to say it's fine since you see him as a #3-4 not a #1 does not address the concern that the team views him differently

Don’t you remember when those’ dual anchors’ completely shut down other teams top lines? After awhile they did become praised anchors .
Still, your comparable barely works as a cautionary tale.
Those were two old ass beat down Dmen in decline, coached by an asshole. This is a rookie with room to grow
To the last part:
It’s not supposed to address that concern. You are not considering a LOT. Who exactly told you that the team views him differently?

He's a rookie, temporarily tested in a role while a vet isn't producing. This does not suggest he's seen as a guaranteed 1. His time in that role has been too short and this season is too experimental to make that assumption.

When, after 36 gp, Pionk is playing 25-29 minutes a night (!) and replacing Kevin Shattenkirk on your PP1, it doesn't look like a player viewed as having #3-4/PP2 upside

Average time on ice through 36 career games: 22:27
Avg TOI in 8 games this season: 22: 40

He temporarily replaced a vet who was not producing. This is common place in every NHL season. He produced. He’s been allowed to stay. It’s an experimental season where rookies will be tested in various roles.

This allows us to see what they can do, it also allows us to know what we need to acquire in the upcoming 2 years.

Shattenkirk? I thought that would be obvious. And if the Rangers are really worried about his injury, wouldn't it be more prudent to throw a veteran...i? Couldn't the answer be anyone else...?
I think it's clear that I don't think Pionk is a #1 RD on any team, let alone a playoff team

I also thought it was obvious that this was an experimental season.
No one else capable? A team full of young players? Freedom to lose any game? Struggling vet? Seems like the literal perfect time to let a rookie try his hand at it.

To the bold:
Irrelevant. This team is focused on development, not the PO’s. You need to know what the young kids can do so you can clearly ID holes on the squad and fill them with talent later on.

. I understand that this is all a matter of circumstance.

You aren’t getting what that means or how that manifest throughout an 82 game season though.

but it seems the rationale for things has been subject to change to explain away concerns at any moment.
I'm not concerned about how Pionk's usage effects this season's results. I am concerned that it's indicative of the management and coaching staff evaluating him as a player with higher upside and impact than he's actually shown to have.

What specific things would match what you’re saying in the first part? This Pionk example doesn’t.

“Explain away” suggests that something alarming is being carelessly ignored.. I think you’re confusing that term for what’s really going on, which is that several posters are simply explaining a possibly temporary change in the lineup, a change that makes complete sense in this specific scenario.

It’s very possible that he has several talents that allow him to be a fill in. Now is the time to find out. Nothing suggests that this is permanent.

- you left out 20lbs-lighter-Smith.
- so... if Pionk is a #4-5, Is that better than Shattenkirk at >100 or McQ?
- if a defenseman has to play way above what they're capable of, should it be one with 350-600GP or one with 36GP?

This comment and the one I bolded earlier flies completely in the face of what you said before.

I'm not concerned about how Pionk's usage effects this season's results.

Those two points suggest strongly that you are concerned about this season's results. Your point only makes sense if you care about this season’s results.

 

[LORDE]

So much more to gripe about on this team than Pionk. Jeez

 

[Filthy Dangles]

I don't think pionks value will ever be higher than it is right now...if u could Rob chiarelli or someone...I'd do it in a heartbeat.

What would be 'robbing' them? I think the absolute most someone would give for him is something like a 2nd round pick. Still not sure I'd do that. And I doubt teams value him that highly anyway.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

lets be reality.

pionk on a good hockey team is a 3rd pair guy who maybe gets some 2nd pp time. maybe

And this team is?

Mystery solved?

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Last example; was AV correct in playing Glass over Hayes against the Penguins in the 2016 playoffs?

Maybe...unless you drank the koolaid and thought that team was going anywhere, so you harped on minutiae when the big picture was a rebuild was around the corner.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

BB wades into this convo perfectly by acknowledging what merits lie with the foundation of S5's thought process. He then carefully explains the flaw


Here he clearly explains where the flaw was and he followed up later with a good use of an extreme hypothetical to drive home the point. The hypothetical was clearly not literal.



S5 immediately misconstrued that as a literal statement.



S5 seems to have completely failed to grasp the opposing viewpoint in every single way imaginable. These are points that were already countered in the previous post and yet he makes these points again anyway.



10/10. Perfectly clarifies and highlights the flaw in S5's logic again in a clear, easy to understand way. S5 has to address the actual point now.



Argumentation: the action or process of reasoning systematically in support of an idea, action, or theory. S5 misunderstands and takes it as
Argument: Opposing a view, usually in an angry or heated fashion. He also reiterates his stance even though everyone understood it before.


S5 prepares us for an upcoming fact that he is going to communicate but he immediately offers a factually inaccurate opinion instead. LOL. Later, after reiterating his stance yet again, S5 offers this:


Not by blindly accepting every decision a coach makes, that's for sure.



Maybe... for some people who actually DO that. Many of us can handle questioning a coach only occasionally, when a decision seems particularly egregious.



This was my fav part. Because it was answered waaay earlier. S5 then decides to veer the conversation into a ravine and starts to build what he thinks is a great counter point.



But it flames out horribly when he douses it with terrible analogies and a completely incorrect conclusion (When he states he is not appealing to authority even though he has...repeatedly.)

May I interject?

It’s not a blind appeal to authority to trust the coach over poster or a certain group of posters [not you @shinchanuuhh ]

It is true that a coach could not know anything and also be wrong alot, but wr are not privy to his specifc inner thoughts.

Thankfully many of the posters to which I refered have had no qualms and apparently had neither a loss in self - confidence nor a change in tone and opinion have left us with a tresure trove of pure nonsense.

So I agree. Appeal to authority for the sake of it is a classic fallacy, but I have a feeling @S5 was beating around the bush a bit.

When does credibilty come into play?

 

[Nopuckluck]

Pionk has completely fallen off a cliff the last two games. Horrendous play. Useless actually

 

[FireGerardGallant]

Pionk has completely fallen off a cliff the last two games. Horrendous play. Useless actually

No one saw this coming

 

[Nopuckluck]

No one saw this coming

I’ve never been a fan. Bottom pair player at best

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Pionk has completely fallen off a cliff the last two games. Horrendous play. Useless actually

Are there stats to back this up? He seems to be playing his usual game (according to my eye test)

 

[Ola]

I don't think pionks value will ever be higher than it is right now...if u could Rob chiarelli or someone...I'd do it in a heartbeat.

He is by far playing the toughest minutes. 35th in the NHL in TOI/game, and averaging over 25 minutes a night.

If he has issues, and corsi rel just can’t be explained by the toughest matchups by far coming with him and not his partners — why are these problems assumed to be completely unstoppable?

Many players have fixed all kind of issues.

 

[Machinehead]

lets be reality.

pionk on a good hockey team is a 3rd pair guy who maybe gets some 2nd pp time. maybe

He should be that on this team...

 

[Edge]

The defense in general has several guys playing above their ideal usage.

Pionk and Skjei are prime examples of this. I think if they were both slotted down a pairing, on a good team, I really don't think there's be a ton of debate.

Unfortunately, that's not where the team is right now.

I don't think any of this is terribly surprising. While much of the focus went toward how the forwards would produce, and most of the more optimistic projections about this team featured several guys having better than average years, there really wasn't nearly enough talk about the defense.

It came up from time to time with a few posters, but then the conversation quickly returned to the offense. So here we are, talking about a defense that currently has guys who should be slotting in the 3-7 range being asked to pick up the slack for the 1-2 slots.

 

[offdacrossbar]

pionk plays a ton and plays a ton against top lines and plays a ton with partners that arent exactly norris trophy candidates.

as a vocal ADA fanboy, i gotta say pionk has done pretty well. his defensive reads and ability to engage isnt what i would like and he does seem allergic to contact sometimes but hes young and learning on the fly. hes being overplayed and thats gonna catch up to him when he hits the wall. adrenaline only goes so far.

i would like to see him play less for sure but he shouldn't be scratched. hes answered every bell. hes way in over his head but hes been pretty decent overall considering.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Pionk doesn't "look" like an NHL player. It's hard to describe. He's a decent skater but when I watch him skate and his stride I'm like "this guy just doesn't look like an NHL defenseman' out there. Idk what it is.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Defensemen we should complain about in order
Mcquaid
Staal
Smith
Shattenkirk (not 100%)
Deangeleo (for whatever kept him out)
Claussen (played ok when he was in)
Pionk
Skjei

 

[Edge]

I also think we need to keep in mind that this kid hasn't even played 100 games of professional hockey yet --- combined. In fact, assuming he plays every game, I don't even think he'll hit the mark until a month from now.

We spend so much time talking about the importance of giving ADA room to grow and develop, and yet we seem to subconsciously view Pionk like he's an older rookie with more experience. He's all of 12 weeks older than ADA and has less than half the professional experience.

So despite being thrown into the deep end, I think we have to grade on a weeeeee bit of a curve here.

 

[effen]

Lot of vitriol for a UDFA who has been and continues to wildly outperform expectations

 

[Edge]

Lot of vitriol for a UDFA who has been and continues to wildly outperform expectations

If Pionk was a third or fourth round pick, I can’t help but feel like we’d be a little more accepting of what Pionk is and isn’t.

 

[Machinehead]

Pionk doesn't "look" like an NHL player. It's hard to describe. He's a decent skater but when I watch him skate and his stride I'm like "this guy just doesn't look like an NHL defenseman' out there. Idk what it is.

Could be that he can't play defense?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Defensemen we should complain about in order
Mcquaid
Staal
Smith
Shattenkirk (not 100%)
Deangeleo (for whatever kept him out)
Claussen (played ok when he was in)
Pionk
Skjei

Any list that doesn't have Staal #1 is incorrect.

 

[Bluto]

Lot of vitriol for a UDFA who has been and continues to wildly outperform expectations

Close the thread. Post of the year

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Could be that he can't play defense?

Well I guess that (although I think there's some things he does pretty well) but i was referring to his skating. Just his stance/stride something looks off. He's got pretty quick feet but he's not very powerful or strong at all. Not a great first step. He can skate when he gets a chance to wind up but can't explode out of the zone like the elite skaters.

I think that's a reason he struggles moving the puck clean at times. He doesn't get separation with the first step and he's forced to throw the puck away a lot.