Player Discussion Neal Pionk

[DanielBrassard]

Well I guess that (although I think there's some things he does pretty well) but i was referring to his skating. Just his stance/stride something looks off. He's got pretty quick feet but he's not very powerful or strong at all. Not a great first step. He can skate when he gets a chance to wind up but can't explode out of the zone like the elite skaters.

I think that's a reason he struggles moving the puck clean at times. He doesn't get separation with the first step and he's forced to throw the puck away a lot.

Could be the case, I have thought the same thing at times. Pionk's just a fascinating player, there is such a disconnect between the skillset/belief of his skillset and the analytics. It's not like a Girardi or Staal situation where their physical abilities are just diminished that it's easy to point out why that's true. I'd love to see video and figure out what the issue is.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

Could be the case, I have thought the same thing at times. Pionk's just a fascinating player, there is such a disconnect between the skillset/belief of his skillset and the analytics. It's not like a Girardi or Staal situation where their physical abilities are just diminished that it's easy to point out why that's true. I'd love to see video and figure out what the issue is.

stop looking at stupid analytics.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

stop looking at stupid analytics.

lol "stupid analytics"

 

[darko]

stop looking at stupid analytics.

They aren't stupid. I just think they have fair way to improve.

 

[Ola]

Could be the case, I have thought the same thing at times. Pionk's just a fascinating player, there is such a disconnect between the skillset/belief of his skillset and the analytics. It's not like a Girardi or Staal situation where their physical abilities are just diminished that it's easy to point out why that's true. I'd love to see video and figure out what the issue is.

Come on, it’s not ONLY two camp of posters here thinking differently. Some claim that he is a AHL caliber defender and others that he is doing fairly well with potential to become better.

But no less than four NHL coaches have put very heavy trust in him. AV played him a ton. Quinn played him a ton. I am sure they are taking input from Ruff. And he was picked for the US WC team. Quinn is a big analytics guy.

Look at Skjei’s CF when he played those easy minutes with Smith compared to what happens when he gets the shut down role. Girardi.

I am — not — saying that analytics get Pionk wrong. Definitely not. What is the big problem? PUCK TEMPO. Pionk takes too much time with the puck coming out of our end, we face a collected D and struggle to get through it. He definitely has work to do.

But I definitely think the proportions are off in how the analytics are interpreted is off. Ie that he sucks as much as it’s claimed that he sucks.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

I think his biggest issue is his decision making, it's slow and poor and leads to him just tossing the puck up the wall or backing into his zone giving up the zone entry.

 

[aufheben]

They aren't stupid. I just think they have fair way to improve.

What do we need to know to judge a defenseman?

 

[darko]

What do we need to know to judge a defenseman?

Combination of eye test and analytics.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I think some people focus too much on analytics. Ideally, you judge a player based on both what you see, and what the numbers look like.

 

[tradenashnow]

I think his biggest issue is his decision making, it's slow and poor and leads to him just tossing the puck up the wall or backing into his zone giving up the zone entry.

Completely wrong and total lie. It's like some of you watch the games with your eyes closed.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

Completely wrong and total lie. It's like some of you watch the games with your eyes closed.

Okay, so please prove to me why i'm wrong with anything tangible. Because i have actual objective numbers to back up what i'm saying and i'll be happy to provide them if you want me to.

Before you call me a liar you could come up with an actual counter argument.

 

[aufheben]

I think some people focus too much on analytics. Ideally, you judge a player based on both what you see, and what the numbers look like.

But why just for Pionk's defense and not his offense?

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

I think some people focus too much on analytics. Ideally, you judge a player based on both what you see, and what the numbers look like.

What i see when i watch Pionk goes hand in hand with what i see when i look at the numbers. He gets stuck in his own zone because he's way too passive defending the blueline and he is really bad at moving the puck. His decision making is poor and slow so he ends up tossing the puck up the boards a lot which leads to a turnover where the opponents attack our blueline and get a free entry because once again, he can't defend the blueline…

He does have the tools to be a good D-man but he's not using those tools in a good way right now. He needs to be coached to skate the puck out more and to actually hold onto it and find good outlet passes instead of giving it away by tossing it up the boards. And defensively he needs to be more aggressive and use any kind of gap Control to not give up free entries.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

What i see when i watch Pionk goes hand in hand with what i see when i look at the numbers. He gets stuck in his own zone because he's way too passive defending the blueline and he is really bad at moving the puck. His decision making is poor and slow so he ends up tossing the puck up the boards a lot which leads to a turnover where the opponents attack our blueline and get a free entry because once again, he can't defend the blueline…

He does have the tools to be a good D-man but he's not using those tools in a good way right now. He needs to be coached to skate the puck out more and to actually hold onto it and find good outlet passes instead of giving it away by tossing it up the boards. And defensively he needs to be more aggressive and use any kind of gap Control to not give up free entries.

And how much of his performance is the result of him playing a larger role than he should? At the moment we don't have anyone capable of playing against top-line opposition. I am not saying criticizing Pionk is unwarranted, but I expect him to struggle in his current position.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

And how much of his performance is the result of him playing a larger role than he should? At the moment we don't have anyone capable of playing against top-line opposition. I am not saying criticizing Pionk is unwarranted, but I expect him to struggle in his current position.

Some of it maybe, but worth noting that he spends most of his time with Kreider-Zibanejad-X and we know from studies that QoT matters way more then QoC, him playing more actual minutes then he should might matter though.

 

[Ola]

Some of it maybe, but worth noting that he spends most of his time with Kreider-Zibanejad-X and we know from studies that QoT matters way more then QoC, him playing more actual minutes then he should might matter though.

In this context this argument can be torn to pieces to be honest.

Of course it matters more who you play with in general than who you play against. Teams have fundamental structures, 3/4/5 man units that have chemistry and a set game in place. If you move around 1/2 guys among that structure their stats will of course be more impacted by going into a certain unit than changing opponents. Pionk has been scratched two games during which McQuid played his minutes. McQuaid had 25 CF% and 29 CF% respectively in those two games, his partner Skjei had 32% and 40%...

Sometimes it sounds like we would have a pairing that would have 50 CF% playing those minutes if Pionk didn't dress.

Again, I am not saying that Pionk does not have issues that he can work on -- just saying that his numbers are blown out of proportion because of poor knowledge of how our team functions and reliance on studies like that one that you refer to which is very general and just cannot even remotely be implemented into every specific situation.

Its like this with many situations. I am sure that you can make a study that shows that a player's ability to score goals impacts his goal scoring more than linemates. That doesn't mean that someone playing with Mario in 1989 didn't got an extremely boosted goals count from it...

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Analytics are being manipulated by players now, when they first came in they were useful but now players are holding onto the puck longer in times they are unchecked, getting off the ice before the puck comes back into their end, etc etc, even if that is the wrong play as long as the analytics support their play. If you dont use analytics as a support for what you are seeing on the ice you will not get the full picture anymore. If the eye test says "x" and analytics back it up then that's a valid argument, if analytics say something and it isnt backed up by what you are seeing you have to question the analytics.

 

[offdacrossbar]

What i see when i watch Pionk goes hand in hand with what i see when i look at the numbers. He gets stuck in his own zone because he's way too passive defending the blueline and he is really bad at moving the puck. His decision making is poor and slow so he ends up tossing the puck up the boards a lot which leads to a turnover where the opponents attack our blueline and get a free entry because once again, he can't defend the blueline…

He does have the tools to be a good D-man but he's not using those tools in a good way right now. He needs to be coached to skate the puck out more and to actually hold onto it and find good outlet passes instead of giving it away by tossing it up the boards. And defensively he needs to be more aggressive and use any kind of gap Control to not give up free entries.

yes.

being "good defensively" is more than defending. ill compare pionk and ADA.

pionk isnt there yet on the parts you mentioned and accurately i must say.

actually, deangelo excels in those areas pionk is weak. ADA can move the puck crisply, exit and enter the zone and skate it out of trouble. he doesnt give the puck up too quickly but pionk indeed does and sometimes without pressure. hes very mechanical in that way. ADA thinks more and reacts.

as far as actually playing defense, ADA is quite competent. his gaps are usually solid, his stop/start and hip swivel is good and his ability to read plays and turn the puck the other way is a strength.

pionk gives up too much space , backs up too much and doesnt engage enough. hes passive.

its an understanding of the position that pionk lacks. pionk doesnt process the game yet while ADA has that part down.

 

[tradenashnow]

I have the nonsense posters say about players were true, Quinn wouldn't be giving them the most ice time. The only thing ADA has down is screwing up. He's been dealt multiple times already and he's not 24.

 

[Matz03]

He does have the tools to be a good D-man but he's not using those tools in a good way right now. He needs to be coached to skate the puck out more and to actually hold onto it and find good outlet passes instead of giving it away by tossing it up the boards. And defensively he needs to be more aggressive and use any kind of gap Control to not give up free entries.

I think this is a really fair objective assessment. The poster's who just repeat "he's bad a defending" are just taking the lazy way out. Pionk has the tools to be a much better puck mover, he shows flashes of this regularly. He's good a defending odd man rushes and generally decent at breaking up passes and lanes. He's decent offensively too. But he for sure uses the bank off the boards play far too often, not sure if he's programmed to make the "safe play" from prior coaching? Maybe doesn't trust his forwards enough who often put him on his heels. I'm sure it's a combination. He needs to process the game quicker, he has the feet to slow things down and pass it out or skate it out instead of just throwing the puck out off the glass. I need to watch closely the point on zone entries, this hasn't stuck out to me but it makes sense with how often the play is in his end. Does he think he's too small to stand up guys, or is that prior coaching/habit? Would be interesting to see if he and coaching recognize these issues can help him improve or unlearn them.

 

[CasusBelli]

I think some people focus too much on analytics. Ideally, you judge a player based on both what you see, and what the numbers look like.

The endless debate between the analytics supporters and the eye-test supporters reminds me of the similarly endless debate between technical traders and fundamental investors. Very hard for a person one side of the fence to convince his opponent (for lack of a better word) to leave the other side.

 

[Mike in Houston]

The endless debate between the analytics supporters and the eye-test supporters reminds me of the similarly endless debate between technical traders and fundamental investors. Very hard for a person one side of the fence to convince his opponent (for lack of a better word) to leave the other side.

Sounds like Republicans and Democrats. LOL.

 

[CasusBelli]

Sounds like Republicans and Democrats. LOL.

Yes, except the analytics fellows should probably be more worried about Russian hackers, than the eye-test fellows should.

 

[gorangers0525]

yes.

being "good defensively" is more than defending. ill compare pionk and ADA.

pionk isnt there yet on the parts you mentioned and accurately i must say.

actually, deangelo excels in those areas pionk is weak. ADA can move the puck crisply, exit and enter the zone and skate it out of trouble. he doesnt give the puck up too quickly but pionk indeed does and sometimes without pressure. hes very mechanical in that way. ADA thinks more and reacts.

as far as actually playing defense, ADA is quite competent. his gaps are usually solid, his stop/start and hip swivel is good and his ability to read plays and turn the puck the other way is a strength.

pionk gives up too much space , backs up too much and doesnt engage enough. hes passive.

its an understanding of the position that pionk lacks. pionk doesnt process the game yet while ADA has that part down.

If Pionk was 30 everyone would be calling for him to be demoted to the AHL based on his play. But the little flashes of skill here and there, and at least having the possibility of improving, gets some fans excited I think. Hopefully he proves me wrong, but I just don’t see it. He’s beyond passive defensively, you know if the opposition is skating down his wing they’re getting a clear shot or pass.

 

[Ola]

I also think Tobbe notes good stuff in his post above.

I am not sure about the zone entries though. To even try to stand someone up at the blueline you need to have very good support. Its very much a team thing. The forward heading up ice must be pressured and the defender must have support from a backchecker that can cover behind him if he only manage to take the body but not the puck.

I saw someone at the trade board tear Skjei apart because he supposedly had bad zone entery data last year under AV. From my POV that is laugh worthy, neither AV nor Torts -- or any coach other, up until recently at least -- had their Ds ever try to stand up players at the blueline. That is what the whole gap control thing is about, nobody talked about gap control before the redline offside rule was removed. Before that people stepped people up and had structures in place to support it. The biggest difference after 05' was that when you couldn't whack forwards across the arms or hook them Nylander and co. skated eights around Ds trying the stand them up at the blueline.

Bob Hartley in Atlanta was one of the last coaches who tried to have a blueline that regularly tried to prevent zone entries.

Have this changed now? Honest question.