Player Discussion Neal Pionk

[nyr2k2]

Just to add context, Pionk has actually spent more TOI with Mika than Shatty has on the PP in this time span. Mika’s on-ice shooting% with Shatty/Pionk is 5.10/8.41 but the relHDCF% for Mika with Shatty:/ Pionk is 8.19/2.02.

This is all super-fascinating for those of us that didn't get the cheat sheet explaining relHDCF%.

 

[McRanger]

He's a detriment. A playoff team will not win with him unless he's buried. He will be exposed.

He has not been a good player. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say.

We almost won with Dan Girardi on our top pair and Marc Staal in our top 4.

I think we can survive Shattenkirk.

 

[SA16]

I don't think we're even talking about the same thing at this point. Did I say anywhere it was sustainable? Nope. But is it impressive? Yes. Especially when Shattenkirk can't buy an assist right now. You ride Pionk on the PP until he cools off. You don't put Shatty back there just because.

If Buchnevich scored 5 goals in 5 games, is it sustainable? Nope. Is it impressive? Yes.

Pionk isn't just handing the puck off to Zibby. He's part of the reason its working.

I didn't say it wasn't impressive. I did say "it's obviously a good thing that he has been producing"

But that said if it is not sustainable then there is no reason to keep him there and they should go back to Shattenkirk. Keeping him there is basically just the gambler's fallacy if that is the case.

 

[duhmetreE]

Well as the say you have to know when you’re beat. As we can all see from the objective logic above Shattenkirk is a detriment and a playoff team can’t win with him. It’s kind off odd that I’ve also been told in the past that a playoff team couldn’t win with Ovechkin or Kessel but what do i even know anymore?

Shattenkirk is not a good player. Analytics will not change my opinion.

We almost won with Dan Girardi on our top pair and Marc Staal in our top 4.

I think we can survive Shattenkirk.

They were no where near as bad as Shattenkirk.

Hopefully he turns it around BUT from what I've seen in his late StLouis days, from Washington and here... He's not a good player. Even worse in the playoffs

 

[lilphildub]

Just to add context, Pionk has actually spent more TOI with Mika than Shatty has on the PP in this time span. Mika’s on-ice shooting% with Shatty/Pionk is 5.10/8.41 but the relHDCF% for Mika with Shatty:/ Pionk is 8.19/2.02.

That's really interesting. Thanks for that and definitely adds more context. Where do you find TOI for linemates on the powerplay? I was looking for it but couldn't find it.

 

[SA16]

That's really interesting. Thanks for that and definitely adds more context. Where do you find TOI for linemates on the powerplay? I was looking for it but couldn't find it.

Neal Pionk - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

 

[DanielBrassard]

Shattenkirk is not a good player. Analytics will not change my opinion.



They were no where near as bad as Shattenkirk.

Hopefully he turns it around BUT from what I've seen in his late StLouis days, from Washington and here... He's not a good player. Even worse in the playoffs

Can you go into detail why?

 

[Crease]

Win what? The Blues routinely were one of the best teams in hockey with him as the #3.

He's in his ninth year. Shattenkirk is definitely not the same athlete he was in his mid-twenties.

 

[True Blue]

We almost won with Dan Girardi on our top pair and Marc Staal in our top 4.

I think we can survive Shattenkirk.

In all fairness, their level of defensive play at that point, was much better than Shattenkirk's.

Not that it makes a difference, as this team is NOT a playoff team.

 

[Mac n Gs]

This is all super-fascinating for those of us that didn't get the cheat sheet explaining relHDCF%.

Naturalstattrick measures their own grades of scoring chances as shot attempts that are regular scoring chances and shot attempts that are considered high-danger scoring chances.

My post was highlighting that the Rangers take more HDCF with Mika+Shatty than Mika+Pionk. However, the former has a 5% on-ice shooting% while the latter is at 8%. It’s a weird discrepancy that should regress back to the middle for both.

Again, I don’t dislike Pionk at all, and I genuinely want to see him succeed. I see a player with a good skill set that has flaws in his techniques. These flaws can and should be fixed with better coaching, and I hope to see that happen under Quinn and Greg Brown. It’s actually weird, he still doesn’t press his gaps hard enough when defending the neutral zone, but defends odd-man rushes well. He also can skate the puck up ice better than he can pass it.

 

[McRanger]

Shattenkirk is not a good player. Analytics will not change my opinion.

They were no where near as bad as Shattenkirk.

Hopefully he turns it around BUT from what I've seen in his late StLouis days, from Washington and here... He's not a good player.

Girardi and Staal were abortions on the ice by any possible standard.

Their advanced stats were awful, their regular stats, like shots and goals against were awful and using the eye test to watch them fumble around with the puck and constantly get trapped in their own zone was awful.

They were awful. Awful.

 

[duhmetreE]

Can you go into detail why?

Mainly his weak defensively play due to positioning, watching the puck/chasing, hustle, lack of physicality etc. I feel like when I watch him, he's always making questionable-poor decisions in the defensive zone. He does get pinned too often, which is not only his fault but it happens

I know he's a PP QB but even that I'm not impressed. Weak passes/floaters and decision making leaves me wanting. He's great at getting the puck through though. Can not stand his drop passes.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Girardi and Staal were abortions on the ice by any possible standard.

Their advanced stats were awful, their regular stats, like shots and goals against were awful and using the eye test to watch them fumble around with the puck and constantly get trapped in their own zone was awful.

They were awful. Awful.

Remember when Danny boy finished 6th in Norris voting that one year.

 

[duhmetreE]

Girardi and Staal were abortions on the ice by any possible standard.

Their advanced stats were awful, their regular stats, like shots and goals against were awful and using the eye test to watch them fumble around with the puck and constantly get trapped in their own zone was awful.

They were awful. Awful.

They ( Girardi mostly ) were bad at the end.. They were not always like that.

Staal has terrible hands and is slow and doofy. He has what Shatty doesn't. They would make a great player if they combined in some DBZ type fashion

 

[True Blue]

Win what? The Blues routinely were one of the best teams in hockey with him as the #3.

He was never the #3 defenseman. He was routinely sheltered and held off the ice in crucial situations.
Pionk has dragged down everyone he has played with, when it comes to shot generation and shot suppression. He also leads the Rangers defense in Toi%QoT and CF%QoT which indicates he has been

playing with the Rangers best players more often than anyone else. He also gets similar zone starts, for whatever they are worth, as supposedly terrible Shattenkirk.

This again? Do we need to rehash the folly of utilizing strictly metrics without any thought or context to be able to judge a player's worth?

 

[lilphildub]

Just to add context, Pionk has actually spent more TOI with Mika than Shatty has on the PP in this time span. Mika’s on-ice shooting% with Shatty/Pionk is 5.10/8.41 but the relHDCF% for Mika with Shatty:/ Pionk is 8.19/2.02.

I'm confused what you mean here. Because for Shatty I see he spent 134:11 with Zibby and only 14:01 without him on the PP. from 2017-2019.

Pionk 39:24 with. 9:15 without.

 

[Off Sides]

Because he's bad at defending his blue line and poor at helping transition the puck out of his zone? I don't really know the answer to that. Let's look at the CF/60 with and without Pionk for Skjei and Staal.

What I am seeing is when he is with Skjei he is about 47% ( a 7 attempt differential)

But when he is with Staal that drops to ~34% (a 33 attempt differential)

Is it really Pionk CF% that is bad, or is it Staal

Sure Staal without Pionk looks good, at 59%CF,

but Staal has played 43:19 with Smith ~57% CF

Staal without Smith ~43%

Not possible Smith is making Staal look good, which is why Staal without Pionk looks good?

 

[DanielBrassard]

Mainly his weak defensively play due to positioning, watching the puck/chasing, hustle, lack of physicality etc. I feel like when I watch him, he's always making questionable-poor decisions in the defensive zone. He does get pinned too often, which is not only his fault but it happens

I know he's a PP QB but even that I'm not impressed. Weak passes/floaters and decision making leaves me wanting. He's great at getting the puck through though. Can not stand his drop passes.

It's funny, because I think he's generally pretty good defensively from the blue line in. He has some struggles in front of the net tying up sticks, at least he has as a Ranger. But his biggest issue to me is how he handles the rush, often not gapping up enough and allowing easy zone entries. And he's not great at transitioning the puck out of his zone, but is very good at creating plays from the blueline in. His work as a PPQB is 2nd to none, and I am going to have to disagree with you there.

 

[lilphildub]

I didn't say it wasn't impressive. I did say "it's obviously a good thing that he has been producing"

But that said if it is not sustainable then there is no reason to keep him there and they should go back to Shattenkirk. Keeping him there is basically just the gambler's fallacy if that is the case.

Maybe I'm misreading things. But when your first post suggests McQuaid could easily do the same thing as Pionk, I'd say you don't think its impressive.

I guess I'm the type that goes with the hot hand. "If it ain't broke don't fix it". I'm sure Shatty will eventually be back on the PP1. But why put him back on if the results haven't been there?

 

[Mac n Gs]

I'm confused what you mean here. Because for Shatty I see he spent 134:11 with Zibby and only 14:01 without him on the PP. from 2017-2019.

Pionk 39:24 with. 9:15 without.

Well, f*** me. NST removed my filter when I opened it in a new tab.

Those were 5v5 numbers I posted

 

[silverfish]

Well, **** me. NST removed my filter when I opened it in a new tab.

Those were 5v5 numbers I posted

Wow fake news

 

[lilphildub]

Well, **** me. NST removed my filter when I opened it in a new tab.

Those were 5v5 numbers I posted

Lol happens

I just need to finally bookmark this page. Love the amount of info and filters. Idk why I always have trouble finding these type of pages and sites. Whenever I try to google them, its like I'm trying to buy someones identity on the DarkWeb

 

[Mac n Gs]

Wow fake news

I should be forum banned.

My point still remains: Mika’s on-ice shooting% with Shatty is at 12% and at 24% with Pionk. The Rangers are more dangerous offensivey with 93-22 than 93-44.

What’s depressing is it shows that the 5v5 trends are gonna regress because they’re not sustainable. C’est la vie.

 

[nyr2k2]

Wow fake news

Legit though, if people are going to come in here and confuse the shit out of the lot of us with your numbers, please get on the same page with each other and maybe give a quick primer. No one is gonna care about Pionk's relCOCK% if we're given different measures and don't even know what they mean. This is why "advanced" stats got it's own thread.

 

[lilphildub]

Legit though, if people are going to come in here and confuse the **** out of the lot of us with your numbers, please get on the same page with each other and maybe give a quick primer. No one is gonna care about Pionk's relCOCK% if we're given different measures and don't even know what they mean. This is why "advanced" stats got it's own thread.

Eh, its a mix of both. @Mac n Gs "elHDCF% for Mika with Shatty:/ Pionk is 8.19/2.02." confused the hell out of me and wish he explained a little bit instead of assuming anyone knows what it means. But at the same time it made me do research and see how it could be useful. The more info the better to me