NCAA Hockey Expansion Thread

[Ridge1982]

Wachler speaks

Former Lindenwood AD Clears Record on His Departure

Former Lindenwood athletic director Brad Wachler spoke to College Hockey News today to clear the air on some issues that were recently reported...

www.collegehockeynews.com

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Notable quotes:

CHN: We spoke last year about how close Lindenwood was to going D-I in men's hockey, and you thought by summer you'd be able to reach the fundraising goals. Then I never heard from you again.

Wachler: The best laid plans. We got hung up on fundraising and weren't able to get where we needed to be. [Lindenwood had set a goal of $5 million.] We didn't change our focus, but we looked at other options, and looked at the overall transition (of all sports to D-I). That started in about August.

CHN: Is it fair to say at all that the school president was more anxious than you were to get hockey started, even without fulfilling the fundraising goal?

Wachler: I think we were on the same page about it. We were having conversations around it for a while, and we both at a certain point said — because we had talked about it over the summer, then again in January — "Hey, what's the plan to fundraise and how are we going to get this thing moving forward." I don't know what happened from there to where we are now over the last week. I wanted to do it as fast as we possibly could. We always had the business case that we established. But I will tell you that when I was still there, I worked on a revised business case to say what options do we have to make it work without the $5 million. I don't think we were on different wavelengths.

CHN: Not saying this in any sort of controversial way, but was the president more willing to go forward without the $5 million than you?

Wachler: I actually brought the idea forward to him. I said we're not going to reach the $5 million, let's take a look at a revised business model. So that was my initiative. And I started doing that a bit more in the summer, then I got going with this overall D-I transition. So we were on the same page. If we could move that forward from day one, I would have have, because I'm a big college hockey guy. I'm looking forward to seeing Lindenwood grow.


Translation: They haven't raised the money, so they're going to go all Leroy Jenkins into real college hockey without adequate funding!

Let's not forget that this school hasn't really supported its Division I women's hockey team beyond letting it exist. Now they're going to add Division I men's ice hockey without the amount of funding they determined would be minimally adequate to ensure the program's short term success. Sounds like a Swiss watch of a plan.

Falling back on "St. Louis is a good hockey market" is another sign that Lindenwood has no idea what they're getting into. St. Louis isn't a good hockey market. It's a good NHL market for the Blues. The Blues suck up the vast majority of the oxygen there. St. Louis U hasn't had hockey for 30 years. The Missouri River Otters started out drawing well and were drawing 2,400 a night seven seasons later. The St. Charles Chill (where's Randall Ritchey?) was an unmitigated disaster.

 

[S E P H]

Notable quotes:

CHN: We spoke last year about how close Lindenwood was to going D-I in men's hockey, and you thought by summer you'd be able to reach the fundraising goals. Then I never heard from you again.

Wachler: The best laid plans. We got hung up on fundraising and weren't able to get where we needed to be. [Lindenwood had set a goal of $5 million.] We didn't change our focus, but we looked at other options, and looked at the overall transition (of all sports to D-I). That started in about August.

CHN: Is it fair to say at all that the school president was more anxious than you were to get hockey started, even without fulfilling the fundraising goal?

Wachler: I think we were on the same page about it. We were having conversations around it for a while, and we both at a certain point said — because we had talked about it over the summer, then again in January — "Hey, what's the plan to fundraise and how are we going to get this thing moving forward." I don't know what happened from there to where we are now over the last week. I wanted to do it as fast as we possibly could. We always had the business case that we established. But I will tell you that when I was still there, I worked on a revised business case to say what options do we have to make it work without the $5 million. I don't think we were on different wavelengths.

CHN: Not saying this in any sort of controversial way, but was the president more willing to go forward without the $5 million than you?

Wachler: I actually brought the idea forward to him. I said we're not going to reach the $5 million, let's take a look at a revised business model. So that was my initiative. And I started doing that a bit more in the summer, then I got going with this overall D-I transition. So we were on the same page. If we could move that forward from day one, I would have have, because I'm a big college hockey guy. I'm looking forward to seeing Lindenwood grow.


Translation: They haven't raised the money, so they're going to go all Leroy Jenkins into real college hockey without adequate funding!

Let's not forget that this school hasn't really supported its Division I women's hockey team beyond letting it exist. Now they're going to add Division I men's ice hockey without the amount of funding they determined would be minimally adequate to ensure the program's short term success. Sounds like a Swiss watch of a plan.

Falling back on "St. Louis is a good hockey market" is another sign that Lindenwood has no idea what they're getting into. St. Louis isn't a good hockey market. It's a good NHL market for the Blues. The Blues suck up the vast majority of the oxygen there. St. Louis U hasn't had hockey for 30 years. The Missouri River Otters started out drawing well and were drawing 2,400 a night seven seasons later. The St. Charles Chill (where's Randall Ritchey?) was an unmitigated disaster.

I agree with your premise, but you cannot deny that the local market has produced a lot of NHL-level players lately and should be able to get some Illinois products as long as UofI do not want to fund a DI team.

 

[Ridge1982]

I agree with your premise, but you cannot deny that the local market has produced a lot of NHL-level players lately and should be able to get some Illinois products as long as UofI do not want to fund a DI team.

At any rate,
Lindenwood is positioned to actually see and talk to substantially more NCAA hopefuls based on their proximity to high level youth and junior hockey. Lindenwood is just 100 miles from the Springfield Jr Blues. And if you're talking about getting kids interested before they go off to junior at all, the St. Louis AAA pipeline has way more future NCAA talent and is stocked with other NHL alums who Zombo has connections with. He has 650 games of NHL experience and is plugged in to one of the stronger NHL alumni groups in the league (a group that is heavily involved in St. Louis youth hockey). Being able to recruit in your own backyard is a major advantage in NCAA sports.

Lindenwood has a massive scouting advantage, better facilities than given credit for, and the coach has more/better connections to go with the credibility of being a former pro. Recruits from St Louis who just spent 2-4 years living away from home to play NAHL/USHL hockey before college very well may value proximity to family over going to another unknown city.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

I agree with your premise, but you cannot deny that the local market has produced a lot of NHL-level players lately and should be able to get some Illinois products as long as UofI do not want to fund a DI team.

It's produced eight active players and 16 all-time. It's not Toronto.

And as I've said before, there are no secrets in scouting. There are no "hidden pools of talent" that are going to supply lesser Division I programs and make them competitive with the top 20 programs. There's no such thing as a massive scouting advantage once you get above the Midget AA level. Lindenwood doesn't have any spectacular reputation or name recognition on a resume, so given a choice between and medium name school and Lindenwood, Lindenwood is going to lose even with kids from the St. Louis area. It's the Merrimack of Greater St. Louis.

Lindenwood does have a decent facility, though - that they lease... better make sure those rent checks clear...

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Satisfied ?

We have had similar tweets from similarly well-credentialed people promising announcements that have never come. Buccigross even promised an imminent announcement for the University of Illinois.

I will believe it when I see it and not a moment before. It is a product of the exposure to promises of collegiate hockey expansion that not only don't appear, but are then silently swept under the rug.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

At any rate,
Lindenwood is positioned to actually see and talk to substantially more NCAA hopefuls based on their proximity to high level youth and junior hockey. Lindenwood is just 100 miles from the Springfield Jr Blues. And if you're talking about getting kids interested before they go off to junior at all, the St. Louis AAA pipeline has way more future NCAA talent and is stocked with other NHL alums who Zombo has connections with. He has 650 games of NHL experience and is plugged in to one of the stronger NHL alumni groups in the league (a group that is heavily involved in St. Louis youth hockey). Being able to recruit in your own backyard is a major advantage in NCAA sports.

Lindenwood has a massive scouting advantage, better facilities than given credit for, and the coach has more/better connections to go with the credibility of being a former pro. Recruits from St Louis who just spent 2-4 years living away from home to play NAHL/USHL hockey before college very well may value proximity to family over going to another unknown city.

Local talent pool, which to my knowledge is only one strong AAA organization in the St. Louis Jr. Blues, is a near complete non-factor in the competitiveness of a program.

Even if it was a major factor, I think you'd have a tough time finding more than 5-6 NCAA D1 programs that don't have a strong minor hockey organization less than 20 miles away as well as a Tier II or above junior team within 100 miles.

Saying "local talent stays local" means little. It doesn't happen very often...

• See LIU: only two NYC area players on their entire roster despite being within an hour drive of no less than 6 *extremely* high level AAA organizations, more than St. Louis, and within 100 miles of 2 NAHL teams, more than St. Louis.
• See AIC: rich recruiting grounds of Massachusetts. More talent than you can shake a stick at. More AAA organizations, prep schools, high level juniors in state let alone within 100 miles than you can count. They are the best team on an annual basis in Atlantic Hockey. Not a single Massachusetts player on the roster.
• See Bentley: same thing as AIC, except 15 minutes West of Boston and in the middle of some of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the county. Only 1 Massachusetts player on the roster
• See Sacred Heart: Fairfield County, huge hockey area, within easy distance of the tri-state area and not a single Connecticut kid and maybe a handful of tri-state area kids
• See Denver: one of the top teams in the country, not a single Colorado kid. I am fairly certain this goes back a few years as well
• See Umass-Amherst: one of the top teams in the country in recent years, only two Mass kids on the team and max only ever had 3-4.

There are others like Canisius (one in state), UConn (two in state), and many others I don't feel like listing. For every Minnesota with a huge Minnesota-based roster, there are 5-6 others where it isn't the case despite sharing the same recruiting grounds.

By far the biggest factors are budget, facility, and staff.

 

[S E P H]

It's produced eight active players and 16 all-time. It's not Toronto.

And as I've said before, there are no secrets in scouting. There are no "hidden pools of talent" that are going to supply lesser Division I programs and make them competitive with the top 20 programs. There's no such thing as a massive scouting advantage once you get above the Midget AA level. Lindenwood doesn't have any spectacular reputation or name recognition on a resume, so given a choice between and medium name school and Lindenwood, Lindenwood is going to lose even with kids from the St. Louis area. It's the Merrimack of Greater St. Louis.

Lindenwood does have a decent facility, though - that they lease... better make sure those rent checks clear...

Merrimack has a decent team though and do get a fair share of solid talent even if they don't turn out to be legit NHL players. I think the hope is them turning into a Midwest Clarkson, but that remains to be seen. The worst is if they become something like Canisius College.

You have to look at the potential though, Rams are gone and that state doesn't have anything except two major sports teams. More people are going to be exposed to hockey at an earlier age than they would have if the Rams were still in the city. Then the surrounding states as well which have a ton of USHL and NAHL teams. People are psychologically driven to stay in locations or surrounding areas to where they were born, it's not like we're talking about Southeastern United States or something which has absolutely zero hockey population except for maybe Florida (even then it's a huge baseball state throughout).

 

[Ridge1982]

So the Chiefs and Royals don't exist ?

and that state doesn't have anything except two major sports teams.

 

[mk80]

The only thing I can add to the overall discussion is to emphasize one thing I know about Lindenwood:

They never fund any project with their own money or ever dip into their endowment. One of the reasons they have no debt as school. So for them to go forward with such a move means they know there is dollars to back it up somewhere, and expect those dollars to get in their bank account quickly after an announcement.

But beyond that:

 

[JMCx4]

... You have to look at the potential though, Rams are gone and that state doesn't have anything except two major sports teams. More people are going to be exposed to hockey at an earlier age than they would have if the Rams were still in the city. Then the surrounding states as well which have a ton of USHL and NAHL teams. People are psychologically driven to stay in locations or surrounding areas to where they were born, it's not like we're talking about Southeastern United States or something which has absolutely zero hockey population except for maybe Florida (even then it's a huge baseball state throughout).

You are, once again, out of your element with opinions on the sports landscape in the U.S. and especially in the St. Louis area. You need to come live here for a few years, then return home with an informed perspective. And P.S. - Missouri has four major sports teams. Wiki it for details.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Merrimack has a decent team though and do get a fair share of solid talent even if they don't turn out to be legit NHL players. I think the hope is them turning into a Midwest Clarkson, but that remains to be seen. The worst is if they become something like Canisius College.

You have to look at the potential though, Rams are gone and that state doesn't have anything except two major sports teams. More people are going to be exposed to hockey at an earlier age than they would have if the Rams were still in the city. Then the surrounding states as well which have a ton of USHL and NAHL teams. People are psychologically driven to stay in locations or surrounding areas to where they were born, it's not like we're talking about Southeastern United States or something which has absolutely zero hockey population except for maybe Florida (even then it's a huge baseball state throughout).

Merrimack is a former Division II school that played up in hockey and then moved to Division I. It's a regional school that draws from its local population. It doesn't have much name recognition beyond the Northeast. It's literally almost identical to Lindenwood in every way, but for the fact that Merrimack has played real college hockey (i.e., not club, the team is part of the athletic department and operates under NCAA rules) since its founding.

Clarkson is a nationally-known engineering school. A degree from Clarkson is orders of magnitude more valuable than a degree from Lindenwood or Merrimack.

How's that scouting for the WHL going?

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Local talent pool, which to my knowledge is only one strong AAA organization in the St. Louis Jr. Blues, is a near complete non-factor in the competitiveness of a program.

Even if it was a major factor, I think you'd have a tough time finding more than 5-6 NCAA D1 programs that don't have a strong minor hockey organization less than 20 miles away as well as a Tier II or above junior team within 100 miles.

Saying "local talent stays local" means little. It doesn't happen very often...

• See LIU: only two NYC area players on their entire roster despite being within an hour drive of no less than 6 *extremely* high level AAA organizations, more than St. Louis, and within 100 miles of 2 NAHL teams, more than St. Louis.
• See AIC: rich recruiting grounds of Massachusetts. More talent than you can shake a stick at. More AAA organizations, prep schools, high level juniors in state let alone within 100 miles than you can count. They are the best team on an annual basis in Atlantic Hockey. Not a single Massachusetts player on the roster.
• See Bentley: same thing as AIC, except 15 minutes West of Boston and in the middle of some of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the county. Only 1 Massachusetts player on the roster
• See Sacred Heart: Fairfield County, huge hockey area, within easy distance of the tri-state area and not a single Connecticut kid and maybe a handful of tri-state area kids
• See Denver: one of the top teams in the country, not a single Colorado kid. I am fairly certain this goes back a few years as well
• See Umass-Amherst: one of the top teams in the country in recent years, only two Mass kids on the team and max only ever had 3-4.

There are others like Canisius (one in state), UConn (two in state), and many others I don't feel like listing. For every Minnesota with a huge Minnesota-based roster, there are 5-6 others where it isn't the case despite sharing the same recruiting grounds.

By far the biggest factors are budget, facility, and staff.

Yup.

The thing that expansionists and club clowns don't understand about recruiting is that Division I recruiting is not about finding talent per se, it's about finding the right talent and arranging for it to arrive on campus at the right time. It's not about finding a kid that can stickhandle, it's about finding a lefthanded defenseman who can make the first pass out of the zone and play on the second PP unit who's got the grades and SAT scores to get into school AND can be on campus two Septembers from now when Johnny Lefthanded D-Man has graduated. It's not "Get the best youth hockey kids from the area and we'll surely be competitive!" If you do that, you surely won't.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Merrimack has a decent team though and do get a fair share of solid talent even if they don't turn out to be legit NHL players. I think the hope is them turning into a Midwest Clarkson, but that remains to be seen. The worst is if they become something like Canisius College.

You have to look at the potential though, Rams are gone and that state doesn't have anything except two major sports teams. More people are going to be exposed to hockey at an earlier age than they would have if the Rams were still in the city. Then the surrounding states as well which have a ton of USHL and NAHL teams. People are psychologically driven to stay in locations or surrounding areas to where they were born, it's not like we're talking about Southeastern United States or something which has absolutely zero hockey population except for maybe Florida (even then it's a huge baseball state throughout).

I am continuously impressed by how little you know about how the United States, and specifically how hockey in the United States, works.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Merrimack has a decent team though and do get a fair share of solid talent even if they don't turn out to be legit NHL players. I think the hope is them turning into a Midwest Clarkson, but that remains to be seen. The worst is if they become something like Canisius College.

You have to look at the potential though, Rams are gone and that state doesn't have anything except two major sports teams. More people are going to be exposed to hockey at an earlier age than they would have if the Rams were still in the city. Then the surrounding states as well which have a ton of USHL and NAHL teams. People are psychologically driven to stay in locations or surrounding areas to where they were born, it's not like we're talking about Southeastern United States or something which has absolutely zero hockey population except for maybe Florida (even then it's a huge baseball state throughout).

Those junior teams are hundreds of miles away. In the United States, that's the same relevancy of a kid in Copenhagen finding hockey because of Austrian influences.

 

[Ridge1982]

You are, once again, out of your element with opinions on the sports landscape in the U.S. and especially in the St. Louis area. You need to come live here for a few years, then return home with an informed perspective. And P.S. - Missouri has four major sports teams. Wiki it for details.

Soon to be five.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Soon to be five.

MLS is major in name only.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Satisfied ?

No announcement on the 21st... was Andy Strickland wrong again?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Satisfied ?

Do you know see what we meant by "just because Andy Strickland says it on Twitter doesn't mean it is true because it has happened before with him" or is this just an exercise in futility?

 

[S E P H]

No announcement on the 21st... was Andy Strickland wrong again?

Maybe it was to alumni? This school seems like a second-rate university in regards to publication and organisation, especially considering the CHN interview with Wachler pretty much confirms the team.

As I said though, Strickland sucks with stuff that isn't Blues-related news.

 

[Ridge1982]

Patience

Men’s ice hockey going to Division I level

Updated on March 18 at 10:14 p.m. with confirmation from President John R. Porter. Lindenwood’s men’s ice hockey team is moving to the Division I level, President John R. Porter confirmed in an email Friday. Bally Sports Reporter Andy Strickland first reported that the move would be happening...

lindenlink.com

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Patience

Men’s ice hockey going to Division I level

Updated on March 18 at 10:14 p.m. with confirmation from President John R. Porter. Lindenwood’s men’s ice hockey team is moving to the Division I level, President John R. Porter confirmed in an email Friday. Bally Sports Reporter Andy Strickland first reported that the move would be happening...

lindenlink.com

That's still not an announcement. The school president may have confirmed the plan in an email, but until they're at a podium announcing a Division I program for next year, they aren't having a Division I hockey program next year - there's merely a report, confirmed by the school president, that they're planning to have a Division I hockey program. No time frame is given.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Do you know see what we meant by "just because Andy Strickland says it on Twitter doesn't mean it is true because it has happened before with him" or is this just an exercise in futility?

To be fair, anyone who trusts anything written or said by anyone who was ever employed by Dwayne Keith "Eklund" Klessel (with a few exceptions) is bound to end up being disappointed. He's the biggest fraud in sports.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Patience

Men’s ice hockey going to Division I level

Updated on March 18 at 10:14 p.m. with confirmation from President John R. Porter. Lindenwood’s men’s ice hockey team is moving to the Division I level, President John R. Porter confirmed in an email Friday. Bally Sports Reporter Andy Strickland first reported that the move would be happening...

lindenlink.com

You don't the know difference between a news release that quotes a tweet that we previously referenced and an actual announcement?

The deadline they and you claimed an announcement would be given has come and passed. Lindenwood has done this before.

Like Eddie said, until they are up there on that stage with all the bigwigs, it doesn't mean anything. Especially considering they've done this before.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

You don't the know difference between a news release that quotes a tweet that we previously referenced and an actual announcement?

The deadline they and you claimed an announcement would be given has come and passed. Lindenwood has done this before.

Like Eddie said, until they are up there on that stage with all the bigwigs, it doesn't mean anything. Especially considering they've done this before.

Not just Lindenwood, but other club programs too.

Penn State's club team, for well over a decade, was touting "arena plans" which probably didn't exist. It was always, "next season in Division I!" It was damn near 15 years before it finally happened, and again, took an $88 million dollar donation.