Nazem Kadri - Part 3

[theIceWookie]

Last year Kadri was a +15 and the best forward +/- and for that he earned Carlyle's praise.

This year he is a -9 and one of the worst Leaf forwards defensively. Carlyle has called out Kadri this year that he needs to be better through criticism.

Kadri was better both offensively and defensively last year.

If the team is getting better then why is Kadri getting worse, what has changed ?

Shocker, a 23 year old with 155 NHL games under his belt ISN'T perfectly molded and still needs to work on his defense and overall consistency.

 

[Ace88*]

You're not manipulating statistics, you're creating your own narrative (excuse) to explain away the statistics that exist for all to see.

A +15 means Kadri was on the ice with his line-mates for 15 more goals for than against at even strength, whereas a -9 means 9 more goals against then goals for.. That is what plus/minus statistics demonstrate.

Kadri is trending down defensively and offensively from last year to this year and that also parallels the Leafs as they to are scoring less and giving up more goals against then they did last year resulting in less ROW.

Kadri is one of the players that needs to be better, because he has proven in the past what he is capable of.

Mmmm im so happy you pointed that out, because that's precisely what you and Ulf have been doing in this thread--specifically, when i said that Kadri needs to be producing more and you two came back with "well you must hate winning then because Canada played defensively."

And +/- is silly to use in this context. Let's say that the McClement line gets hemmed in their own zone for the whole shift. They are gassed as hell when they finally get it out, and head to the bench for a change. During that, the puck is turned over by someone and the opposing team picks it up and goes on a rush. By the time Kadri steps on the ice and skates up to speed, the puck is in the net and he gets a big fat -1. Boy that was really poor defending by Kadri, wasn't it?

Conversely, he may do all the leg work in obtaining the puck, holding onto it while two defenders are on his back trying to get it off him. He's tired, so he dishes it and heads to the bench. By the time his feet leave the ice, the Leafs score and he doesn't get a +1 even though he created the play that led to the goal. Maybe he gets the assist, but not the +1.

Do you see now why +/- is so volatile and a terrible stat to judge defensive acumen in most contexts?

 

[TenYearsGone93]

Last year Kadri was a +15 and the best forward +/- and for that he earned Carlyle's praise.

This year he is a -9 and one of the worst Leaf forwards defensively. Carlyle has called out Kadri this year that he needs to be better through criticism.

Kadri was better both offensively and defensively last year.

If the team is getting better then why is Kadri getting worse, what has changed ?

Take Kadri and his third highest point total from the team and where are they? He's played four less games than JVR and is almost matching him in PPG. There would be zero secondary scoring without Kadri. Lupul is a complete sieve. Nothing without Kessel.

 

[Diatomic]

Take Kadri and his third highest point total from the team and where are they? He's played four less games than JVR and is almost matching him in PPG. There would be zero secondary scoring without Kadri. Lupul is a complete sieve. Nothing without Kessel.

Pretty much. Last year the main reason we made the playoffs was because we were getting Near PPG production from a player on the 2nd line (Excluding lupul and his 15 games of excellence)

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Again, the poor +/- can be attributed to Kadri facing tougher competition and transitioning from 3rd line minutes to Top 6 minutes. It's not easy and expecting him to make the transition flawlessly is unfair to him.

And surprise, he's been a +4 since the beginning of our 6 game win streak and subsequent hot run. How about that eh? Kadri played better and the results for the team were great. It's not like he was scoring and we were losing. His offense was helping us win.

 

[Mess]

Shocker, a 23 year old with 155 NHL games under his belt ISN'T perfectly molded and still needs to work on his defense and overall consistency.

Isn't that the same as saying Kadri lacks consistency and needs to get or play better defensively.

If so, then it appears we're on the same page.

Some are saying Kadri is doing great and everything is fine, when in fact the Leafs are currently dealing with his maturation and development as player. Kads ups and downs reflected in his and the teams stats.

 

[mikebel111*]

Mess it looks like u said to demote kadri when bolland is back?
Why?
Kadri has been great for like a month now. But yeah we should demote him. Its the best solution lol.

And. RC said in the post game interview last season against TB when kadri had 3 assists and went up against stamkos line. Find it cause i am not wasting my time. I know some will still ignore it

 

[Diatomic]

Mess it looks like u said to demote kadri when bolland is back?
Why?
Kadri has been great for like a month now. But yeah we should demote him. Its the best solution lol.

And. RC said in the post game interview last season against TB when kadri had 3 assists and went up against stamkos line. Find it cause i am not wasting my time. I know some will still ignore it

Its because Bozak and Bolland are a championship top 6 center duo. So many teams have won the cup with two #3C's playing top 6 roles its unbelievable

 

[theIceWookie]

Its because Bozak and Bolland are a championship top 6 center duo. So many teams have won the cup with two #3C's playing top 6 roles its unbelievable

Yeah and so what? Bolland wasn't a championship center until he actually won. Neither was Toews.

It's such an inane idea that a young player should be demoted because he isn't a championship center. Let him develop in the only way he can. By growing and being placed in a situation to grow. And demoting Kadri after the games he's played in 2014 is absolutely the wrong way to do that.

 

[Ace88*]

People still calling Bozak a 3C. Lol.

 

[King85Kong]

Without Kadri, we would be a one line team.
I can't take anyone seriously who relies on +/- to justify their position. It has been shown to be a flawed stat, and should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[mikebel111*]

Without Kadri, we would be a one line team.
I can't take anyone seriously who relies on +/- to justify their position. It has been shown to be a flawed stat, and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Wrong. Its kadri's fault that lupul isnt producing
Lupul carries that line

 

[King85Kong]

Wrong. Its kadri's fault that lupul isnt producing
Lupul carries that line

Oh ya, my mistake, you're right. Why gee wheez, Kadri is sure a lucky guy to have Lupul there to carry him.

 

[Mess]

Mess it looks like u said to demote kadri when bolland is back?
Why?
Kadri has been great for like a month now. But yeah we should demote him. Its the best solution lol.

And. RC said in the post game interview last season against TB when kadri had 3 assists and went up against stamkos line. Find it cause i am not wasting my time. I know some will still ignore it

2012-13 .. 48 games 18-26-44 points & +15
2013-14 ...56 games 15-26-41 points & -9

No need to find proof of the RC quote.. I can see why Carlyle would compliment Kadri last year because he was strong 2-way both offensively and defensively, as its right there in his stats.

What about this year?

Maple Leafs: Kadri shrugs off coach’s criticism:
Published on Mon Dec 30 2013

Nazem Kadri was a bit of the whipping boy for his coach.

With little prompting, Randy Carlyle sent a none-too-subtle message to Kadri that he might very well find himself slip-sliding all the way down to the third troika — or worse — if improvement isn’t demonstrated forthwith.

“I’ve been dealing with that since day one, so it’s nothing new to me,” Kadri shrugged following Monday’s practice, though clearly startled at the news delivered to his locker by reporters. “It hasn’t really been brought to my attention until you said something about it.”

He should consider himself warned.

This is what Carlyle had to say about the matter, with a bit of told-you-so thrown in for the Kadri devotees out there: “We were taken to task about why we were playing him on the third line last year because he had all these points. If you look statistically this year, he’s not far off of what he had the same time last year in the same number of games.”

“We have to get Kadri, Mason and Lupul going. The level of their game has got a lot of levels to improve on. In my mind, they’re playing a fraction of where they can be. They should be on a line that provides the second tier of offence and should challenge the first line.”

Full story: http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs...adri_shrugs_off_coachs_criticism_dimanno.html

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Without Kadri, we would be a one line team.
I can't take anyone seriously who relies on +/- to justify their position. It has been shown to be a flawed stat, and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Then why did you mention it to me last month in an argument you made against Bozak?

Because it fit your argument then...

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Lmfao, I love your argument on this matter! In this thread you keep tagging on Kadri for needing to be better defensively and put more emphasis on his team game, yet in the Guahtier thread you're doing nothing but *****ing and moaning about his lack of offense, something that he's sacrificing for his team to be better defensively. Not even mentioning that he's also one of the best FO guys in the Q something else that you like to boast about being a key asset for a player. So Interactif which is it? Make up your mind cause you're all over the place!

I don't see the correlation between Kadri and Gauthier at all here. This is a Kadri thread not a Gauthier one, he could be Philippe Paradis 2.0 for all I know.

 

[King85Kong]

Then why did you mention it to me last month in an argument you made against Bozak?

Because it fit your argument then...

Was showing you how flawed +/- is.
This will be the last message I respond to of yours, as per mods request.

 

[mikebel111*]

2012-13 .. 48 games 18-26-44 points & +15
2013-14 ...56 games 15-26-41 points & -9

No need to find proof of the RC quote.. I can see why Carlyle would compliment Kadri last year because he was strong 2-way both offensively and defensively, as its right there in his stats.

What about this year?

His rating got low when he was on first line. If he was on 2nd, his rating would be better.
However that still doesnt answer my question. RC said he has always been good on D. If he was terrible. Why would he say that?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

His rating got low when he was on first line. If he was on 2nd, his rating would be better.
However that still doesnt answer my question. RC said he has always been good on D. If he was terrible. Why would he say that?

I would like to see that quote of RC saying Kadri was always good defensively.

Last I read from Carlyle, he said injuries to Bozak and Bolland forced him to play players out of their comfort area, obviously referring to Kadri as the player playing out of his comfort level.

Kadri was better defensively last season, I give a lot of credit to Eakins for this. This year due to being out of his comfort level, he has been less responsible defensively. The -9 between he and Lupul's -10 do not lie. Both have been producers, but producers with defensive lapses.

I know many posters here are just happy if players produce offensively for their stats lines, and then there are some of us that want to see more production on the defensive side. I would not hold it against Kadri if he had 10 less points by the end of the season and ended up a + player.

I think most would agree if Kadri was a 55 point center and a +, he would be a great asset to this team. Rather than a 65 point center and a -10.

 

[ECanuck]

One thing we know about Kadri is that he has played without the support of Kessel and JVR for most of the season. He also, has had to play without the support of Bozak and Bolland through the toughest schedule of the year.

 

[Trainspotter]

Kadri was better defensively last season,

No, he was playing easier minutes.

 

[leafstilldeath*]

No, he was playing easier minutes.

Precisely!

This year he has played tougher mins. Second, Kadri is a game breaker, the only game breaker on Leafs after Kessel.

Cannot beleive people are using +/- to bring the kid down. What is Bozo's +/- career wise? Or for that matter Kessel.



Can't believe this kid is getting called out. absolute

 

[Durrr]

Precisely!

This year he has played tougher mins. Second, Kadri is a game breaker, the only game breaker on Leafs after Kessel.

Cannot beleive people are using +/- to bring the kid down. What is Bozo's +/- career wise? Or for that matter Kessel.



Can't believe this kid is getting called out. absolute

+/- is only a flawed stat until people need it to try and win an argument lol. I don't even understand all the BS from some posters here, the kid has slumped a bit offense wise this year as a result of harder minutes, but has still made strides forward in his overall game. All these people comparing Bozak to Kadri right now are just starting drama for no reason. When Kadri starts to contend for 1st line minutes in the future, then this conversation becomes relevant but right now on two different lines, who cares?

Also;

Lupul, Raymond <<<< Kessel JVR (defensively, and by a huge margin)

 

[mikebel111*]

I would like to see that quote of RC saying Kadri was always good defensively.

Last I read from Carlyle, he said injuries to Bozak and Bolland forced him to play players out of their comfort area, obviously referring to Kadri as the player playing out of his comfort level.

Kadri was better defensively last season, I give a lot of credit to Eakins for this. This year due to being out of his comfort level, he has been less responsible defensively. The -9 between he and Lupul's -10 do not lie. Both have been producers, but producers with defensive lapses.

I know many posters here are just happy if players produce offensively for their stats lines, and then there are some of us that want to see more production on the defensive side. I would not hold it against Kadri if he had 10 less points by the end of the season and ended up a + player.

I think most would agree if Kadri was a 55 point center and a +, he would be a great asset to this team. Rather than a 65 point center and a -10.

I already told you when he said it

Against TB at ACC last season. Going up against stamkos line. Where he had 3 assists
The game was on march 20th 2013

 

[leafstilldeath*]

+/- is only a flawed stat until people need it to try and win an argument lol. I don't even understand all the BS from some posters here, the kid has slumped a bit offense wise this year as a result of harder minutes, but has still made strides forward in his overall game. All these people comparing Bozak to Kadri right now are just starting drama for no reason. When Kadri starts to contend for 1st line minutes in the future, then this conversation becomes relevant but right now on two different lines, who cares?

Also;

Lupul, Raymond <<<< Kessel JVR (defensively, and by a huge margin)

Kessel has evolved as a 200 foot player. The reason the 1st line is doing good is because both JVR and Kessel are playing miles better defensively than they used to play. Bozak being the defensive conscience on that line is now nothing but old wives tale.

Bozak has been our 1C by default not by choice. If we had Malkin, Getzlaf, Crosby, Backstrom, E. Stall etc... with Kadri in the line up do you really think Bozak cracks the top 6? Nope.

Bozak has played well this year I will give him that. He has finished on chances this year more than in the past where he would literally suck the life out of offence.

Kadri>>>Bozak AINEC.

Getting back to the original topic. People blaming Kadri is outright outrageous and worthy