Nazem Kadri - Part 3

[Guy Boucher]

Canada's talent was so far and away better than any other team's that it's ridiculous to use them as an example of anything.

That team should have won no matter what tactics it decided to use.

Listen buddy. Team is way now important that individual players. That's why we have to get rid of all our talent and replace them with David Clarkson's. That's exactly how great teams like Chicago, Boston, and Pittsburgh are built. No talent, just a 'team'.

 

[Duke Silver]

commit to team goals forsaking individual goals for the betterment of the team

what a load of crap. Honestly, what are you even saying? What is it you want Kadri to do? If he became a defensive stalwart overnight at the expense of his offense, he'd get torn a new one and people JUST LIKE YOU and Ulf and Mess would be clamouring that he needs to be better offensively, 50 points isn't enough, needs to get back to being a creative player, etc. It's hilarious. You three watched the Olympics and now it's like you're actually expecting that standard of play to be imposed on the Leafs now and that they need to play that style to win.

News flash, that was on big ice in a best-on-best tournament. It's wildly, vastly different from NHL play. You'll see the leafs buckle down in the playoffs and probably even down the stretch a bit, but the way you guys talk you'd rather have a bunch of 35-40 point defensive players who can barely scrape together 2 goals a game. Like reeeeeelax.

Yeah, all he has to do is play like a Selke candidate and put up close to a point-per-game. Simple enough.

 

[Durrr]

Carlyle has always said, Kadri is a young player, and with young players they need to learn. If you can provide the quote you are referring to, then maybe I can give some context to it. But it is clear Kadri is the weakest defensive Center on the team, behind Mcclement, Bozak, and Bolland. Any suggestion he is better is ludicrous.

SO he provides better offensive abilities, lots of players are defensive minded players in this league, and only a handful of them can balance being a complete offensive threat AND defensive lock. I keep seeing you guys bring up team Canada, news flash, half of the players on that team are not better then these players defensively, they just bought into a defensive system or risked losing all ice time.

Jeff Carter, Duchene, Kunitz, Nash, Perry, Sharp, and Benn could all be arguably worse defensively then the 3 players you posted. Doesn't really make them inferior lol, especially when you use Jay Maclement as an example.

 

[Durrr]

Listen buddy. Team is way now important that individual players. That's why we have to get rid of all our talent and replace them with David Clarkson's. That's exactly how great teams like Chicago, Boston, and Pittsburgh are built. No talent, just a 'team'.

I'm guna hope this is sarcasm

 

[Ace88*]

I don't care for the Edmonton blueprint of one way skilled players that are only interested in individual points that look good on paper. Team goals are more important to me, I would happily see lower points totals if this meant we kept the puck out of the net, and in turn win more games, rather than pile on points and lose 7-6 games. This isn't the Oilers dynasty era. Different strokes for different folks.

When was the last time the Leafs lost 7-6? Or 6-5? Or even 5-4? How many times has that happened in the last two years? Three years even? Maaaaaaybe 7 or 8 times out of a couple hundred games?

Listen man. NOBODY cares for the Edmonton blueprint. Nobody is also saying to follow the edmonton blueprint. You keep talking about team goals this and team goals that are more important than individual goals this or individual goals that. What the **** exactly are you speaking of? If Kadri at the beginning of the year sets a goal for himself to reach, let's say, 60 points on the season, you're seriously going to sit there and pompously criticize him for it? You do know that every individual has goals for themselves and they all share the common goal of winning the cup, right? They are not mutually exclusively items.

Like at work, do you just not ever want a promotion or a raise? You're obviously more concerned with the company's bottom line far more than your own career goals, amirite? Because team goals are more important than individual goals, so you must not ever want a raise or promotion or new job.

 

[LeafOfBread]

Listen buddy. Team is way now important that individual players. That's why we have to get rid of all our talent and replace them with David Clarkson's. That's exactly how great teams like Chicago, Boston, and Pittsburgh are built. No talent, just a 'team'.

Well played I think it's hilarious how it's mainly only Kadri threads where I see the whole "team>player" response.

I don't get it, nobody is saying Kadri is above the team, so why do people go out of their way to regurgitate the same thing, over and over again? I swear I've seen ULF say the same thing like a dozen times in Kadri related discussion threads.

It really makes no sense why we can't just appreciate having a young, talented player.

 

[ULF_55]

Well played I think it's hilarious how it's mainly only Kadri threads where I see the whole "team>player" response.

I don't get it, nobody is saying Kadri is above the team, so why do people go out of their way to regurgitate the same thing, over and over again? I swear I've seen ULF say the same thing like a dozen times in Kadri related discussion threads.

It really makes no sense why we can't just appreciate having a young, talented player.

Is there any reason Kadri should be placed above the team?

It was Kessel's fault, no van Riemsdyk's fault, no he doesn't have to get better defensively that's not his job. Who else gets a free pass like this?

 

[gabeliscious]

Lupul and Kadri comprise 2/3rds of Leafs 2nd line, created to generate offense.

However Lupul -10 +/- and Kadri -9 +/- are the #1 and #2 worst forwards on the team at ES as they give up more goals against then they score.

This does not put their team in a position to win, despite how many points they produce.

Last year Kadri put up more points in less games and was a +15 which was #1 best forward on the team +/- at ES.

Kadri went from being the best defensively to one of the worst and what has changed?

I suggest now that he is playing in the top 6 regularly he believes scoring is more important then defending. Team Canada taught the entire World the opposite is true!!

there has been more injuries this season then in the past. while it is not an excuse there is something to be said for steady line mates and continuity.

lupul + kadri + kulemin was the line most of last season when they were doing well.

for most of this season it has been lupul + kadri + either clarkson or raymond. im not trying to knock clarkson or raymond or use them as the reason why lupul and kadri have a poor +/- this season but kulemin is a strong defensive forward. he does help on that line.

i also dont think that +/- is he best stat. it doesnt tell the whole picture. fraser was like + 20 last season. the stat gives an indication of how many times a player is on the ice when gf/ga but it doesnt take into account other things such as points received on the pp. kadri has 13 pp points and lupul has 10.

 

[Diatomic]

Is there any reason Kadri should be placed above the team?

It was Kessel's fault, no van Riemsdyk's fault, no he doesn't have to get better defensively that's not his job. Who else gets a free pass like this?

The clear consensus amongst leafs fans is that it was Kadri's fault that the line did so bad, people like me were just pointing out that Kadri was equally as bad as phil and jvr when they played together, but if you want to direct the blame to one specific player be my guest.

 

[Diatomic]

When was the last time the Leafs lost 7-6? Or 6-5? Or even 5-4? How many times has that happened in the last two years? Three years even? Maaaaaaybe 7 or 8 times out of a couple hundred games?

Listen man. NOBODY cares for the Edmonton blueprint. Nobody is also saying to follow the edmonton blueprint. You keep talking about team goals this and team goals that are more important than individual goals this or individual goals that. What the **** exactly are you speaking of? If Kadri at the beginning of the year sets a goal for himself to reach, let's say, 60 points on the season, you're seriously going to sit there and pompously criticize him for it? You do know that every individual has goals for themselves and they all share the common goal of winning the cup, right? They are not mutually exclusively items.

Like at work, do you just not ever want a promotion or a raise? You're obviously more concerned with the company's bottom line far more than your own career goals, amirite? Because team goals are more important than individual goals, so you must not ever want a raise or promotion or new job.

Kadri is on the same path as Phil right now, just because they rack up points and don't play on the PK or defensive scenarios suddenly their individual players or selfish or horrible defensively. People with those mindsets tried running phil out of town too, thankfully they failed.

 

[LeafOfBread]

Is there any reason Kadri should be placed above the team?

It was Kessel's fault, no van Riemsdyk's fault, no he doesn't have to get better defensively that's not his job. Who else gets a free pass like this?

Nobody is placing him above the team. That's what you don't understand. People like you are the reason why fans here have a bad reputation, because you guys create controversies out of nothing. You keep saying things that aren't true.

Free pass? FREE PASS? Are you ****ing kidding me ULF? Do you even try anymore?

You know damn right Kadri has never gotten a free pass, from the day he was drafted. Everyone wanted MPS/Cowen if Brayden Schenn couldn't be had. Then people fabricate stories about his attitude issues and supposed 'issues' with coaches, yet Deboer, Hunter and Carlyle have all had positive things to say about him. Then at the World Juniors, he gets blamed for the U.S. OT goal, even though it was Pietrangelo who pinched up and chased after the puck in the offensive zone. Then Kadri doesn't tear it up at his second training camp, and he takes more heat from fans and media, including a ridiculous picture of him with a pacifier in his mouth on the Toronto Sun front page.

After playing very well in the AHL, he gets called up and does decently, only for Ronnie Wilson to throw him under the bus and say he has nasty habits even though he scored 2 assists and was one of the best forwards all game. Later on he gets yo-yo'd between the AHL and NHL, and is forced to play the wing even though he's clearly better at centre. The following training camp, he plays relatively well, but gets injured partway through, while everyone is gushing over Matt Frattin and saying how Frattin is apparently miles better than Kadri, with even Ronnie boy picking favourites. Kadri also adds mass like everyone wanted, but surprise surprise, his mobility is now hindered and he takes heat for that too of course. Finally, Rotten Ronnie is eventually fired, and Carlyle comes in and shows confidence in Kadri.

Oh and here comes the best part, Kadri works out with Roberts for the off-season, is noticeably stronger, leaner and faster, yet he's thrown under the bus for supposedly being fat and out of shape, which couldn't be further from the truth when his body fat had actually decreased from the prior year. After a slow start in the AHL, he tears it up and looks much faster and stronger on the ice, and it's clear that Roberts' training paid off. Of course, we all know what happened once the NHL season finally started again, and how he tore it up. But even then, he has detractors who say complain about him going cold at the end of the season and not dominating the playoffs, despite it being his first time actually sticking with the team for more than a few games.

And now this year, his first full season, he goes through a slump like any young player does yet gets blasted again and is subject to constant trade rumours from Darren Dreger, meanwhile linemate Joffrey Lupul is the one who ACTUALLY gets a free pass. And look, Kadri is producing now meanwhile Lupul is still not playing that well. Not to mention how Mason Raymond totally destroyed that line when he was on it.

As for the Kessel/JVR stuff, nobody said it was their 'fault'. A few people have criticized effort level, and to be honest the entire team minus the goalies and maybe Phaneuf were pretty damn underwhelming in that stretch during November and early December. Also, it's clear that Kadri simply doesn't have chemistry with both JVR and Kessel on his line. Kessel's stats are actually better with Kadri as his centre than anyone else, but it's a small sample size so I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock into it. However, JVR's production decreases. Watching the games, it was pretty damn obvious why. Kadri is the best possession player on the team, and he needs the puck on his stick...then you have Kessel who also needs the puck. When the two of them are together, JVR gets completely neutralized in the process, which is exactly what happened. Bozak fits better because he peels back and lets Kessel carry the puck and transition with JVR.

So yeah, please don't ever say 'free pass' ever again, it just shows that this fanbase really has no idea what the hell they are talking about. Any other team except maybe Montreal would be glad to have a 23 year old talented centre who has the 3rd highest PPG from his draft class only behind studs like Tavares and Duchene.

 

[King85Kong]

Ya let's knock on our only center that can carry a line and create consistent offense through a strong physical possession game. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Ace88*]

Nobody is placing him above the team. That's what you don't understand. People like you are the reason why fans here have a bad reputation, because you guys create controversies out of nothing. You keep saying things that aren't true.

Free pass? FREE PASS? Are you ****ing kidding me ULF? Do you even try anymore?

You know damn right Kadri has never gotten a free pass, from the day he was drafted. Everyone wanted MPS/Cowen if Brayden Schenn couldn't be had. Then people fabricate stories about his attitude issues and supposed 'issues' with coaches, yet Deboer, Hunter and Carlyle have all had positive things to say about him. Then at the World Juniors, he gets blamed for the U.S. OT goal, even though it was Pietrangelo who pinched up and chased after the puck in the offensive zone. Then Kadri doesn't tear it up at training camp, and he takes more heat from fans and media, including a ridiculous picture of him with a pacifier in his mouth on the Toronto Sun front page.

After playing very well in the AHL, he gets called up and does decently, only for Ronnie Wilson to throw him under the bus and say he has nasty habits even though he scored 2 assists and was one of the best forwards all game. Later on he gets yo-yo'd between the AHL and NHL, and is forced to play the wing even though he's clearly better at centre. The following training camp, he plays relatively well, but gets injured partway through, while everyone is gushing over Matt Frattin and saying how Frattin is apparently miles better than Kadri, with even Ronnie boy picking favourites. Kadri also adds mass like everyone wanted, but surprise surprise, his mobility is now hindered and he takes heat for that too of course. Finally, Rotten Ronnie is eventually fired, and Carlyle comes in and shows confidence in Kadri.

Oh and here comes the best part, Kadri works out with Roberts for the off-season, is noticeably stronger, leaner and faster, yet he's thrown under the bus for supposedly being fat and out of shape, which couldn't be further from the truth when his body fat had actually decreased from the prior year. After a slow start in the AHL, he tears it up and looks much faster and stronger on the ice, and it's clear that Roberts' training paid off. Of course, we all know what happened once the NHL season finally started again, and how he tore it up. But even then, he has detractors who say complain about him going cold at the end of the season and not dominating the playoffs, despite it being his first time actually sticking with the team for more than a few games.

And now this year, his first full season, he goes through a slump like any young player does yet gets blasted again and is subject to constant trade rumours from Darren Dreger, meanwhile linemate Joffrey Lupul is the one who ACTUALLY gets a free pass. And look, Kadri is producing now meanwhile Lupul is still not playing that well. Not to mention how Mason Raymond totally destroyed that line when he was on it.

As for the Kessel/JVR stuff, nobody said it was their 'fault'. A few people have criticized effort level, and to be honest the entire team minus the goalies and maybe Phaneuf were pretty damn underwhelming in that stretch during November and early December. Also, it's clear that Kadri simply doesn't have chemistry with both JVR and Kessel on his line. Kessel's stats are actually better with Kadri as his centre than anyone else, but it's a small sample size so I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock into it. However, JVR's production decreases. Watching the games, it was pretty damn obvious why. Kadri is the best possession player on the team, and he needs the puck on his stick...then you have Kessel who also needs the puck. When the two of them are together, JVR gets completely neutralized in the process, which is exactly what happened. Bozak fits better because he peels back and lets Kessel carry the puck and transition with JVR.

So yeah, please don't ever say 'free pass' ever again, it just shows that this fanbase really has no idea what the hell they are talking about. Any other team except maybe Montreal would be glad to have a 23 year old talented centre who has the 3rd highest PPG from his draft class only behind studs like Tavares and Duchene.

It's amazing to me some of the things i read on these boards at times. I just don't get where people get this stuff from.

 

[Mess]

Hey interactif. If kadri is not good on D, than why did RC say he is good on D?
Of course a SC winning coach is making things up!.

Last year Kadri was a +15 and the best forward +/- and for that he earned Carlyle's praise.

This year he is a -9 and one of the worst Leaf forwards defensively. Carlyle has called out Kadri this year that he needs to be better through criticism.

Kadri was better both offensively and defensively last year.

If the team is getting better then why is Kadri getting worse, what has changed ?

 

[LeafOfBread]

Last year Kadri was a +15 and the best forward +/- and for that he earned Carlyle's praise.

This year he is a -9 and one of the worst Leaf forwards defensively. Carlyle has called out Kadri this year that he needs to be better through criticism.

Kadri was better both offensively and defensively last year.

If the team is getting better then why is Kadri getting worse, what has changed ?

Except the team got worse when Kadri was struggling and now that he's hot again they're playing well.

Don't fabricate things.

 

[TootooTrain]

Last year Kadri was a +15 and the best forward +/- and for that he earned Carlyle's praise.

This year he is a -9 and one of the worst Leaf forwards defensively. Carlyle has called out Kadri this year that he needs to be better through criticism.

Kadri was better both offensively and defensively last year.

If the team is getting better then why is Kadri getting worse, what has changed ?

First of all +/- doesn't equal getting worse. He played against much easier competition last year which would explain the difference to a certain extent. He's on pace for roughly 60pts. I don't see how he's fallen off to the degree you think. Even defensively.

 

[LeafOfBread]

First of all +/- doesn't equal getting worse. He played against much easier competition last year which would explain the difference to a certain extent. He's on pace for roughly 60pts. I don't see how he's fallen off to the degree you think. Even defensively.

Not to mention the team overall is worse defensively than last year. The goals against per game has risen quite a bit. Obviously, part of the reason is PK, but even at 5 on 5 the team has been much less steady defensively than they were last year, and we've received essentially the same calibre of goaltending. Now that they've solidified that a bit they're playing much better.

 

[I Believe]

He's 23, 3rd on the team in points and he's the best player on our 2nd line. On pace for 60 points over 82 games.

He's playing a bit worse then last year, but not nearly bad enough to consider trading him. That would incredibly an incredibly stupid move.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Nazem is a Canadian through and through that has participated for Team Canada on the world stage, he probably watched 2 guys from his draft class in Duchene and Tavares, commit to team goals forsaking individual goals for the betterment for the team. We as Leafs fans hope Kadri keeps learning, if he can he will be a better player for the team.

Lmfao, I love your argument on this matter! In this thread you keep tagging on Kadri for needing to be better defensively and put more emphasis on his team game, yet in the Guahtier thread you're doing nothing but *****ing and moaning about his lack of offense, something that he's sacrificing for his team to be better defensively. Not even mentioning that he's also one of the best FO guys in the Q something else that you like to boast about being a key asset for a player. So Interactif which is it? Make up your mind cause you're all over the place!

 

[Mess]

First of all +/- doesn't equal getting worse. He played against much easier competition last year which would explain the difference to a certain extent. He's on pace for for roughly 60pts. I don't see how he's fallen off to the degree you think.

Defensively

When a player goes from +15 to -9 over the course of one year it means its a -24 goal differential while he is on the ice at ES. That is significantly worse when the opposition is outscoring your line when they're out there. More pucks are going into your own net then you're putting in the oppositions net.

However I agree with you in that as a 3rd liner last season facing off against equal of lesser competition he was successful. This year as a top 6 player he is getting eaten alive defensively because of the opposition level of talent.

Offensively

Last year Kadri averaged 16:03 TOI/g and this year 17:39 TOI/g = +1.36 extra TOI/g

2012-13 .. 48 games 18-26-44 points = 75 point pace over 82 games
verses
2013-14 ...56 games 15-26-41 points = 60 point pace over 82 games

More ice time with better line-mates = less production.


My solution would be when Bolland returns to full speed, put Kadri back into a position where both the team and himself can be better under the premise of Team before Player.

 

[The Blue Devil]

When was the last time the Leafs lost 7-6? Or 6-5? Or even 5-4? How many times has that happened in the last two years? Three years even? Maaaaaaybe 7 or 8 times out of a couple hundred games?

Listen man. NOBODY cares for the Edmonton blueprint. Nobody is also saying to follow the edmonton blueprint. You keep talking about team goals this and team goals that are more important than individual goals this or individual goals that. What the **** exactly are you speaking of? If Kadri at the beginning of the year sets a goal for himself to reach, let's say, 60 points on the season, you're seriously going to sit there and pompously criticize him for it? You do know that every individual has goals for themselves and they all share the common goal of winning the cup, right? They are not mutually exclusively items.

Like at work, do you just not ever want a promotion or a raise? You're obviously more concerned with the company's bottom line far more than your own career goals, amirite? Because team goals are more important than individual goals, so you must not ever want a raise or promotion or new job.

Why would anyone want a new job when they're clearly the God of the hockey universe?

 

[Ace88*]

Defensively

When a player goes from +15 to -9 over the course of one year it means its a -24 goal differential while he is on the ice at ES. That is significantly worse when the opposition is outscoring your line when they're out there. More pucks are going into your own net then you're putting in the oppositions net.

However I agree with you in that as a 3rd liner last season facing off against equal of lesser competition he was successful. This year as a top 6 player he is getting eaten alive defensively because of the opposition level of talent.

Offensively

Last year Kadri averaged 16:03 TOI/g and this year 17:39 TOI/g = +1.36 extra TOI/g

2012-13 .. 48 games 18-26-44 points = 75 point pace over 82 games
verses
2013-14 ...56 games 15-26-41 points = 60 point pace over 82 games

More ice time with better line-mates = less production.

What better linemates? You mean the ones he played with for less than 10 games? Those ones? He's still locked at the hip with Lupul and the other winger has been Raymond Clarkson most the time (who *some people* would argue are better than Kulemin). I could easily argue that his drop in production equates to him being better defensively (which is what you wanted, isn't it?) while I attribute the poor +/- to Lupul's slacking off this year. See, i can manipulate statistics too.

 

[LeafOfBread]

Lol Mess, Kadri is an average defensive player who has shown flashes of being good, but when you've spent most of your season with Joffrey Lupul who is arguably the worst defensive forward on the team, as well as Mason "I'm afraid of contact" Raymond, how will that line ever be good defensively? Notice how they did much better when Kulemin was placed onto that line.

 

[Mess]

What better linemates? You mean the ones he played with for less than 10 games? Those ones? He's still locked at the hip with Lupul and the other winger has been Raymond Clarkson most the time (who *some people* would argue are better than Kulemin). I could easily argue that his drop in production equates to him being better defensively (which is what you wanted, isn't it?) while I attribute the poor +/- to Lupul's slacking off this year. See, i can manipulate statistics too.

You're not manipulating statistics, you're creating your own narrative (excuse) to explain away the statistics that exist for all to see.

A +15 means Kadri was on the ice with his line-mates for 15 more goals for than against at even strength, whereas a -9 means 9 more goals against then goals for.. When a team scores more then they give up they win more than they lose and vice versa other other way around.

Kadri is trending down defensively and offensively from last year to this year and that also parallels the Leafs as they to are scoring less and giving up more goals against then they did last year resulting in less ROW.

Kadri is one of the players that needs to be better, because he has proven in the past what he is capable of. The opposition is exploiting the Kadri line to their gain at present. That is what plus/minus statistics demonstrate.

 

[cack]

First of all +/- doesn't equal getting worse. He played against much easier competition last year which would explain the difference to a certain extent. He's on pace for roughly 60pts. I don't see how he's fallen off to the degree you think. Even defensively.

Not to mention +/- is greatly influenced by other players on the ice.