Confirmed with Link: Muzzin to Toronto for 2019 1st, Grundstrom, and rights to Durzi

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Lombardi didn't think so at the time and was forced to play him when Erik Ersberg got hurt and he had no other options. He wanted him to play another year in Manchester. Remember what happened to Bernier after he got shelled in Detroit after 10 games because EVERYONE thought he was ready too? There's no hurry to trade Quick.

I do remember...and they also had Labarbera. But Bernier was 19. Campbell and Petersen have both been stellar and almost spectacular at times. Campbell just turned 27 and
Petersen is 24. There is no hurry to trade Quick, but if there's a good offer, you do it. It's going to happen, be it now, the offseason, a year from now - it's inevitable. Take a good offer and
give Campbell the spot. Bring up Petersen and let them both play as long as they are hot....and the other play the back to back games.
 
I do remember...and they also had Labarbera. But Bernier was 19. Campbell and Petersen have both been stellar and almost spectacular at times. Campbell just turned 27 and
Petersen is 24. There is no hurry to trade Quick, but if there's a good offer, you do it. It's going to happen, be it now, the offseason, a year from now - it's inevitable. Take a good offer and
give Campbell the spot. Bring up Petersen and let them both play as long as they are hot....and the other play the back to back games.


I think it really depends on the market for Quick. If no team is even remotely interested in forking over pick(s) for Quick, Blake should consider moving him for an expiring contract (like Bobrovsky) just to get his cap hit off the books. He is an amazing goalie IMO, but his services wont be needed during his critical years. I am confident that Campbell and Peterson can hold the fort, if not take over his role in the future. My only concern is if our defense is such garbage in the next two years that Campbell/Peterson will get shell shocked instead of being eased in. Perhaps waiting until TDL next year is a better option, although I am concerned that Quick's value may plummet with yet another injury next year.
 
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I think it really depends on the market for Quick. If no team is even remotely interested in forking over pick(s) for Quick, Blake should consider moving him for an expiring contract (like Bobrovsky) just to get his cap hit off the books. He is an amazing goalie IMO, but his services wont be needed during his critical years. I am confident that Campbell and Peterson can hold the fort, if not take over his role in the future. My only concern is if our defense is such garbage in the next two years that Campbell/Peterson will get shell shocked instead of being eased in. Perhaps waiting until TDL next year is a better option, although I am concerned that Quick's value may plummet with yet another injury next year.

This is a very important point that seems to be over looked with the "TRADE QUICK NOW" group. Not worth killing these guys confidence just to move Quick.
 
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How do you feel about the recent Pronman ranking where he discussed scouting groups that would pass on him in trade negotiations? Friedman and Pronman both discussed having scouts they talked to say similar things, essentially saying there were things to worry about with Lil. I won't pretend to be an expert on Durzi, but it seems that a lot of fans are still discussing Lil based on his early pre draft rankings where people considered him a top 5 pick. We have seen based on his slide in that draft, that there may be more question marks regarding him.
Not saying he's right, but Pronman had Lilj as TOR's best prospect and Durzi as their #9.
 
Not saying he's right, but Pronman had Lilj as TOR's best prospect and Durzi as their #9.

It seems like it's personal preference, because Scott Wheeler in his mid-November rankings at the Athletic had Liljegren at 2 and Durzi at 5 (Grundstrom was at 3). Of note, Pronman's respective 1 and 9 rankings were done in August. It seems as though Liljegren's stock has dropped in circles due to his play this season (as noted in Pronman's midseason notes about him).

2. Timothy Liljegren, RHD, 19 (Toronto Marlies)
It’s important, before I jump in here, to establish a baseline for my evaluations of Liljegren over the course of the last three years. For a little while, I believed he had a chance to be a top-five pick in the 2017 draft. By the time the draft arrived, while I’d begun to sour on him, I was aggressive in my belief within the scouting community that Liljegren was one of his class’ most gifted defencemen. I fought for him to sit higher on our final ranking at Future Considerations than where he landed (22nd). When the Leafs plucked him at 17th overall, I qualified him among a handful of players who’d fallen and could be classified as someone to keep an eye on as a potential steal. But as good as his rookie season in the AHL was (his 0.39 points per game ranks his under-19 AHL season ahead of Oliver Kylington’s 0.26 and Hampus Lindholm’s 0.25 as the best season by a teenage defenceman in recent memory), I have begun to sour on Liljegren’s upside based on an evaluation of his skill set, rather than his statistical context. There is very little reason, in terms of Liljegren’s production, for anyone to doubt him. This season, now 19, he has continued to progress in that way. His seven points in 13 games (0.54 points per game) puts him in good under-20 company, and second to Erik Brannstrom (0.92) among the five defencemen of his age group who’ve played in the AHL this season. My concerns with Liljegren’s game stem primarily from concerns of context, shooting and skating. The context includes that Liljegren has been gifted power play time. He has, since Day 1, been given top minutes when his team has the man advantage (often over players like Andrew Nielsen or Calle Rosen who’ve proven to be more effective in the role than he has). In 76 career AHL games to date, 13 of his 28 points have come on the man advantage as a result of that ice time. But most of all, my concerns stem from a talent evaluation. That evaluation is twofold:
  1. Liljegren isn’t a shot threat. He doesn’t have a slapshot and his wrister lacks power because he relies on an aggressive toe-to-heel curl to create it. That curl, while sometimes effective at changing angles, also takes time. And time allows opposing players to track it and block it. This season, Liljegren has just 14 shots on goal in 12 games as a result (in contrast, Borgman has 31 and Subban and Rosen each have 27). Without a shot threat, Liljegren’s ability to be a dynamic threat on an NHL power play will be limited.
  2. If Liljegren can’t be a PP1 option, he’ll need to be a reliable, even-strength option at both ends to be more than a third-pairing, right-shot defenceman for a contending team. While there has been progress in that area — Liljegren has been challenged to play tougher minutes (including on the penalty kill) out of the gate this year with Calle Rosen after getting reined in during last year’s playoff run — I’m not sure he’s ever going to be a great defenceman at the next level. The biggest reason for that is his skating. The easy argument to be made is that he’s young and the magic of Barb Underhill, time and strength can improve his stride (he struggled with a hip problem last season that may have hindered him too). But his skating should be a real concern for his path forward. He still splays out from his knees, rather than extending all the way through his stride. He still skates with a cumbersome pitchfork stride in straight lines and struggles with his pivots. All of these things continue to result in Liljegren getting turnstiled off the rush.
None of this is to say the kid doesn’t offer a lot. He does. He might be the best three-zone passer in the organization. He’s silky with with puck and getting more physical. These are all translatable skills that bode well. I’d still bank on him being an NHL defenceman within the next couple of years. But he’s not going to be a star. I just haven’t seen enough growth. And that means he’s a tier lower than I thought he was when the Leafs drafted him.

5. Sean Durzi, RHD, 20 (Owen Sound Attack)
Injured in the third period on October 26 (undisclosed), Durzi hasn’t played in three weeks. And despite having appeared in just nine of the Attack’s 20 games so far this season, his 10 points leads the team’s defence in scoring. After exploding with 15 goals in 40 games last season (0.38 goals per game, or second in the OHL to Golden Knights prospect Nic Hague), this year’s strong start was created despite having yet scored (zero goals on 25 shots). Durzi excels at retrieving loose pucks, creating clean exits and entries as a handler and passer, and moving to open up lanes for himself across the offensive zone blueline. But he’s also a sound man-on-man defender who plays a calculated, gap-controlled game off the rush. Still, having watched a lot of Owen Sound and the Newfoundland Growlers, I’m not sure Durzi was best served going back to the OHL this season. As good as the Growlers have been this season (11-5), their offence has been driven by high-end forward talent for the level and Durzi could have played a big role on a defence that started the year with Kristians Rubins as their PP1 quarterback and generates very little. He simply doesn’t get scored against at the OHL level anymore.

Timothy Liljegren, D, Toronto
Age: 19 | Drafted: 17th overall in 2017
Previous ranking: 32
I’ve never felt comfortable with my evaluation of Liljegren, no matter how much I’ve watched him in the past three-and-a-half seasons. Going into each ranking I’ve felt uneasy, which reflects evaluations of him across the industry. I’ve talked to scouts who love his game, and others who would pass on him in a trade discussion. There are days I see a skilled, intelligent, puck-moving defenseman who moves well and can help a power play. But the concerns are his game has a tad too much risk at times and his offense this season hasn’t been that significant. I’ve seen a bit too much of the bad this season that reminded me of the pessimism around him to make me flip from my rather high ranking in the summer. If someone wanted to argue him as a top-tier prospect, I could see the case, but I struggle to nail down what he is.
 
It seems like it's personal preference, because Scott Wheeler in his mid-November rankings at the Athletic had Liljegren at 2 and Durzi at 5 (Grundstrom was at 3). Of note, Pronman's respective 1 and 9 rankings were done in August. It seems as though Liljegren's stock has dropped in circles due to his play this season (as noted in Pronman's midseason notes about him).
For what it's worth, I was checking out your board because I am a Durzi fan and think he's underrated. I do however think that Liljegren is the better prospect, but overall I think the Kings got a great return (but also FWIW I do like Bracco better than Grundstrom, but that's likely heart over head).
 
For what it's worth, I was checking out your board because I am a Durzi fan and think he's underrated. I do however think that Liljegren is the better prospect, but overall I think the Kings got a great return (but also FWIW I do like Bracco better than Grundstrom, but that's likely heart over head).

That’s fair. I suspect the Kings would not have been able to talk the Leafs into a 1st, Liljegren, and Grundstrom (or Bracco). Liljegren clearly has the higher pedigree, but hopefully Durzi can keep developing.

Interestingly, I saw a number of Leafs fans say they would have rather lost Bracco than Grundstrom.
 
I think I can answer why the Friedman comment of the Kings scouts maybe preferring Durzi over Liljegren.

Liljegren no doubt possesses the talent to be a NHL player. But he is prone to defensive gaffes. His decision making was a major reason why his stock dropped his draft year. Basically hockey IQ. Or a lack of it. Something that cannot be taught some scouts feel. Here is a series of tweets from earlier this season.



 
That’s fair. I suspect the Kings would not have been able to talk the Leafs into a 1st, Liljegren, and Grundstrom (or Bracco). Liljegren clearly has the higher pedigree, but hopefully Durzi can keep developing.

Interestingly, I saw a number of Leafs fans say they would have rather lost Bracco than Grundstrom.
I'm not surprised. I think most would think that Grundstrom is by far the safer player. But I opt for skill/upside over safeness. Bracco is proving that he can absolutely put up points in the AHL... but that doesn't always translate. Grundstrom's game does translate, but may be a bottom 6 guy. If I'm looking for the 2nd or 3rd best piece in a package I'd gamble on the upside.. but I can see where others would disagree.
 
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I'm not surprised. I think most would think that Grundstrom is by far the safer player. But I opt for skill/upside over safeness. Bracco is proving that he can absolutely put up points in the AHL... but that doesn't always translate. Grundstrom's game does translate, but may be a bottom 6 guy. If I'm looking for the 2nd or 3rd best piece in a package I'd gamble on the upside.. but I can see where others would disagree.

I think Grundstrom plays a more protypical Kings game. Much heavier on the puck. He's got some skill to go a long with a safe package to be a NHL player. Probably as a support player in the top 2 lines on a team, or as an effective 3 liner. Ideally he would be the Landeskog on a Rantanen/Mackinnon line. BTW I am not comparing him to Landeskog. But a player that does the grunt work and defensive play to more skilled players on one of the team's scoring lines. The guy can sure shoot the puck. If I were a scout, I would take him over Bracco. Bracco has skill, but is far from certain making the top 2 lines of a NHL team. Whereas Grundstrom can play on any of the 4 lines on a team.

 
Man, that Grundstrom release is something else. He has a lot of half-stride or wrong-foot shot highlights as well, nice to see, and that's one of the most importantly translatable shooting skills for an NHLer, not needing a bunch of time, space, perfect situation to get off a monster ripper.

I think in 2008-2009...who thought Quick was ready?

Change happens....and it's begun. Quick cannot play forever and there are no more cups to challenge for, for
the foreseeable 2-3 years, at least. By then, Quick is 35-36 and the Kings may be a bubble team.
Take a top prospect for him...or possible #1 (possible salary retained) and helps the future and
gives Quick another shot at a Cup.

Petersen is ready. Campbell is ready. Kings are moving on. They have to.

Bernier had no business being in the NHL at 19, straight from junior on a garbage Kings team. It was a horrible decision that likely significantly damaged his NHL career.

Petersen at 24 years old is a way different situation.

I think you're all right. The thing is you don't know until you know. Goalies are voodoo. Some youngsters can come in and be Patrick Roy, some come in and lose their confidence. Some rip up the AHL like Barbs but are never ready. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with handing the reins over totally, but when would I be comfortable turning over from the best goalie in Kings history to anyone else.

If Quick moves on, it's as good a situation as you can hope for--a 'prospect' in Campbell who is old enough and ready to be a starter or drown, and a 'prospect' in Petersen who is showing massive promise but probably needs to be eased in. My only real concern is Campbell's mental game. Petersen? seems totally unflappable. Dude has ice in his veins. And worst comes to worst, Budaj is still hanging around, there's your experienced guy to get shelled if needed.


For what it's worth, I was checking out your board because I am a Durzi fan and think he's underrated. I do however think that Liljegren is the better prospect, but overall I think the Kings got a great return (but also FWIW I do like Bracco better than Grundstrom, but that's likely heart over head).

I think most people agree. Liljegren is the 'better' prospect. Their trajectories have been funky. I do think Liljegren gets a bit overrated because of his pedigree of being ranked near #1 overall and falling to TORONTO of all teams at 17, people are always ready to proclaim that a steal (like Angelo Esposito), but he's also still super young playing all situations in the AHL, which is a little bit of a bounceback for him. Durzi lost that draft after the ankle thing, bounced back hard, got also drafted by TO but seems many had already solidified that that pick was a waste even before he went back to juniors, underrating him a bit. I do think he's even more of a lotto ticket. 5 goals, 14 points in 9 games with Guelph is probably more what people were hoping for him this year, so hoping he's back to that guy.

But re: Pronman, he seems to have the same concerns everyone has re Liljegren at this point, which is all I think anyone is saying, not that he's trash or something:

 
Maybe this is part of what they're seeing, as well. Re Durzi's not getting drafted:

"“In my 22 years in the business, I’ve never seen a player handle that disappointment better than Sean Durzi. And I told him that. In some cases, players will be putting on a brave face or trying to convince other people around them that they’re OK. In Sean’s case it was just a very strong resolve and a quiet confidence,” Reynolds told The Athletic earlier this summer. “It just did not bother him. It did not faze him. And I could tell. I was so pleased.”

By the time Durzi landed back in Toronto, he was resolved to change everything. He spent that summer revamping his diet, his habits, and his training. He would return to the Owen Sound Attack, and he would have such a big year that teams couldn’t pass on him twice.

That summer and fall, after attending a series of NHL camps with the Leafs, Islanders and Panthers, Durzi realized he’d never properly prepared himself for the draft — and that maybe getting passed up could be a good thing."
 
Also re: Durzi's draft season:

"Durzi is one of those players who, in his draft year, reminded me a lot of a prospect like the aforementioned Jared McIsaac, in that he did a lot of things well but I wasn’t sold he was talented enough at the two or three things that matter most )namely, creating offence). He played on a really skilled Owen Sound Attack team, but he never leaped out at me. This year, that changed, and it tilted aggressively enough on an upward trajectory that I’m now confident there was more to his success than being a year older. He went from scoring three goals in 77 games last year, to posting 19 in 51 (!) this season, and finished second in the OHL in points per game to Evan Bouchard (a projected top-10 pick) in the process, out-producing early second rounders from his first go around at the draft like Connor Timmins and Nic Hague. Come playoffs, he was in complete control of the game whenever he was on the ice, and arguably Owen Sound’s best player (sorry, Nick Suzuki). His age can’t be ignored (he’s an October 1998 in a class of 2000s) but he played huge minutes as effectively as anyone in the CHL this year and that’s worth taking a shot on."
 
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That’s fair. I suspect the Kings would not have been able to talk the Leafs into a 1st, Liljegren, and Grundstrom (or Bracco). Liljegren clearly has the higher pedigree, but hopefully Durzi can keep developing.

Interestingly, I saw a number of Leafs fans say they would have rather lost Bracco than Grundstrom.

I just can’t imagine Blake preferring a 1st, Grundstrom, and Durzi over a 1st, Grundstrom, and Liljegren. Liljegren is just an objectively more valuable asset than Durzi head to head.

It had to have been a discrepancy in packages. Grundstrom was almost certainly not included in the Liljegren package. It’s possible the 1st rounder wasn’t even offered with Liljegren, but rather a 2nd or even 3rd. No reason for Toronto not to be stingy with their second best prospect.
 
I think it’s a matter of familiarity and character on both prospects. They asked for Sandin who is a riser, not Liljegren. That tells me enough. I think Liljegren is Jack Johnson 2.0 imho.

Durzi is a project no doubt and a bit of an underdog. I am sincerely rooting for him given what he went through. If he turns out, it’s just gravy.

Gotta make a good pick or turn it into a trade that gets them picking a few spots sooner to really capitalize on the Muzzin deal.
 
Safe isn't a problem in trades. You don't tend to get your next franchise guy in trades, because very few GMs trade that guy.
Totally agree, Blake should be looking for value and opportunity in these trades. There are very few sure fire prospects. Some guys are late bloomers, some can’t make the step to the next level. This is art as opposed to science. Hopefully, a few of these prospects will make the Kings’ roster and are productive.
 
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muzzin-jake.jpg


When you get traded to a team that doesn't suck.
 
Totally agree, Blake should be looking for value and opportunity in these trades. There are very few sure fire prospects. Some guys are late bloomers, some can’t make the step to the next level. This is art as opposed to science. Hopefully, a few of these prospects will make the Kings’ roster and are productive.
Ya at this point its more about winning trades / stockpiling assets then building out the future roster. So far so good.
 
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