Confirmed Trade: [MTL/NSH] PK Subban for Shea Weber - Pt. 2

[Rebels57]

While I think trade is a win-win I like it alot for Montreal.

Price is enterting the last of his peak seasons, u gotta win with him now, this is an upgrade and they also added Shaw, now they have the best Defenseman and the best Goaltender in the league, they are a much better team right when they need to be.

Need to add some more but this move and adding Shaw is a great start, the East is always wide open, a few more pieces and they are setting themselves up for a potential run.

Its nice to always have young players but u cant be building forever, you gotta peak and go for it, and now is the time for Montreal with Price at his best.

Good for Nashville aswell, they have a young core to build around with Forsberg, Subban, Johansen as the big 3, but I do like this alot from a MTL perspective.

Lol Shea Weber wasnt even the best defensemen on Nashville let alone i. the league. Subban is without question better..and 4 years younger

 

[LeafsLegendAkiBerg]

I think this trade is easily worse than the Hall trade. Edmonton tried to address an organizational need with a young player. Perfect for a rebuilding team - just might not have gotten the best value for Hall.

Montreal downgraded on defense with an older player who will be 31 at the start of the season and is on the decline. They're not ready to compete so what sense does this trade make?

 

[Random Forest]

GMs/coaches/etc have some information we don't about their teams. Sometimes some things they do look bad from our perspective, but are in fact good considering the circumstances we don't know about. That is important to understand in any analysis of GMs competence.

Inside information is something we don't have access to, and an NHL team isn't only built on paper. This is the real life.

Do I need to list every example of utter ineptitude we've seen in recent memory? Again, many of these guys are in the positions they're in because of circumstance. Not merit.

How many have run a business? Studied law? Hell, how many have a college degree? They may know hockey (even that is questionable; lots of fans know hockey too...), but why do we trust some of these morons with running major business operations? Because they were good hockey players? The state of management in the NHL is just embarrassing.

 

[preds1]

I'm right there with you. I nearly threw my new iPhone out the window going down interstate 40 when this popped up on the smashville app. We get a worse player, bigger cap hit, have to pay more money, and probably lose our newly drafted kid to free agency in 4 years. Whisky Foxtrot Tango Poile.

I'm still trying to accept this really went down.
The Weber hate on here is unreal. Most of MTL will have a #6 jersey by November.

Price/Weber will be something......

 

[Top 6 Spaling]

They got the early break in his contract so they would be obligated to follow through on it .

I know that's the way it's written right now, but a 24M cap penalty is absolutely insane. I doubt Weber retires that year, but if he does, I just don't see the NHL making us follow through on it. Hopefully we never find out.

its a 24M penality straight up right? not on the cap space?

It's a cap space penalty, if I understand correctly.

 

[skilles]

I think the biggest point is probably the no trade situation.

I seems they did not want Subbans no trade to kick in.

My guess is the feel like they have a chance with Price in net for 2 more years(then he is UFA).

Now they have a better #1 d man for those two years AND at the end of those two years they have a superstar d man they can trade anywhere they want.

I really can't believe with Weber not having a no trade the Oil didn't get him.

 

[pierre gagnon*]

hilarious how the habs downplayed him being moved and every offer was nowhere close to the great PK. Im sure his team-mates will be happy.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. for him

 

[Soundgarden]

Good news about this deal? Finally this main board will finally acknowledge PK for the quality player that he is. Joke is on you now. You will have to finally admit how great he is.

Likewise the East can finally watch Weber play more than once a year. Wouldn't be surprised to see him finally win his Norris.

 

[Regal]

so how does this work? they have to work with 59M? im lost. its not possible. its clearly just a 24M dollar fees.

Definitely not fees. They already paid him more money than they've been hit with on cap so the whole point is that they don't benefit from the cap and have to lose the space they gained in subsequent years. It makes no sense though to increase the numbers the longer a player plays out the contract to the point that I'm convinced either it was a complete oversight that they league knows is stupid and will somehow be worked around when the time comes, or the cap sites are misunderstanding the formula.

 

[Top 6 Spaling]

so how does this work? they have to work with 59M? im lost. its not possible. its clearly just a 24M dollar fees.

When it was written, no one expected this kind of mega-deal to be involved in a trade.

The idea is that so far, the Preds have been paying Weber 14M per year and only had ~8M of cap space taken up. To discourage front-loaded deals that had players signed until they were 50 or something dumb in an attempt to make the cap hit lower for teams, the NHL made this rule. The difference in cap space and actual salary at the time of the trade (in this case ~24M) would have to be paid over the remaining years of the deal. It makes sense for smaller deals, but when the difference is that massive, it leads to an illogically big penalty if it is only given out over one year.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

From our perspective, but maybe it was the best they could do under the circumstances. It's not stupidity, it's "minimizing loss". Sometimes the loss is still big.

How do you figure? Those were free agent contracts, the teams weren't obliged to offer them. The Leafs gave Clarkson a hard to move, buyout proof contract. It was always terrible.

 

[Laveuglette]

Do I need to list every example of utter ineptitude we've seen in recent memory? Again, many of these guys are in the positions they're in because of circumstance. Not merit.

How many have run a business? Studied law? Hell, how many have a college degree? They may know hockey (even that is questionable; lots of fans know hockey too...), but why do we trust some of these morons with running major business operations? Because they were good hockey players? The state of management in the NHL is just embarrassing.

They are not running teams alone.

How do you figure? Those were free agent contracts, the teams weren't obliged to offer them. The Leafs gave Clarkson a hard to move, buyout proof contract. It was always terrible.

Read too fast, sorry. I guess it was risk taking that didn't end up well. Gamble.

 

[Random Forest]

They are not running teams alone.

And many of them still make miserable managers.

 

[Regal]

When it was written, no one expected this kind of mega-deal to be involved in a trade.

The idea is that so far, the Preds have been paying Weber 14M per year and only had ~8M of cap space taken up. To discourage front-loaded deals that had players signed until they were 50 or something dumb in an attempt to make the cap hit lower for teams, the NHL made this rule. The difference in cap space and actual salary at the time of the trade (in this case ~24M) would have to be paid over the remaining years of the deal. It makes sense for smaller deals, but when the difference is that massive, it leads to an illogically big penalty if it is only given out over one year.

Using the remaining years was always stupid regardless of the contract though. It should have been averaged over the number of years the player played with the team. So if the Preds got a 24 million advantage over 4 years they should be hit with a 6 million penalty each year for 4 years after he retires.

 

[Laveuglette]

And many of them still make miserable managers.

Even if that was true, that wouldn't make hf posters with no information right.

 

[Rayban*]

I think the biggest point is probably the no trade situation.

I seems they did not want Subbans no trade to kick in.

My guess is the feel like they have a chance with Price in net for 2 more years(then he is UFA).

Now they have a better #1 d man for those two years AND at the end of those two years they have a superstar d man they can trade anywhere they want.

I really can't believe with Weber not having a no trade the Oil didn't get him.

He better hope Benning is still in the league.

 

[Moose Head]

I think this trade is easily worse than the Hall trade. Edmonton tried to address an organizational need with a young player. Perfect for a rebuilding team - just might not have gotten the best value for Hall.

Montreal downgraded on defense with an older player who will be 31 at the start of the season and is on the decline. They're not ready to compete so what sense does this trade make?

Yet somehow the better player didn't make Team Canada and the crappy one is first pairing.

Amazing how opinions on players change depending on their jersey. Never change Hfboards.

 

[HOPE]

When it was written, no one expected this kind of mega-deal to be involved in a trade.

The idea is that so far, the Preds have been paying Weber 14M per year and only had ~8M of cap space taken up. To discourage front-loaded deals that had players signed until they were 50 or something dumb in an attempt to make the cap hit lower for teams, the NHL made this rule. The difference in cap space and actual salary at the time of the trade (in this case ~24M) would have to be paid over the remaining years of the deal. It makes sense for smaller deals, but when the difference is that massive, it leads to an illogically big penalty if it is only given out over one year.

but the cap penalty will be one year?

 

[Doctor House]

Likewise the East can finally watch Weber play more than once a year. Wouldn't be surprised to see him finally win his Norris.

Playing with Markov, Beaulieu and Petry??

 

[Byrddog]

I know that's the way it's written right now, but a 24M cap penalty is absolutely insane. I doubt Weber retires that year, but if he does, I just don't see the NHL making us follow through on it. Hopefully we never find out.



































It's a cap space penalty, if I understand correctly.

Its all cap. To this point in his frontloaded contract we have accrued a 24 mil cap advantage. It will be divided by the number of years he retires prior to his last year. He will be 40 in the last year of the contract so at some point if he were in Nashville or elsewhere we would be on the hook. It is a horrid frontloaded contract and one of the reasons the league put the rule in the last CBA. Poile never should have matched the Philly offer but he did so now we wait to see how it unfolds. Our part will not transfer but the remaining frontload owed to Weber in bonuses will be transfered to Montreal. His bonus is due July 1 so Poile moved before that was paid

 

[Top 6 Spaling]

but the cap penalty will be one year?

It's divided over the number of years left.

If he retires one year before the contract ends, it's 24m for one year.
If he retires two years before the contract ends, it's 12m for two years.
If he retires three years before the contract ends, it's 8M for three years.
etc.

 

[Laveuglette]

Never said GMs are perfect, what I mostly said is that we can't really know what trades are really about as we lack information. In that case, it's obvious Subban was being shopped. Why? Who knows, but there must be a reason.

 

[NJDevs26]

It's amazing how utterly stupid the cap recapture penalty was designed. Though I'm still not sold that it will play out that way when it comes down to it.

Yeah there's still another CBA negotation to go where GM's will get penance for past mistakes.

But geez 24 million, Nashville would have to be a league minimum team to have enough space to fit that in

 

[Random Forest]

Even if that was true, that wouldn't make hf posters with no information right.

And yet, even with no information, a potato would have outdrafted the Vancouver Canucks over the past 15 years: http://canucksarmy.com/2014/5/20/we-think-the-vancouver-canucks-may-have-a-scouting-problem

The people pulling the strings in the NHL are not all deserving of the seats they sit in. Some do, of course, but I have no doubt that some of the more knowledgeable HFboards posters would make better managers than the worst GMs.

 

[CanadienShark]

Montreal gets better of deal for 2-3 years, Nashville after that.


You would think Montreal thinks it is in win now mode..?


Maybe they are. Weber gives them a much more legitimate presence and leader in front of Price. They need a few more forwards and will be in the playoffs for certain. Not sure with Subban they would.


I like this for the Habs believe it or not, changes face of their franchise, and makeup of team.

"Let's trade our best skater (by a longshot) and most valuable player for an older, inferior player just for fun."

Seriously, I'd have traded Price before Subban if it really came to it, but obviously both should've been off the table. This is Roy-trade level bad.