McKenzie: Moved: McKenzie: Oilers in on Barrie? (Moves by Colorado-- Merged)

[iCanada]

Congratulations, you listed several UFA contracts which are not even eligible in arbitration, and others who can point to Norris trophies or Norris trophy nominations. Barrie's comparables will be guys like Krug. I don't even know what your first sentence is supposed to mean either.

He isn't going to be compared to Krug who didn't score as much... he will be compared to guys whom his boxcar's are identical too.

Its like how Sam Gagner in Arbitration was compared to guys like Carter and Getzlaf.

They don't look at age in arbitration, most of them just look at boxcars. By the boxcars Barrie is comparable to Norris trophy winners. I don't think he is one. I also don't think Gagner ever could even sniff Getzlaf' jock strap. But an arbitrator awarded him a similar contract.

The av's really really don't want to take Barrie to an arbitrator. "Unbiased third party Arbitrator" is synonymous with "random Lawyer who is completely ignorant of hockey."

Barrie's Arbitration award will easily be 7.5 million, which is frankly too much for the player. Sakic should know this, and if he is willing to go to arbitration Barrie would have been signed to the lower deals he is asking for.

 

[EdAVSfan]

He isn't going to be compared to Krug who didn't score as much... he will be compared to guys whom his boxcar's are identical too.

Its like how Sam Gagner in Arbitration was compared to guys like Carter and Getzlaf.

They don't look at age in arbitration, most of them just look at boxcars. By the boxcars Barrie is comparable to Norris trophy winners. I don't think he is one. I also don't think Gagner ever could even sniff Getzlaf' jock strap. But an arbitrator awarded him a similar contract.

The av's really really don't want to take Barrie to an arbitrator. "Unbiased third party Arbitrator" is synonymous with "random Lawyer who is completely ignorant of hockey."

Barrie's Arbitration award will easily be 7.5 million, which is frankly too much for the player. Sakic should know this, and if he is willing to go to arbitration Barrie would have been signed to the lower deals he is asking for.

You clearly do not understand how arbitration works in the nhl.

Players can only compare themselves to other RFA contracts. You can't use UFA contracts as a comparable

 

[Drij]

If he was willing to go to arbitration he'd have been signed already.

Offensive first players like Barrie get paid hard by 3rd parties that don't watch the sport and are simply presented boxcar stats w/ contract examples. He'll be compared to players like Weber, Suter, Burns, Letang, Doughty, Giordano, Subban etc.

He isn't as good a player as those guys, but his boxcar's look nearly identical.

The Av's would lose at arbitration quite hard.

I'm not sure you know how arbitration works...

 

[Avs44]

He isn't going to be compared to Krug who didn't score as much... he will be compared to guys whom his boxcar's are identical too.

Its like how Sam Gagner in Arbitration was compared to guys like Carter and Getzlaf.

They don't look at age in arbitration, most of them just look at boxcars. By the boxcars Barrie is comparable to Norris trophy winners. I don't think he is one. I also don't think Gagner ever could even sniff Getzlaf' jock strap. But an arbitrator awarded him a similar contract.

The av's really really don't want to take Barrie to an arbitrator. "Unbiased third party Arbitrator" is synonymous with "random Lawyer who is completely ignorant of hockey."

Barrie's Arbitration award will easily be 7.5 million, which is frankly too much for the player. Sakic should know this, and if he is willing to go to arbitration Barrie would have been signed to the lower deals he is asking for.

You're spewing random numbers to try to appear educated on the topic. You made up 7.5 million, that is your opinion. You also have no idea what "lower numbers" Barrie is asking for, because none of Barrie's demands have been leaked.


Names like PK Subban are not comparables, there are far more stats than just points, and things like Norris Trophies will actually matter. Teams and players each get 90 minutes to speak and present their case in arbitration. If things were half as simple as you are pretending, they would give them 10 minutes. They don't give each side 1.5 hours to make an argument that they are right, ending with the arbitrator making a decision based off of a 2 minutes glance at stats. That is such a simplistic perspective. The NHL and the NHLPA jointly select 8 arbitrators to run all cases.


The Avs can present comparables as well, and names like Torey Krug will absolutely be brought up. It's the most recent contract example from a guy who scores 5-10 points less. Names like Dougie Hamilton, whp put up 41 points in 72 games, a 47 point pace, the year before he signed, are also very fair comparables. That 47 point pace was 2 points shy of Barrie this past year. To add on to that, Barrie's camp is not allowed to toss out random names. Each party has to create their list of comparables, exchange them, jointly agree on what will be allowed and settle those differences beforehand, and then submit that final list to the arbitrator. Those names are then the only ones legally permitted as comparables in the room, to the arbitrator. There are also rules in the CBA that guide what names are even allowed. Only Group 2 RFA contract can be presented. You tossing out names like Ryan Suter pretty much proves you have no idea how this works.

 

[TheNumber4]

um Sakic said he would take Barrie to arbitration is needed.

But before he did that he hummed and hawwed whether he should. And probably still is.

 

[iCanada]

I agree with you...

Does the random Lawyer who doesn't watch hockey? I dunno. Do you want to gamble on what the random Lawyer who doesn't watch hockey thinks?

Barrie: 78 gp, 13 goals, 36 assists, 49 points.

Group 1: 8.2 Million AAV
82 GP, 14g, 37a, 51 points
82 gp, 8g, 43a, 51 points
78 gp, 20g, 31a, 51 points
81 gp, 14g, 35a, 49 points

Group 2: 5.1 Million AAV
81 gp, 4g, 40a, 44 points
75 gp, 6g, 30a, 36 points
81 gp, 5g, 35a, 40 points
82 gp, 8g, 32a, 40 points

If you knew nothing about hockey, which guy do you think Barrie compares to? I bet any non hockey fan you ask leans quite hard toward group 1.

 

[suddeninterest]

I think the Krug deal will ensure that Barrie gets 6+. Barrie is bigger (slightly), puts up more points on an (arguably) worse team, is a better overall defender, and shoots right which imo is a premium. The Krug deal kind of set the bar for Barrie's contract in terms of himself/agent acceptance and of arbitration. Lets just say there is no way he will now be getting less than 5.25m.

 

[EdAVSfan]

I think the Krug deal will ensure that Barrie gets 6+. Barrie is bigger (slightly), puts up more points on an (arguably) worse team, is a better overall defender, and shoots right which imo is a premium. The Krug deal kind of set the bar for Barrie's contract in terms of himself/agent acceptance and of arbitration. Lets just say there is no way he will now be getting less than 5.25m.

I think 90% of avs fans were ok with anything in the 5.5-6.5 range

 

[GirardSpinorama]

I agree with you...

Does the random Lawyer who doesn't watch hockey? I dunno. Do you want to gamble on what the random Lawyer who doesn't watch hockey thinks?

Barrie: 78 gp, 13 goals, 36 assists, 49 points.

Group 1: 8.2 Million AAV
82 GP, 14g, 37a, 51 points
82 gp, 8g, 43a, 51 points
78 gp, 20g, 31a, 51 points
81 gp, 14g, 35a, 49 points

Group 2: 5.1 Million AAV
81 gp, 4g, 40a, 44 points
75 gp, 6g, 30a, 36 points
81 gp, 5g, 35a, 40 points
82 gp, 8g, 32a, 40 points

If you knew nothing about hockey, which guy do you think Barrie compares to? I bet any non hockey fan you ask leans quite hard toward group 1.

The NHL doesn't use idiots as arbitrators.

 

[suddeninterest]

I think 90% of avs fans were ok with anything in the 5.5-6.5 range

I'm gonna say he gets something like 6.25-6.5m x 6. As a fan I would be okay with that. The problem is that I just don't know if Colorado ownership/Sakic would. I get the feeling they really don't wanna pay him that, if they did I think he'd be signed.

 

[iCanada]

The NHL doesn't use idiots as arbitrators.

I see.

 

[Avsblitzkrieg]

I agree with you...

Does the random Lawyer who doesn't watch hockey? I dunno. Do you want to gamble on what the random Lawyer who doesn't watch hockey thinks?

Barrie: 78 gp, 13 goals, 36 assists, 49 points.

Group 1: 8.2 Million AAV
82 GP, 14g, 37a, 51 points
82 gp, 8g, 43a, 51 points
78 gp, 20g, 31a, 51 points
81 gp, 14g, 35a, 49 points

Group 2: 5.1 Million AAV
81 gp, 4g, 40a, 44 points
75 gp, 6g, 30a, 36 points
81 gp, 5g, 35a, 40 points
82 gp, 8g, 32a, 40 points

If you knew nothing about hockey, which guy do you think Barrie compares to? I bet any non hockey fan you ask leans quite hard toward group 1.

There other numbers I'm sure that would be compared as well in your hypothetical. Defensive numbers and we all know it's not his strength..
Most all lawyers I know are thorough to the point of measuem

 

[GirardSpinorama]

I see.

Why not just send every defensive dmen to arbitration.

 

[Seedling]

The NHL doesn't use idiots as arbitrators.

 

[snipes]

The NHL doesn't use idiots as arbitrators.

Exactly.

I have legal training and can say that arbitrators are picked for their ability in the particular field they are arbitrating. For example, if there was a construction dispute between two parties, the arbitrator they would use would be someone well versed in that area of law and the type of disputes that emerge in construction contracts.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Exactly.

I have legal training and can say that arbitrators are picked for their ability in the particular field they are arbitrating. For example, if there was a construction dispute between two parties, the arbitrator they would use would be someone well versed in that area of law and the type of disputes that emerge in construction contracts.

Yup.

 

[Greg Schuler]

I agree with you...

Does the random Lawyer who doesn't watch hockey? I dunno. Do you want to gamble on what the random Lawyer who doesn't watch hockey thinks?

Barrie: 78 gp, 13 goals, 36 assists, 49 points.

Group 1: 8.2 Million AAV
82 GP, 14g, 37a, 51 points
82 gp, 8g, 43a, 51 points
78 gp, 20g, 31a, 51 points
81 gp, 14g, 35a, 49 points

Group 2: 5.1 Million AAV
81 gp, 4g, 40a, 44 points
75 gp, 6g, 30a, 36 points
81 gp, 5g, 35a, 40 points
82 gp, 8g, 32a, 40 points

If you knew nothing about hockey, which guy do you think Barrie compares to? I bet any non hockey fan you ask leans quite hard toward group 1.

You need the rest of Barrie's career stats:

64 gp, 13g, 25a, 38 points
80 gp, 12g, 41a, 53 points
78 gp, 13g, 36a, 49 points

So, yes, he looks more like Group 1, except there is no defenseman who makes 8.2 million - Subban makes 9 million and then Weber.

As far as your digs at the arbitrator, their hockey experience is irrelevant. Both sides can present their case as they see fit. Both sides can present who they think are comparables, as long as those comparable players are age and experience appropriate and signed a contract as a restricted free agent. The arbitrator then evaluates that evidence and presents his ruling within the framework of both submissions. Arbitration is a salary inflation device, which is why players love it. But, given the massive advantages teams have over players before unrestricted free agency, it is one of the few perks a player gets in the contract arena.

And teams can always walk away from the award if they feel it is completely out of line.

I know you probably think you're a real hockey guy, someone who just knows a good player just by your infallible eye test. Unlike some "nerd" who has a law degree and does complex legal and arbitration hearings and is making a decision based on the case presented. How dare he not know who has the grit and guff, instead of those "boxcar" stats you go on about. The very nerve of that person to even exist, I tells you!

 

[snipes]

Yup. Oiler fans are really nervous that they traded away Hall and still didn't get back a PMD.

I don't like the value of the trade. However, I think we are a better team because of the trade, if that makes sense?

Arbitrators are not idiots. They are intelligent and among the brightest legal minds. In fact, it is usually to the benefit of both parties to go to arbitration rather than courts with judges who may not be versed in the particular issues arising.

 

[Jakey53]

He isn't going to be compared to Krug who didn't score as much... he will be compared to guys whom his boxcar's are identical too.

Its like how Sam Gagner in Arbitration was compared to guys like Carter and Getzlaf.

They don't look at age in arbitration, most of them just look at boxcars. By the boxcars Barrie is comparable to Norris trophy winners. I don't think he is one. I also don't think Gagner ever could even sniff Getzlaf' jock strap. But an arbitrator awarded him a similar contract.

The av's really really don't want to take Barrie to an arbitrator. "Unbiased third party Arbitrator" is synonymous with "random Lawyer who is completely ignorant of hockey."

Barrie's Arbitration award will easily be 7.5 million, which is frankly too much for the player. Sakic should know this, and if he is willing to go to arbitration Barrie would have been signed to the lower deals he is asking for.

Barrie will not get 7.5.

 

[Avs44]

I agree with you...

Does the random Lawyer who doesn't watch hockey? I dunno. Do you want to gamble on what the random Lawyer who doesn't watch hockey thinks?

Barrie: 78 gp, 13 goals, 36 assists, 49 points.

Group 1: 8.2 Million AAV
82 GP, 14g, 37a, 51 points
82 gp, 8g, 43a, 51 points
78 gp, 20g, 31a, 51 points
81 gp, 14g, 35a, 49 points

Group 2: 5.1 Million AAV
81 gp, 4g, 40a, 44 points
75 gp, 6g, 30a, 36 points
81 gp, 5g, 35a, 40 points
82 gp, 8g, 32a, 40 points

If you knew nothing about hockey, which guy do you think Barrie compares to? I bet any non hockey fan you ask leans quite hard toward group 1.

Can you please provide all the names of the examples you gave? List when they signed their contracts and their accomplishments and role on club.


I think you're giving far too little credit to the intelligence of the arbitrators. Mike Hoffman went to arbitration last year, coming off of a 27 goal season. Do you know how much one of these apparently stupid arbitrators awarded him? 2 million. That was 250k more than the team requested.

Marcus Johansson also went to arbitration last year, coming off a 20 goal 47 point season. He was awarded 3.75 million, 750k more than the team asked for.


Hoffman had the 85th most points among all forwards that year, 31st most goals. Using your logic, he should have earned far more than 2 million. Why? If we lined up box scores like you did, Tyler Ennis, 46 points that year, 4.6 million. Brendan Gallagher, 47 points that year, 3.75 million. Why did Hoffman not get something between 3.5-4.5 million? According to the logic you're employing, he should have.

 

[snipes]

I agree with you...

Does the random Lawyer who doesn't watch hockey? I dunno. Do you want to gamble on what the random Lawyer who doesn't watch hockey thinks?

Barrie: 78 gp, 13 goals, 36 assists, 49 points.

Group 1: 8.2 Million AAV
82 GP, 14g, 37a, 51 points
82 gp, 8g, 43a, 51 points
78 gp, 20g, 31a, 51 points
81 gp, 14g, 35a, 49 points

Group 2: 5.1 Million AAV
81 gp, 4g, 40a, 44 points
75 gp, 6g, 30a, 36 points
81 gp, 5g, 35a, 40 points
82 gp, 8g, 32a, 40 points

If you knew nothing about hockey, which guy do you think Barrie compares to? I bet any non hockey fan you ask leans quite hard toward group 1.

I'm an Oilers fan and I have to say it's not that simple.

The arbitrators they use will be trained in the issues faced during the negotiation stages for pro sports contracts. It's not random lawyers.

 

[Homesick]

He isn't going to be compared to Krug who didn't score as much... he will be compared to guys whom his boxcar's are identical too.

Its like how Sam Gagner in Arbitration was compared to guys like Carter and Getzlaf.

They don't look at age in arbitration, most of them just look at boxcars. By the boxcars Barrie is comparable to Norris trophy winners. I don't think he is one. I also don't think Gagner ever could even sniff Getzlaf' jock strap. But an arbitrator awarded him a similar contract.

The av's really really don't want to take Barrie to an arbitrator. "Unbiased third party Arbitrator" is synonymous with "random Lawyer who is completely ignorant of hockey."

Barrie's Arbitration award will easily be 7.5 million, which is frankly too much for the player. Sakic should know this, and if he is willing to go to arbitration Barrie would have been signed to the lower deals he is asking for.

 

[itsmagic]

Ultracrepidarianism run amok

Word of the day for this thread...and perhaps most other threads in the Trade Rumors and Free Agents forum.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultracrepidarianism#/search

Well done HF Boards family

 

[dookers9]

It really makes me happy to see Edmonton forced to give up some of their offensive nucleus for some defence.

Slow night in the nation's capital?

Would have thought that missing the playoffs for so long and sucking so bad for years would have done the trick. But alas...

 

[itsmagic]

Ultracrepidarianism run amok

Word of the day for this thread...and perhaps most other threads in the Trade Rumors and Free Agents forum.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultracrepidarianism#/search

Well done HF Boards family