McKenzie: Moved: McKenzie: Oilers in on Barrie? (Moves by Colorado-- Merged)

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CaptainSexyPants

Registered User
Sep 27, 2012
1,301
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They overpaid to get one ;)

Sure did. But the alternative was...?

Years of HF screaming from the roof tops... "OMG, like, just...lose a trade already, or something. All these forwards are TOTES not working, just over pay but get a top defenseman!!!"...they do it, and, predictably, they're morons for it. Never change, HF. Never change. :laugh:
 

IWantSakicAsMyGM

Registered User
Oct 13, 2011
9,991
4,236
Colorado
Why did you pick top 4? So you could include Puljujarvi?

Why did you only go back 7 drafts for the Oilers but 8 for the Avs? So your numbers sounded better?

And I am not going to say the Oilers have been successful in the last decade but don't cherry pick and choose numbers that make numbers sound better for your argument.

Usually you pick top 3, top 5 or top 10 and use the same length of time.

Here...

Over the past 10 drafts the Oilers have picked in the NHL Entry Draft...
Top 3 - 5 times
Top 5 - 6 times
Top 10 - 9 times

Over the past 10 drafts the Avs have picked in the NHL Entry Draft...
Top 3 - 3 times
Top 5 - 3 times
Top 10 - 5 times

See you can still make the Avs sound better without cherry picking... it usually garners more respect for you and your argument.

If there is no difference in top 4 picks or top 5 picks, in terms of total numbers, why does it matter where I draw the line? Calling them top 4 picks is technically more accurate, since none of the "Top 5" players for either team was picked at #5.

And I went back 8 years for the Avs to include Duchene (the first ever top 10 pick for the Avs since moving to Denver 20+ years ago). Otherwise, it's 6 top 4/5 picks for the Oilers in 7 years, compared to only 2 for the Avs in that same 7 years. So, I actually made the Avs look worse by including the additional year, not better.

I also didn't go back 10 years because neither team was truly bad 10 years ago. The Avs had never picked in the top 10 until after the 2008-09 season, and it wasn't until the 2009-10 season that the Oilers hit rock bottom. So, why include irrelevant data when we're talking about being bottom dwellers?
 

Avs44

Registered User
May 16, 2011
21,882
10,654
So you didn't follow Sakic and Forsberg when they relocated to Colorado? Funny how it's convenient to ignore the futility from a few years prior when the team gets parachutted into Colorado. It's the fact that they were so bad(before you even bothered to watch hockey) that they ended up with the players to help deliver the Stanley Cups that you got to enjoy...or am i still talking before your time?

You really are living in the past, aren't you? Welcome to 2016, where what happened in the 80's and 90's no longer actually has much relevance to today, despite your petty need to demean successes over 20 years. The bitterness is glorious. You're welcome to catch up to the present anytime.
 

PatrikOverAuston

Laine > Matthews
Jun 22, 2016
3,573
989
Winnipeg
Stauffer is that you?

I would argue with you but your post is just way to long and all over the place. Try shorter ones with less quotations.

go outside man, try a hobby.

So, zero refutations to any of my points- just a whole lot of side-stepping. Must mean none of you have any salient arguments.

I love how EdmontonExpress thinks he knows more about the Quebec/Colorado franchise than all Avs/Nords fans put together.

About the same to start off, but at least this poster addressed my points later on. However, apparently only Avs fans can offer a fair and balanced take on what their GM is doing. Oh, and coincidentally, Sakic is a great GM according to the contributors in this thread thanks for asking. You don't see any of the obviously faulty logic in that?

IWantSakicAsMyGM has at least tried to keep up, but his username alone suggests he or she won't ever accept a criticism of the man.
 

IWantSakicAsMyGM

Registered User
Oct 13, 2011
9,991
4,236
Colorado
So you didn't follow Sakic and Forsberg when they relocated to Colorado? Funny how it's convenient to ignore the futility from a few years prior when the team gets parachutted into Colorado. It's the fact that they were so bad(before you even bothered to watch hockey) that they ended up with the players to help deliver the Stanley Cups that you got to enjoy...or am i still talking before your time?

Sakic was a 15th OA pick. Forsberg wasn't drafted by the Nordiques, and wasn't a top 5 pick.

Couldn't really follow those 3 1OA picks by the Nordique in Colorado, since they played a combined total of 9 games in an Avs jersey (all by Owen Nolan before getting traded to San Jose).
 

Makar Goes Fast

grocery stick
Aug 17, 2012
12,602
4,219
downtown poundtown
So, zero refutations to any of my points- just a whole lot of side-stepping. Must mean none of you have any salient arguments.



About the same to start off, but at least this poster addressed my points later on. However, apparently only Avs fans can offer a fair and balanced take on what their GM is doing. Oh, and coincidentally, Sakic is a great GM according to the contributors in this thread thanks for asking. You don't see any of the obviously faulty logic in that?

IWantSakicAsMyGM has at least tried to keep up, but his username alone suggests he or she won't ever accept a criticism of the man.

nope just means i didnt read your novel you wrote and you are wasting your time.
 

AvsGuy

Hired the wrong DJ again
Sep 13, 2002
10,601
2,742
Regina, SK
What's with the dbags in here? Did someone really just use the word salient? What's up with Tyson Barrie?
 

IWantSakicAsMyGM

Registered User
Oct 13, 2011
9,991
4,236
Colorado
So, zero refutations to any of my points- just a whole lot of side-stepping. Must mean none of you have any salient arguments.



About the same to start off, but at least this poster addressed my points later on. However, apparently only Avs fans can offer a fair and balanced take on what their GM is doing. Oh, and coincidentally, Sakic is a great GM according to the contributors in this thread thanks for asking. You don't see any of the obviously faulty logic in that?

IWantSakicAsMyGM has at least tried to keep up, but his username alone suggests he or she won't ever accept a criticism of the man.

Oh no, my user name has Sakic in it, from when I created it months after he joined the team as an adviser. I must be completely biased, right?

Sakic is 3 years into being the GM. He's made some good moves, he's made some mistakes. But, the general direction of the team is significantly better than what it was in the late days of the LaCroix era. And, long term, I think his efforts have a good chance to pay off.
 

JLo217

Registered User
Jul 22, 2009
17,600
5,791
Reno, NV
So, zero refutations to any of my points- just a whole lot of side-stepping. Must mean none of you have any salient arguments.



About the same to start off, but at least this poster addressed my points later on. However, apparently only Avs fans can offer a fair and balanced take on what their GM is doing. Oh, and coincidentally, Sakic is a great GM according to the contributors in this thread thanks for asking. You don't see any of the obviously faulty logic in that?

IWantSakicAsMyGM has at least tried to keep up, but his username alone suggests he or she won't ever accept a criticism of the man.

Keep up that yellow journalism Bob!
 

ManofSteel55

Registered User
Aug 15, 2013
33,538
14,042
Sylvan Lake, Alberta
Sakic was a 15th OA pick. Forsberg wasn't drafted by the Nordiques, and wasn't a top 5 pick.

Couldn't really follow those 3 1OA picks by the Nordique in Colorado, since they played a combined total of 9 games in an Avs jersey (all by Owen Nolan before getting traded to San Jose).

But you still need to realize that without the Nordiques stinking it up worse than any other team in history, the team that you had delivered to Denver wouldn't have been a contender.

Lindros - Forsberg, Ricci, Hextall (traded for a pick that got Adam Deadmarsh), Simon

Sundin - Clark (traded for Claude Lemieux)

Nolan - Ozilinsh

Nearly all of your key players for your cups came via the Nordiques being absolutely awful.
 

JLo217

Registered User
Jul 22, 2009
17,600
5,791
Reno, NV
But you still need to realize that without the Nordiques stinking it up worse than any other team in history, the team that you had delivered to Denver wouldn't have been a contender.

Lindros - Forsberg, Ricci, Hextall (traded for a pick that got Adam Deadmarsh), Simon

Sundin - Clark (traded for Claude Lemieux)

Nolan - Ozilinsh

Nearly all of your key players for your cups came via the Nordiques being absolutely awful.

Honestly that has more to do with great trades than drafting... So sure they weren't great but a lot of the trades they made ultimately contributed to the success of CO winning two cups.

Stinking it up might have some to do with it, but really any argument of them sucking before moving to Denver and having a lot of great players from draft picks isn't a great argument. Their asset management in terms of trades and maximizing value is the real key to their success. A lot of the moves could even be contributed while the team was already in CO.
 

The Abusement Park

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Jan 18, 2016
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But you still need to realize that without the Nordiques stinking it up worse than any other team in history, the team that you had delivered to Denver wouldn't have been a contender.

Lindros - Forsberg, Ricci, Hextall (traded for a pick that got Adam Deadmarsh), Simon

Sundin - Clark (traded for Claude Lemieux)

Nolan - Ozilinsh

Nearly all of your key players for your cups came via the Nordiques being absolutely awful.

You still have to get lucky to become that good. A high end pick doesn't guarantee a good player, just a better shot at getting one. Even if you do get good players you have to build a team that can win and play well together. The Avs team of 03-04 is the perfect example that a team with great players isn't a good team. For all we know the Maple Leafs rebuild could fail and they could suck for the next 10 years. A rebuild doesn't guarantee success. Sometimes you get lucky, like Lacroix was with the Lindros trade, but he also made very good trades to make the team better. Regardless both teams have sucked for the last 10 years, no need to fight over it.
 

NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS

Registered User
Feb 28, 2006
13,542
5,771
It's like watching two homeless people argue over who lives in a better cardboard box.

Both teams were terrible and mismanaged for the better part of a decade.

Zero impact in what's happening with Barrie.
 

PatrikOverAuston

Laine > Matthews
Jun 22, 2016
3,573
989
Winnipeg
Part 2 in the on-going saga:

IWantSakicAsMyGM said:
Now up? Duchene and Varly have 3 years left. Landeskog has 5 years left. EJ hasn't even played a game on his new contract yet.

The consistent narrative in this thread has been that the Avs won't be contenders until next season, 2017-18. That leaves precisely one year to prove to Varlamov and Duchene that the team is worth staying on beyond Summer 2019. Sakic's never shown an appetite to best the market in terms of salary, so if he can't sell the team on its merits (re: none) and if he won't overpay, that's bye-bye and the start of a fresh rebuild.

Soda has a cap hit of $4.75m. ROR has a cap hit of $7.5m. That's a $2.75m difference, not $1.8m.

$900K of that is that eaten up by Grigorenko, ergo $1.8M in savings.

Winning the Central 3 years ago apparently means we're worse than a team that hasn't been to the playoffs in 10 years.

Winning the Central 3 years ago is a distant memory to all but Avs fans, and it's fading in the rearview with every passing season. Colorado is not a threat today. If they're not in 3 years when Barrie, Duchene and Varlamov all get to pick their destinations, that's Rebuild 2.0- and another five years. Sakic may well make the Browns look good.

Why is it such a problem that the team traded 1 very good player for 4 players to help in the future? We knew it was a futures trade, not sure why you want to judge the outcome based solely on the year following the trade.

Because the Avs are supposed to be winning now? Sakic structured his team that way. If you don't want folks to draw that inference, you should be upset at him for building his team that way, not at me for pointing it out.

Sakic wasn't involved in the initial contract negotiations that led to the holdout/offersheet. He wasn't the one that caused the issues, no matter how many times you repeat this.

That's some awful nice revisionist history, and it's time we dug into it. As noted here, Sakic was part of the front office who low-balled O'Reilly with a five-year $17 MILLION contract leading up to the offer sheet. That's insulting for a player of his caliber, and no wonder he was interested in reaching UFA as soon as possible.

Oh, and what happened less than 60 days later? As a reward for his incompetence, Sakic was appointed EVP of Hockey Operations!

Sakic created the situation, poured gas on it with the two-year extension he later gave and then lit the match when he traded him for magic beans. You can hand-wave away the truth and point fingers at other GMs who preceded him, but that's not what happened.

Who said he put us in a tight position? That quote was specifically answering a claim that the Avs have an internal budget.

Then Sakic should be able to re-sign the kid, right? What else is the problem? Oh right, we know what it is- he's cheap. I'm glad that cfg clarified that for everyone.

He was employed with the team, but didn't take over as the GM until 2013. Or do you think that he was fully in charge from the beginning?

So as an Executive Advisor you believe Joe Sakic did no advising. Wow, that's a hell of a black mark against him if true. Although, to be fair, he he hasn't exactly done much managing, either- just reacting, long after the train has left the station and he's forced to bargain from a weakened position.

The Lightning have 0 NHL games played by players drafted after 2013. The Blackhawks have 8 NHL games played by players they drafted after 2012. The Canadiens have 1 NHL game since 2013. The Penguins have 30 NHL games since 2012. Not sure why you think 40 NHL games somehow proves that our scouting staff is completely inept.

None of Tampa, Chicago or Montreal have drafted as consistently low as Colorado has since 2013. They had ample opportunity to best the league's other scouting staffs on position alone, and you'd kind of hope that they'd do better than a team that hasn't had a first rounder in two years (cough Chicago cough). However, that's not the case- hell, they blow 1st rounders, never mind second-day picks.

But no, nothing wrong with the Avalanche scouting under Sakic... not a thing.

ROR scored 1 more point than Duchene in 5 more games. Definitely earned the extra $1.5m.

With the added intangibles ROR brings? Absolutely. Or are Avs fans now trying to wipe that under the rug?

So, because the futures didn't pay off in year 1, it's an abject failure? Zadorov looks ready for top 4 duty. Grigorenko looks like he could be a top 6 forward. Compher just finished a very good junior year at Michigan and signed his ELC. Greer just signed his ELC.

And O'Reilly scored 60 points. Next.

What poor record? Trading ROR for a better return than most on HF were predicting and trying to build a team for the future? Getting rid of the AHL caliber D he inherited?

When you have to defer to HF as a group for expectations on anything, you've surely lost. You're letting this place blind you. If the Trade forum immediately decided Crosby for Glass was fair, does that mean the Pens did well trading him for Josh Bailey?

Sure, if ROR were willing to sign for $6m, Soderberg wouldn't have been needed. But, ROR wanted $8m to stay in Denver. Soderberg is a significanly better value for the money we spent on him.

So great a value that the Avs finished with eight less points as a team. Boy, Sakic really put those dollars he saved to good use.

Sakic has done a number of good things for the team, to prepare them for long term success.

Apparently he's forgotten teams also eventually need success today.

You seem to think that trading ROR somehow ruined the team's future. Looking back at franchise history, the Avs traded Eric Lindros for futures. Remind me again how that turned out for the team.

So if it's such a great practice, the Avs should immediately trade Duchene, Landeskog and Johnson for prospects 2+ years from the NHL, right?

They are both signed for 3 more years. Duchene loves the Avs, and will likely be here for his entire career.

Money talks- apparently a language Sakic doesn't know.

Varlamov is good, but not irreplaceable.

So why did Sakic drop such a hefty paycheck on him?

When we discredit the contents of your post, you ignore it and double down on your incorrect claims.

Apparently all facts that paint Joe Sakic in a less-than-flattering light as a GM are incorrect. Good to know.
 

PatrikOverAuston

Laine > Matthews
Jun 22, 2016
3,573
989
Winnipeg
nope just means i didnt read your novel you wrote and you are wasting your time.

What's with the dbags in here? Did someone really just use the word salient? What's up with Tyson Barrie?

Keep up that yellow journalism Bob!

Still no rebuttals to my points, just more insults and deflections. It's about time this thread was locked, as it's clear Avs fans have no convincing answers for the criticisms leveled at their team in the handling of Tyson Barrie and another prominent RFA from the past and can't handle that truth in a mature fashion.
 

AvsGuy

Hired the wrong DJ again
Sep 13, 2002
10,601
2,742
Regina, SK
I think it more needs to be locked because you keep quoting and writing outrageously long posts and you simply won't go away.

Any news at all on Barrie?
 
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