Confirmed with Link: Morgan Frost new contract 2 x $2.1m

[Flyerfan4life]

In their rolls, Cates is peanut butter and Frost* is Nutella.






* I avoided the too-easy "Frosting", so don't ask

such a missed oppurtunity...

 

[Beef Invictus]

The stance of this team continues to be that we should pair our best scoring talent with "safe" players to protect them from their own evil scoring ways instead of maxing out production opportunities (while assuming scoring players can't/don't play defense) and I'm supposed to believe that everything isn't the same

 

[freakydallas13]

So defense doesn't matter?

I see this with PP scoring as well, people go gaga over a player padding his stats on the PP, and ignore that what matters are "Net special teams," that is, how many goals are scored for and against on both the PP and the PK - which means that a top PK killer is worth as much as a top PP scorer.

This is similar to baseball, where traditionally BA and runs scored and RBIs were considered the measure of quality, then advanced metrics showed OPS was far more correlated to winning and that defense made a significant contribution.

Both Frost and Cates significantly improved offensively once they became 2a and 2b in December.
Both players are 24, with upside left but a lot of uncertainty due to a limited resume.

It's not either, they fill different roles and are used differently, you want Frost to get favorable matchups to aid his offensive production, you use Cates as a shutdown defensive center, a role which will suppress his offense.
Frost needs to show he can score against better competition to be considered more than a sheltered 3C in the long run.
Cates needs to show he can drive a line offensively at a respectable (3C level) to be more than a defensive specialist at center.

Quote where I said defence doesn't matter. I pointed out Cates scored below the 25th percentile offensively, and your reply is "yeah but defence".

He's the perfect 4th line center. Being given 2nd line center minutes.

Also, Cates did not improve his offence from 2 seasons ago to last year, it got worse.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Quote where I said defence doesn't matter. I pointed out Cates scored below the 25th percentile offensively, and your reply is "yeah but defence".

He's the perfect 4th line center. Being given 2nd line center minutes.

Also, Cates did not improve his offence from 2 seasons ago to last year, it for worse.

Yeah but if you deliberately use information wrong and lie, then reality is different and the Flyers are brilliant.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

I love this place. Everyone thinks Frost is better than Cates. Frost signs for less than Cates. People are mad that we got a better player for less money. This is the epitome of complaining for the sake of complaining.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I love this place. Everyone thinks Frost is better than Cates. Frost signs for less than Cates. People are mad that we got a better player for less money. This is the epitome of complaining for the sake of complaining.

Think about the processes and evaluations at work.

 

[Rich Nixon]

I love this place. Everyone thinks Frost is better than Cates. Frost signs for less than Cates. People are mad that we got a better player for less money. This is the epitome of complaining for the sake of complaining.

I don't think anyone gives a shit about cap hits right now.

What irks me is that they're bridging one of their own first round picks to his f***ing D+8 year because they still haven't figured out who he is and how to use him.

 

[Beef Invictus]

They excitedly throw money at a dude who is a bottom six player in any good organization who they have overrated the whole way, then scrape and claw at the only active potential top-six player they have cooking, who is already a good middle six player and that they've underrated the whole time.

Tells you everything about how nothing has changed. The values are the same as always. They're going to continue getting everything wrong that they've always gotten wrong. Keeping the same people in charge, unsurprisingly, has not resulted in different things happening.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I don't think anyone gives a shit about cap hits right now.

What irks me is that they're bridging one of their own first round picks to his f***ing D+8 year because they still haven't figured out who he is and how to use him.

And didn't feel any urgency to do so. This is a problem because they allowed it to compound.

The complaint is that the wounds are almost always self-inflicted. This isn't Ryan Ellis shedding body parts as a defense mechanism like a lizard.

 

[Rich Nixon]

And didn't feel any urgency to do so. This is a problem because they allowed it to compound.

The complaint is that the wounds are almost always self-inflicted. This isn't Ryan Ellis shedding body parts as a defense mechanism like a lizard.

Utterly maddening. And then you get all the droolers who go "well, he was only good for 5 months and hasn't PROVEN it yet." But those 5 months were the only time he was given an opportunity to actually prove anything and he...did?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Utterly maddening. And then you get all the droolers who go "well, he was only good for 5 months and hasn't PROVEN it yet." But those 5 months were the only time he was given an opportunity to actually prove anything and he...did?

And even letting him have a basic chance to prove anything was torturous to most people running the team.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Think about the processes and evaluations at work.

Yes, two young players with similar offensive numbers and one that is inarguably better at defense got similar contracts. I know that this is sometimes forgotten, but when they sign players it is a negotiation, so both sides have to agree. I don't know what you think Morgan Frost's argument would be to make more money than Cates is, but the argument that if given a better opportunities I would have done better doesn't really fly in this or any situation. Morgan Frost Similarly, if you are the Flyers, telling Cates the only reason he had the points he had was because the Flyers put him in a better position than Frost also wouldn't be a good negotiating position to take. They are both scoring at similar rates and one guy plays better defensively. Frost hasn't proven he is worth more than what he got. You don't (or at least shouldn't) pay on what you COULD be doing in different circumstances.

I don't think anyone gives a shit about cap hits right now.

What irks me is that they're bridging one of their own first round picks to his f***ing D+8 year because they still haven't figured out who he is and how to use him.

But people are mad. They were mad before he signed when Cates got his deal and everyone was saying they were mad that Cates was going to get more.

They are bridging him because he hasn't proven otherwise. What kind of longer term deal would you expect him to get? What are some comparable players that got longer term deals?

He isn't going to sell himself short and sign for 6 years at $2 million and the Flyers aren't going to (or shouldn't) give a guy $4x6 million who has had one decent season. I know, I know, it is all the fault of the Flyers and he would have scored way more if only they would have let him! And Cates would have scored less if only the Flyers didn't put him in a better position than Frost in order to sabotage Frost's career (or something like that about hating good players or young players or small players, I am not sure which one of the self-sabotaging conspiracies this one falls in to).

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yes, two young players with similar offensive numbers and one that is inarguably better at defense got similar contracts. I know that this is sometimes forgotten, but when they sign players it is a negotiation, so both sides have to agree. I don't know what you think Morgan Frost's argument would be to make more money than Cates is, but the argument that if given a better opportunities I would have done better doesn't really fly in this or any situation. Morgan Frost Similarly, if you are the Flyers, telling Cates the only reason he had the points he had was because the Flyers put him in a better position than Frost also wouldn't be a good negotiating position to take. They are both scoring at similar rates and one guy plays better defensively. Frost hasn't proven he is worth more than what he got. You don't (or at least shouldn't) pay on what you COULD be doing in different circumstances.



But people are mad. They were mad before he signed when Cates got his deal and everyone was saying they were mad that Cates was going to get more.

They are bridging him because he hasn't proven otherwise. What kind of longer term deal would you expect him to get? What are some comparable players that got longer term deals?

He isn't going to sell himself short and sign for 6 years at $2 million and the Flyers aren't going to (or shouldn't) give a guy $4x6 million who has had one decent season. I know, I know, it is all the fault of the Flyers and he would have scored way more if only they would have let him! And Cates would have scored less if only the Flyers didn't put him in a better position than Frost in order to sabotage Frost's career (or something like that about hating good players or young players or small players, I am not sure which one of the self-sabotaging conspiracies this one falls in to).

No. I can stop you right there.

One produced at a 2C rate. The other produced at a 4C rate.

I can also remind you that every time you defend the team's management and give them this benefit of the doubt, it has ended up being wrong. It's all the same people doing all the same stuff. They don't deserve optimism.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

 

[deadhead]

Yes, two young players with similar offensive numbers and one that is inarguably better at defense got similar contracts. I know that this is sometimes forgotten, but when they sign players it is a negotiation, so both sides have to agree. I don't know what you think Morgan Frost's argument would be to make more money than Cates is, but the argument that if given a better opportunities I would have done better doesn't really fly in this or any situation. Morgan Frost Similarly, if you are the Flyers, telling Cates the only reason he had the points he had was because the Flyers put him in a better position than Frost also wouldn't be a good negotiating position to take. They are both scoring at similar rates and one guy plays better defensively. Frost hasn't proven he is worth more than what he got. You don't (or at least shouldn't) pay on what you COULD be doing in different circumstances.



But people are mad. They were mad before he signed when Cates got his deal and everyone was saying they were mad that Cates was going to get more.

They are bridging him because he hasn't proven otherwise. What kind of longer term deal would you expect him to get? What are some comparable players that got longer term deals?

He isn't going to sell himself short and sign for 6 years at $2 million and the Flyers aren't going to (or shouldn't) give a guy $4x6 million who has had one decent season. I know, I know, it is all the fault of the Flyers and he would have scored way more if only they would have let him! And Cates would have scored less if only the Flyers didn't put him in a better position than Frost in order to sabotage Frost's career (or something like that about hating good players or young players or small players, I am not sure which one of the self-sabotaging conspiracies this one falls in to).

Yeah, Both players are still unproven, Cates has to show he can raise his offense up a notch, Frost that he can score against teams that actually play defense.
Both players basically had a good 56 game stretch when they got second line minutes (Cates scored at a 3C pace, Frost at a 1C but mostly against weak teams). That's simply not a big enough sample to offer say a 6x5 deal like TK got.
No sane FO would have offered either player a long-term deal unless it was at a substantial discount, and with a rising cap, no agent would accept such a deal.

This ain't rocket science, or even advanced risk management, it's called "common sense."

 

[TB87]

Genuinely one of the best tweets ever

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah, Both players are still unproven, Cates has to show he can raise his offense up a notch, Frost that he can score against teams that actually play defense.
Both players basically had a good 56 game stretch when they got second line minutes (Cates scored at a 3C pace, Frost at a 1C but mostly against weak teams). That's simply not a big enough sample to offer say a 6x5 deal like TK got.
No sane FO would have offered either player a long-term deal unless it was at a substantial discount, and with a rising cap, no agent would accept such a deal.

This ain't rocket science, or even advanced risk management, it's called "common sense."

Frost did score against teams that can play defense. Cates has to prove he can actually score. Period.

If it's all such common basic sense, how come you and the team are always wrong? Why do you have to lie all the time?

 

[freakydallas13]

The young players need to prove themselves. Like Deslauriers. That's the kind of player you want to give term too.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

OMG... i just now finaly figured out this meme..

wow im so smert...hahaaa

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

The young players need to prove themselves. Like Deslauriers. That's the kind of player you want to give term too.

Deslauriers earned it by being a grizzled vet.

 

[volnoir]

Deslauriers earned it by being a grizzled vet.

Don't forget punching people's faces in and dragging his knuckles around.

 

[Tripod]

Frost 41 ES pts, 18 ES goals
Cates 28 ES pts, 9 ES goals

Cates gets bigger contract, Frost gets called a toilet seat

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Frost 41 ES pts, 18 ES goals
Cates 28 ES pts, 9 ES goals

Cates gets bigger contract, Frost gets called a toilet seat

Yeah, but have you stopped to consider defense?

 

[Tripod]

Oh, from the ALL IMPORTANT DEC 7TH ONWARD where stats REALLY matter:

Frost 36 ES pts....led the team
Cates 22 ES pts.....5th on the team....less than even JVR