Post-Game Talk: Montreal/Reimer defeat the Leafs....

[Mess]

Defense

2013-2014: 26th.
2012-2013: 18th.
2011-2012: 29th.

By the way, Bernier is 28th. GAA this year 2.61, Reimer was 21st. last year 2.46.

This points out a team wide regression.

GAA is a team stat.

This post is not to support any individual, but is pointing out wholistic issues with the team.

Someone is undermining team wide performance.

The Leafs are a poorly built and assembled weak defensive team and nothing has changed over time.

Look to the source and not the symptoms.

 

[Shoebottom]

Way to go Randy. Everyone knows you don't dump on your goalie cause they're head cases. You as a coach should've known that after the Detroit game. What was the point of saying that? What were you trying to achieve lol?

 

[habfaninvictoria]

It's really pathetic at this point..... Reimer loses the number 1 job, gets a chance to say "hey, I am still here guys" and he can't get up to play? Not only for this team but for every other team in the NHL, because he knows he will likely be gone after this season, and teams are watching him.

If I am another NHL team, I look at Reimer and I don't see a guy I want to be my NHL goalie.

It's sad, I liked Reimer, but.......

Start MacIntyre tomorrow, and we need the win desperately.

I don't really see how you can hang the game on him. On the first 2 goals he definitely could have had them but I'd be more angry at Kessel on the 1st goal (lets not forget Pacioretty has one of the best releases in the game), and the entire system on the 2nd.

You can blame the goalie all you want, but at some point the players in front of him and the coaches' system should be held accountable. Carlyle put the Kessel line out against Vanek at every opportunity, and yes they had great chances but thats a high risk/reward line that could be paired against our lines that don't have 2 dangerous scorers on it. Murray plays on the left and moves slightly slower than the Athabaska Glacier, yet the fastest right winger in the game isn't out against him once, despite the fact that the Leafs have the last change.

Reimer will find a job someplace else, don't worry, and he'll be marking leaf games on his calendar for years.

 

[Shoebottom]

I don't really see how you can hang the game on him. On the first 2 goals he definitely could have had them but I'd be more angry at Kessel on the 1st goal (lets not forget Pacioretty has one of the best releases in the game), and the entire system on the 2nd.

You can blame the goalie all you want, but at some point the players in front of him and the coaches' system should be held accountable. Carlyle put the Kessel line out against Vanek at every opportunity, and yes they had great chances but thats a high risk/reward line that could be paired against our lines that don't have 2 dangerous scorers on it. Murray plays on the left and moves slightly slower than the Athabaska Glacier, yet the fastest right winger in the game isn't out against him once, despite the fact that the Leafs have the last change.

Reimer will find a job someplace else, don't worry, and he'll be marking leaf games on his calendar for years.

You are right. Bad coaching all around.

 

[Daisy Jane]

(sigh). I promised myself I wasn't going to get into this today - that I was going to be a happy little Daisy - and be full of optimism. [My mistake I shouldn't have gone into last night 's thread]

No one has at any point been under the delusion that the Leafs defensive game was good. they can play it decently at points of the game, and there are breakdowns it's bad. it's horrible and it needs to be addressed. so consistently pulling out stats to show where the Leafs are in goals against, shots against, and any/every stat that is on the 'defensive side' of the puck is redundant - because we ALL. KNOW.

In regards to this game. the Leafs pretty much played extremely good hockey. Yes there was a breakaway or two, and there were turnovers. it wasn't perfect, but the team played as if they knew that they had to get at least one point. [they were actually playing as if they needed two in regulation]

Reimer let in three goals. two of which were 100 percent stoppable. it doesn't excuse [and I'm going to point out I didn't excuse] the fact that Kessel turned it over, or you let that montreal player get on a breakaway (i think it was Bourque). but I mean come on it wasn't a howitzer, it wasn't a post and in. It was high glove side, and Reimer could have and should have stopped them. Hughson said it, Simpson said it, Healey said it, and after Stock was all "it was a turnover guys seee! SEE!" he even admitted it.

that 4th goal? that wasn't the first time he let in a goal like that this season. If I could remember specifically what Buffalo game it was, I'd show you. it was the same thing - he was up against the post, and it went right through him on the short side.

At the end of the day - regardless of any/every defensive stat you want to bring up - it doesn't ignore nor should it excuse the fact that there are some pucks that need to be stopped. He didn't do it. If Bernier was in net and he let in those exact same goals, guess what I'm ripping on him too. at this point it's not a Reimer vs. Bernier debate, who is better. At this point it's not even our defense sucks, and poor poor goaltenders, we hang them out to dry, boo, sniff hoo.

This is the fact - we have a goaltender who can't track the puck properly, has consistency with his glove side, and when it boils down to it right now can not make the one save that is needed to even get to overtime when the team needs him to the most. That in a game with such magnitude for the season - Reimer let in another 3 goals in the first period - one of them 1.06 after the Leafs have tied it based off the first two goals being 100% stoppable], and then the dagger goal - after once again - The Leafs came back (2 minutes prior)]

In a game where the defense was not the 'glaring' issue. And in a game where the leafs weren't outshot. In a game that the Leafs spent as much if not more equal time in the offensive zone If this makes me part of the mob, or i'm running someone out of town, then fine. whatever, my back is broad. But Reimer cost the team the game tonight. not the defense.

 

[Gallagbi]

I don't really see how you can hang the game on him. On the first 2 goals he definitely could have had them but I'd be more angry at Kessel on the 1st goal (lets not forget Pacioretty has one of the best releases in the game), and the entire system on the 2nd.

You can blame the goalie all you want, but at some point the players in front of him and the coaches' system should be held accountable. Carlyle put the Kessel line out against Vanek at every opportunity, and yes they had great chances but thats a high risk/reward line that could be paired against our lines that don't have 2 dangerous scorers on it. Murray plays on the left and moves slightly slower than the Athabaska Glacier, yet the fastest right winger in the game isn't out against him once, despite the fact that the Leafs have the last change.

Reimer will find a job someplace else, don't worry, and he'll be marking leaf games on his calendar for years.

He allowed 3 goals on routine saves. It's hockey, there will be chances both ways. If those 4 goals were on MTLs best chances then the Leafs did more than enough defensively. 2 shots deflected in by Leafs and two weak wristers that had to go through the goalie?

 

[CanadasTeam]

Reimer will find a job someplace else, don't worry, and he'll be marking leaf games on his calendar for years.

I can''t wait for us to light him up in those games!

Make it happen Nonis

 

[ULF_55]

Gardiner and Rielly both had Price cleanly beat, but where Nyquist's shot hit the post and went in ...

By the way
Nyquist is on pace for 38 goals.
Kessel is on pace for 40 goals.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Gardiner and Rielly both had Price cleanly beat, but where Nyquist's shot hit the post and went in ...

By the way
Nyquist is on pace for 38 goals.
Kessel is on pace for 40 goals.

We knew this was a flawed team that counted too heavily on Bernier, this is what you get when you have a team of fwds and defenceman for the majority that only know one way to play. Run and Gun disguised. But we have fans that like artistic hockey as opposed to winning hockey.

I said it weeks ago, we need to retool with better 2 way players that understand how to play hockey. Remember how Team Canada played? We both touched on this. Artistic points only counts in ice dancing. Wonder when this fan base will ever learn.

 

[Mess]

(sigh). I promised myself I wasn't going to get into this today - that I was going to be a happy little Daisy - and be full of optimism. [My mistake I shouldn't have gone into last night 's thread]

No one has at any point been under the delusion that the Leafs defensive game was good. they can play it decently at points of the game, and there are breakdowns it's bad. it's horrible and it needs to be addressed. so consistently pulling out stats to show where the Leafs are in goals against, shots against, and any/every stat that is on the 'defensive side' of the puck is redundant - because we ALL. KNOW..

If everyone knows and accepts the Leafs are bad defensively then why are people surprised and or angry when the results match the statistics?

It seems that Realism (actual results) is squashing Optimism (hoping) for an alternative outcome.

Leafs fans should accept the facts that exist and go into each game realizing its likely the Leafs are going to give up 3 or more goals because their team and goalie stats suggest that is the case.

This game played out exactly as expected Leafs giving up more than 3 goals against as we all expected they would and only win if their offense could outscore their mistakes.. However both Price and Montreal have a <3 gaa so the odds were against us.

Moneyball could have predicted a 4-3 Montreal win as the most likely statistical outcome prior to puck drop.

 

[rrc1967]

(sigh). I promised myself I wasn't going to get into this today - that I was going to be a happy little Daisy - and be full of optimism. [My mistake I shouldn't have gone into last night 's thread]

No one has at any point been under the delusion that the Leafs defensive game was good. they can play it decently at points of the game, and there are breakdowns it's bad. it's horrible and it needs to be addressed. so consistently pulling out stats to show where the Leafs are in goals against, shots against, and any/every stat that is on the 'defensive side' of the puck is redundant - because we ALL. KNOW.

In regards to this game. the Leafs pretty much played extremely good hockey. Yes there was a breakaway or two, and there were turnovers. it wasn't perfect, but the team played as if they knew that they had to get at least one point. [they were actually playing as if they needed two in regulation]

Reimer let in three goals. two of which were 100 percent stoppable. it doesn't excuse [and I'm going to point out I didn't excuse] the fact that Kessel turned it over, or you let that montreal player get on a breakaway (i think it was Bourque). but I mean come on it wasn't a howitzer, it wasn't a post and in. It was high glove side, and Reimer could have and should have stopped them. Hughson said it, Simpson said it, Healey said it, and after Stock was all "it was a turnover guys seee! SEE!" he even admitted it.

that 4th goal? that wasn't the first time he let in a goal like that this season. If I could remember specifically what Buffalo game it was, I'd show you. it was the same thing - he was up against the post, and it went right through him on the short side.

At the end of the day - regardless of any/every defensive stat you want to bring up - it doesn't ignore nor should it excuse the fact that there are some pucks that need to be stopped. He didn't do it. If Bernier was in net and he let in those exact same goals, guess what I'm ripping on him too. at this point it's not a Reimer vs. Bernier debate, who is better. At this point it's not even our defense sucks, and poor poor goaltenders, we hang them out to dry, boo, sniff hoo.

This is the fact - we have a goaltender who can't track the puck properly, has consistency with his glove side, and when it boils down to it right now can not make the one save that is needed to even get to overtime when the team needs him to the most. That in a game with such magnitude for the season - Reimer let in another 3 goals in the first period - one of them 1.06 after the Leafs have tied it based off the first two goals being 100% stoppable], and then the dagger goal - after once again - The Leafs came back (2 minutes prior)]

In a game where the defense was not the 'glaring' issue. And in a game where the leafs weren't outshot. In a game that the Leafs spent as much if not more equal time in the offensive zone If this makes me part of the mob, or i'm running someone out of town, then fine. whatever, my back is broad. But Reimer cost the team the game tonight. not the defense.

not that i disagree with you.

but this makes me wonder if you would state of the same about any player that made 3 mistakes or errors in the game.

when goaltenders make mistakes it goes into the back of the net, and people act as if it's inexcusable. when players make countless small or sometimes not small errors of judgement; they are never held to the same standard.

you state it actually yourself .. the team had defensive lapses, led to scoring chances, breakaways - however, they aren't held accountable for far more than reimer's three errors.

something to think about perhaps.

btw, tracking the puck is very much a mental thing - if you are zoned in, it's like everything slows down, tracking becomes easy. if you're off; its much harder to do so .. aka "fighting the puck". you can't get to this level of hockey without being able to zone in at all and track a puck, however it's easy to lose that if your game is off. something players don't have to worry about. Reimer's also had to deal with three different goaltender coaches during his professional career. something that is not that easy as well.

the team lives and dies by the mistakes they make. good teams will win even if the goaltender is having an off night. it's not up to the goaltender on a good team to steal every game.

 

[ULF_55]

If everyone knows and accepts the Leafs are bad defensively then why are people surprised and or angry when the results match the statistics?

It seems that Realism (actual results) is squashing Optimism (hoping) for an alternative outcome.

Leafs fans should accept the facts that exist and go into each game realizing its likely the Leafs are going to give up 3 or more goals because their team and goalie stats suggest that is the case.

This game played out exactly as expected Leafs giving up more than 3 goals against as we all expected they would and only win if their offense could outscore their mistakes.. However both Price and Montreal have a <3 gaa so the odds were against us.

Moneyball could have predicted a 4-3 Montreal win as the most likely statistical outcome prior to puck drop.

It could be that some equate save percentage with more than just a goalie stat.

Bernier being 26th. in GAA amongst those who qualify is a better indication of team performance. Reimer had a better GAA when he was the starter last year.

If Bernier > Reimer
then
2013 Team > 2014 Team

 

[Gallagbi]

If everyone knows and accepts the Leafs are bad defensively then why are people surprised and or angry when the results match the statistics?

It seems that Realism (actual results) is squashing Optimism (hoping) for an alternative outcome.

Leafs fans should accept the facts that exist and go into each game realizing its likely the Leafs are going to give up 3 or more goals because their team and goalie stats suggest that is the case.

This game played out exactly as expected Leafs giving up more than 3 goals against as we all expected they would and only win if their offense could outscore their mistakes.. However both Price and Montreal have a <3 gaa so the odds were against us.

Moneyball could have predicted a 4-3 Montreal win as the most likely statistical outcome prior to puck drop.

People expected Reimer to give up 3 weak goals against last night and post another sub .900 save%?

 

[ACC1224]

I don't understand why people are so angry or surprised at the Leafs struggles. The warning signs have been there all season.

They're in the bottom 5 in goals against as one of the weakest defensive teams. They're on pace to set a new record for most shots against in a season this year. They have a team goals against average > 3 goals a game and a negative goal differential.

James Reimer has a 3.32 GAA (47th ranked).

So when the Leafs give up 3 or more goals in a game its expected as they've done it all season. This game was no different and in fact exactly what the numbers suggested would happen before the puck was even dropped.

They didn't struggle last night the Goalie did. They were the far better Team for the majority of the game.

I believe they'd have won the last 4 with Bernier in net.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't understand why people are so angry or surprised at the Leafs struggles. The warning signs have been there all season.

They're in the bottom 5 in goals against as one of the weakest defensive teams. They're on pace to set a new record for most shots against in a season this year. They have a team goals against average > 3 goals a game and a negative goal differential.

James Reimer has a 3.32 GAA (47th ranked).

So when the Leafs give up 3 or more goals in a game its expected as they've done it all season. This game was no different and in fact exactly what the numbers suggested would happen before the puck was even dropped.

This teams flaws have been right there for all to see all year long. There were a few of us who were saying from the start that there are big problems but the optimists here kept saying stuff like "we won, that's all that matters" and "but we're 2nd in the East" and so on.

Win a few games and they will all be back too you watch. Makinaw will be telling us how he knew it all along, Delicious Dangles (remember him, among other things he told us that the Leafs would probably have a positive goal differential by the end of the season ) will be back telling us how well we match up against Boston etc. Then we'll be hearing how we only have to beat one team in the West in the final (true but irrelevant), how no team in the East "scares us" ...

The fact is, that the Leafs aren't as bad as they have played lately, nor are they as good as their record in the 20 games or so before the break would indicate. This is a mediocre team. If not for elite goaltending we would be near the bottom of the standings. It's been like that since the first game of the year, and it will be like that if we miss the playoffs. And, it will still be like that even if we make the playoffs and win a round or two.

I don't really see how you can hang the game on him. On the first 2 goals he definitely could have had them but I'd be more angry at Kessel on the 1st goal (lets not forget Pacioretty has one of the best releases in the game), and the entire system on the 2nd.

You can blame the goalie all you want, but at some point the players in front of him and the coaches' system should be held accountable. Carlyle put the Kessel line out against Vanek at every opportunity, and yes they had great chances but thats a high risk/reward line that could be paired against our lines that don't have 2 dangerous scorers on it. Murray plays on the left and moves slightly slower than the Athabaska Glacier, yet the fastest right winger in the game isn't out against him once, despite the fact that the Leafs have the last change.

Reimer will find a job someplace else, don't worry, and he'll be marking leaf games on his calendar for years.

Well I think that last nights loss was largely Reimer's fault but most other losses were not. Nevertheless he is the one who gets unfairly blamed all the time. I haven't seen a Leaf goalie get hung out to dry like this the days when Bester and Wregget were the targets in the shooting gallery.

Way to go Randy. Everyone knows you don't dump on your goalie cause they're head cases. You as a coach should've known that after the Detroit game. What was the point of saying that? What were you trying to achieve lol?

This!

Dumping on Reimer like he did was not only a disgraceful thing to do, but it was also just plain dumb. If I was in charge, that would be the final straw and the decision to fire Randy would be made. The only question would be do you finish the year with him, or let his head roll now. I would be inclined to do it now frankly!

 

[HamiltonNHL]

This is the fact - we have a goaltender who can't track the puck properly.

When Reimer was playing better ... did he do a better job of this ?
Anyone ?
It's really bad lately.

 

[dubey]

I don't really see how you can hang the game on him. On the first 2 goals he definitely could have had them but I'd be more angry at Kessel on the 1st goal (lets not forget Pacioretty has one of the best releases in the game), and the entire system on the 2nd.

You can blame the goalie all you want, but at some point the players in front of him and the coaches' system should be held accountable. Carlyle put the Kessel line out against Vanek at every opportunity, and yes they had great chances but thats a high risk/reward line that could be paired against our lines that don't have 2 dangerous scorers on it. Murray plays on the left and moves slightly slower than the Athabaska Glacier, yet the fastest right winger in the game isn't out against him once, despite the fact that the Leafs have the last change.

Reimer will find a job someplace else, don't worry, and he'll be marking leaf games on his calendar for years.

LOL

Last sentence of this post is almost as funny as the first sentence

 

[ULF_55]

They didn't struggle last night the Goalie did. They were the far better Team for the majority of the game.

I believe they'd have won the last 4 with Bernier in net.

I believe Detroit wins with Zetterberg and Datsyuk in the line-up, even if Bernier was in net.

Too bad, teams have to adjust, call up viable alternatives.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Interesting stat I heard on Leafs lunch, NHL goalies do not keep save % stats. They keep stats on shots that goalies are not expected to save.

The goalies that average goalies tend not to save are the better goalies in the league. Save % is a deceptive stat. Most goalies will stop a 40 ft slapper unscreened.

Bernier is a top goalie because he makes the he should not be blamed save more than Reimer. This is what separates the winning goalies from the average ones.

 

[Gallagbi]

They didn't struggle last night the Goalie did. They were the far better Team for the majority of the game.

I believe they'd have won the last 4 with Bernier in net.

There's no doubt they were the better team last night. They didn't even need Bernier level goaltending last night, below average NHL would have sufficed.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

It was only a little over a week ago he stole a game against the LA Kings coming off the bench cold... how short some peoples memories are

Lmao. He has 4 wins in his last 18 starts and you pick the one time he played well in god knows how long as a reason to defend him. Just gtfo.

Reimer had that one amazing game vs LA, but other than that, he's been pretty bad even before that LA game. He's just lost out there, no confidence, second guessing every shot, can't find his rebounds, everything a goalie can be doing wrong, he's doing it.

@TieClark: it would appear the shorter memory is yours. Reimer needs to hang up the skates for the rest of the season. Take a break, get traded, and rebuild elsewhere. It was cruel to play him last night, and would be lunacy to play him tonight. For his own sake.

 

[leafstilldeath*]

I don't really see how you can hang the game on him. On the first 2 goals he definitely could have had them but I'd be more angry at Kessel on the 1st goal (lets not forget Pacioretty has one of the best releases in the game), and the entire system on the 2nd.

You can blame the goalie all you want, but at some point the players in front of him and the coaches' system should be held accountable. Carlyle put the Kessel line out against Vanek at every opportunity, and yes they had great chances but thats a high risk/reward line that could be paired against our lines that don't have 2 dangerous scorers on it. Murray plays on the left and moves slightly slower than the Athabaska Glacier, yet the fastest right winger in the game isn't out against him once, despite the fact that the Leafs have the last change.

Reimer will find a job someplace else, don't worry, and he'll be marking leaf games on his calendar for years.

You are right. Bad coaching all around.

Yup! Agree with everything here.


A hab, a bruin and a leaf fan agree

Look at what Carlyle is doing.

 

[rrc1967]

When Reimer was playing better ... did he do a better job of this ?
Anyone ?
It's really bad lately.

he has yes. it's a tough adjustment for a goaltender to be playing nearly every game (like reimer was prior to this season) and getting into a rhythm and a zone, and then basically hardly playing over a 3 month period of time to be turned around and relied on heavily.

he's clearly not in a zone and fighting the puck. doesn't' make him a "bad goaltender" like some are saying in here, just one that is struggling.

between coaching and teammates and simply working through it goaltenders usually get out of this - but the leafs don't have that luxury nor skill to compensate.

 

[leafs in five]

We knew this was a flawed team that counted too heavily on Bernier, this is what you get when you have a team of fwds and defenceman for the majority that only know one way to play. Run and Gun disguised. But we have fans that like artistic hockey as opposed to winning hockey.

I said it weeks ago, we need to retool with better 2 way players that understand how to play hockey. Remember how Team Canada played? We both touched on this. Artistic points only counts in ice dancing. Wonder when this fan base will ever learn.

what role do you think the fan base plays in assembling a team?

also, what makes this team different than the one that played "winning hockey" last season? when we only lost guys who don't play winning hockey? who only produce when they're playing for non-winning teams/coaches? you spent a whole summer talking up the Leafs as a winning team. and here they are.

 

[Espher]

There's no doubt they were the better team last night. They didn't even need Bernier level goaltending last night, below average NHL would have sufficed.

We might have to make a trade to get below average goaltending with how things have been since the break.